I am forever irritated by drivers who indicate badly or not at all, but after driving an Astra pool car for a number of weeks I am wondering whether some of this is down to poor car design.
I can not get used to the new Astra's indicator stalk which doesn't rest up/down when indicating right/respectively. I have no problems with my own car, which paradoxically is a Zafira. But registered in 2000, my Zafira does have an indicator stalk that parks in the up/down position when signalling.
When leaving roundabouts in the Astra, having indicated left, I never know whether the indicator has cancelled itself or not. On several occasions I though it had not cancelled, then inadvertently found myself indicating right because in fact it had cancelled itself (the audio indicator clicking level is very dim so that doesn't help when road noise is added in). On other occasions I thought the indicator had cancelled, then noticed that it hadn't and I was still signalling left. A similar problem arises when changing lanes on motorways, which must also annoy the drivers around me - and my worst fear is that it could prove to be dangerous.
So now, when driving the Astra, I find myself continuously taking my eyes off the road after I've indicated, having to look down to see if the indicator is still on or not. My old Zafira allows me to feel whether the indicator is still engaged without taking my eyes of the road.
Why has Vauxhall adopted this style of indicator stalk? There seems to be nothing to gain by it and everything to lose. When I eventually replace my Zafira this is one thing that would put me off buying another.
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I have had an Astra twice, as a hire car, and I totally agree with the above post! The indicator mechanism is badly thought out and the repeater is way too quiet. The sort of small niggly feature that would put me off buying one! Like the LHD wiper layout on my 307 which I didn't notice during a test-drive and which wasn't pointed out to me, of course!
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 08/03/2008 at 12:01
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As you all know, I usually laud progress, and berate luddites - but in this case, Vauxhall's design is little short of stupid.
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When leaving roundabouts in the Astra having indicated left I never know whether the indicator has cancelled itself or not. the audio indicator clicking level is very dim
Maybe the sounder is faulty? The Astras I've driven have always been audible enough to hear above the road noise.
A similar problem arises when changing lanes on motorways
Not at all. Just briefly tap the stalk and the indicators will flash 3 or 4 times and self cancel. If you ever want to manually cancel the indicators tap the stalk in the same direction that you're currently indicating and if you have been a bit heavy handed then you won't end up indicating the other direction by accident.
I find myself continuously taking my eyes off the road after I've indicated having to look down to see if the indicator is still on or not.
A bit of an exaggeration me thinks. A quick glance is all that is required to see if the indicator light is still flashing. Takes no longer than occasionally looking to see if any other warning lights have come on - alternator, low oil pressure/brake fluid, and the like.
Why has Vauxhall adopted this style of indicator stalk?
Not only Vauxhall. BMW, Merc, and a few other manufacturers as well.
Personally I have no problem with them.
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It's one of those things where you need to have read the manual. These are on other makes too these days, after-all, it's just a VDO part, not Vauxhall-specific. Having said that in it's defence, I prefer the more mechanical indicator stalk.
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>>"Maybe the sounder is faulty?"
All of the Astras I have driven are the same, and it's perfectly audible when stationary with the radio off but not when driving down a noisy motorway with the radio on normal audible level.
>>"Just briefly tap the stalk and the indicators will flash 3 or 4 times and self cancel."
Yes I do realise that but what if I want the indicator to flash more or fewer than three times? Three isn't always enough and if you tap it you can't easily cancel indication if the road conditions suddenly change (such as another vehicle moving over that I was going to overtake) - in that case an attempt to cancel either cancels (if you do it before 3 flashes) or registers indicator flashes in the opposite direction if done after 3 flashes - clearly I don't want to be counting the number of flashes! At least I have to keep my finger on the stalk of my Zafira for "temporary indicating" like that and the indicator quickly cancels when I take my hand off it. The "tap" seems to be aimed at lazy drivers who can't be bothered to put their indicator off after indicating to change lanes and isn't always suitable as I've described.
>>"A quick glance is all that is required"
Exactly - a glance! Why should I be glancing down at all especially when my manoeuvre has merited indicating implying that I should have my full attention on the road? A glance could be the difference in hitting or braking for a child on the road.
"Not only Vauxhall. BMW, Merc, and a few other manufacturers as well."
So why have they adopted this? What advantage is there? Of course that could explain why many BMW and Merc drivers don't use their indicators when overtaking, turning right at roundabouts etc.. which was my original point about bad indicating. Surely they can't all be incompetent drivers? But thanks for the warning- I won't be purchasing any other makes that use this type of stalk unless they are able to fit the safer old type.
"Personally I have no problem with them"
Did you have a problem with the old type? If not, what is there to gain with this sort?
(I'm assuming of course you always indicate when changing lanes, when turning on and off roundabouts etc otherwise the argument falls apart.) And as I'm obviously not the only one who has a problem with them what's the disadvantage of the old type to you or do you actually prefer this type?
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>Yes I do realise that but what if I want the indicator to flash more or fewer than three
>times? Three isn't always enough and if you tap it you can't easily cancel indication if the
>road conditions suddenly change (such as another vehicle moving over that I was going to
>overtake)
What ever happene to MIRROR SIGNAL MANOUVER?
It appears you must SIGNAL, manouver, oops, mirror, cancel manouver, cancel signal
>The "tap" seems to be aimed at lazy drivers who can't be
>bothered to put their indicator off after indicating to change lanes and isn't always suitable >as I've described.
Not at all, I check my mirrors, judge the speed of the traffic, if it's safe to change lanes I tap the indicator which flashes three times giving an indication to traffic that I'm changing lanes.
perhaps you're just too lazy to work out how to use new technology - luddite!
Do you think the same of ABS, disc brakes and power steering?
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perhaps you're just too lazy to work out how to use new technology - luddite!
Less of the personal insults please. DD, BR Moderator.
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Hm, I found this 'different' when first I got my Astra H, but you very soon adapt and have no problems. The main thing is that it needs a lighter touch than the 'old style' indicator - once you learn that the 'problems' go away. Benefits? Not huge, but the stalk always returning to the same position actually starts to feel 'better' when you adapt to the car - drive something else and you're trying to find it to cancel indicators!
It's far less of a problem that the overloaded indicator stalk you get on a Mercedes, for example. Rented one the other week and was dismayed by how much is controlled on one stalk. That to me is bad design!
JS
Edited by John S on 08/03/2008 at 17:22
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I've been driving these Astras for around 6 months now and they still irritate me. I decided to give them a good innings to see if I got used to them but I haven't and I can only conclude that those who think they're fine must be committing some indicator offences (either mis-signalling or not signalling at all from time to time).
Here's one question I'd like to hear answered from drivers who don't have a problem with them:
If you're in Lane 2 of a motorway and tap the indicator to pull out into Lane 3 but then the car you were going to ovetake moves over into Lane 1 and you decide you don't need to move out into Lane 3 after all, how do you know if the indicator will cancel or not? Do you count three flashes? Or do you not bother and just leave the indicator flashing right till it cancels itself, thus annoying any cars behind you in Lane 3?
Edited by Gordyfin on 08/03/2008 at 19:31
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You can turn them off.
I wouldn't be waiting in lane 2 with my indicator flashing beyond 2. Spot space - indicate - go.
A light touch down and pull back in, or cancel and keep going.
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Here's one question I'd like to hear answered from drivers who don't have a problem with them:
If you're in Lane 2 of a motorway and tap the indicator to pull out into Lane 3 but then the car you were going to ovetake moves over into Lane 1 and you decide you don't need to move out into Lane 3 after all how do you know if the indicator will cancel or not? Do you count three flashes? Or do you not bother and just leave the indicator flashing right till it cancels itself thus annoying any cars behind you in Lane 3?>>
Easy peasy, pudding and pie. You just tap the indicator stalk in the same direction again. And as mentioned earlier, looking at the dash to see the visual warning is no different to looking at the other warning lights to see if you're still indicating or not. You can do it out of the corner of your eye without taking your eyes fully off the road.
Besides all that, the indicator system has a built in 'noise detection system' - in that the faster you go the louder the audible tick tock gets because of the increased road noise and associated speed.
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Hm I found this 'different' when first I got my Astra H but you very soon adapt and have no problems. The main thing is that it needs a lighter touch than the 'old style' indicator - once you learn that the 'problems' go away.
Exactly. It's a doddle once you get the hang of it - which should very little time indeed.
When I revert back to a car with a 'traditional' indicator stalk, the first thing I miss is the lane change flash when you only need to tap the stalk lightly. I find myself tapping the stalk only to find the indicators going off straight away.
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Understand that once you've got them you can learn to use them. But do they actualy have a selling point?
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What a defeatist and worthless post. More like indicates a passion for pointless whinging and whining. I adapted to the stalk in my H after about 10 seconds of getting behind the wheel. Suggest you stay off the road altogether if you can't get to grips with a simple plastic stalk next to the steering wheel.
Anyone familar with the scene in the film "Spinal Tap" where the ham does not fit on the bread...?
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Minis have got these now, like other BMWs. I can't see the point of it - the VW/Audi system is the best in my book - but as De Smythe says you should get used to it. SWMBO and I have had no problems with it in her new Mini Cooper.
(Incidentally although we both loved her previous Mini One, the new Cooper is a huge advance in lots of ways. I'll report back after we've put some miles on it.)
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The Vauxhall indicator design (same applies to wipers, main beam, too) might be "advanced", "cool" "avant garde" but it is a pain for the following reasons:
1. It is weird and unexpected. Imagine a steering wheel that you could only move in bursts of 4 inches to the left or right, or a brake pedal which "reset" itself without actually moving back. Add automatic wipers and headlights, a sprinkling of voice-operated controls, keyless entry, automatic cruise control with automatic distance regulator and a Scenic parking brake and we have the self-driving car (from Hell).
2. It is counter-intuitive and hard to adjust to, making life difficult for drivers who regularly switch cars. Scenic drivers forget to set the handbrake when driving their partner's car and Bang! there goes another garden wall.
3. If it is such a brilliant idea, it should become an "industry standard", but it isn't: relatively few cars have this system. Go back 25 years when European car makers gradually switched indicator stalk to the left and wipers to the right - it is now universal (except for the Koreans; someone ought to tell them!)
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Go back 25 years when European car makers gradually switched indicator stalk to the left and wipers to the right - it is now universal (except for the Koreans; someone ought to tell them!)
Correction, when they switched indicators on RHD cars to the left, LHD cars were already set up that way. It's universal because it saves money, not because it is better. The Koreans are happy to put the indicators in the correct place for RHD, and no doubt do the same for LHD (ie move them to the left).
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"LHD cars were already set up that way."
Correction again: Peugeots of the period (104 and 504 at least) had indicators on the right in both LHD and RHD markets (don't get me started on windscreen wipers with 1970s Leylands, "wrong on both sides"...) My point was that standardisation is ultimately inevitable - hence A-B-C pedal layouts - although it's usually to save money. I just hope that these ridiculous minor controls die out as a passing fad rather than become universal.
Let's imagine for a moment that the whole world had changed to driving on the same side, say just after WW1: now that really would have been progress... (then metrication, plugs and sockets, light bulbs, blah blah blah...)
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"LHD cars were already set up that way." Correction again: Peugeots of the period (104 and 504 at least) had indicators on the right in both LHD and RHD markets
Correction (and underlying points) accepted ;-)
Interesting, I didn't know that about the Peugeots. So that's something I've learned today - as well as not starting a post with 'Correction' if I am going to get my facts wrong.....I'll blame it on posting at 5.40am :-)
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This indicator stalk design is progress.
progress (in this case; and many others) is advancing backwards!
They have modified a system that worked well, everybody could use, and it didnt need modifying.
Edited by yorkiebar on 12/03/2008 at 19:18
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I'd forgotten that quirk of the 104. Same switch, when pulled back, operated the horn.
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And while we're on the subject: what's the weirdest switch location ever used?
Wash-wipe controls seemed to be almost a subject of shame - definitely something of a religious or Freudian nature there, maybe guilty associations with "cleansing/purifying"... with manufacturers hiding them away on the floor (1970s Fords), centre console (FD Vauxhall VX 4/90), driver's armrest (Corvette)... or spitefully separating them into three separate controls (Sweeney-era Granadas: washer button on dashboard, end of indicator stalk to start wipers, toggle switch half way down stalk for slow/fast setting.)
Think that's it for wipers. Now - HANDBRAKES!.....
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Just back from a breezy day in Germany with an an Astra hire car. Still couldn't get on with the indicators! Breezing down motorways signalling left to overtake and right to pull in and probably looking like some sort of Christams tree as the lights flashed wrongly as I over compensated while cancelling! I am sure I would get used to it if I owned one but on my experience so far I wouldn't bother buying one.
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Hi, totally agree with the thread.
I admit I've only had my Astra 3 days but I feel like a total idiot with the indicators. Sure, I'll figure it out and get used to them but the issue is that surely someone else has to drive my ca they'll be going through the same thing. I'm finding myself looking down to check if I operated the stalk to the correct position or if I overshot.
Why fix what isn't broke? My last car was a Golf and they have it spot on. It's a conventional stalk operation but if the stick isn't move the the retention point only three flashes are given. Simple and effective. Friends driving the car commented how clever they though it was. I now fear that the same friends will be using harsh language at me if I ask them to drive us! How am I supposed to have a drink?
I know I'm not alone because I see many other Astra driving looking equally frustrated as they drive around in the disco.
Edited by Webmaster on 02/04/2008 at 21:14
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