...the ONLY justified genuine crime scene closure I have seen this year
in my view, it was the glasgow airport incident that met that critierion.
the london haymarket closure was not justified, as was clearly demonstrated by the fact that a similar car was inadvertently, but quite safely, towed away from regent street without destroying any so called "vital forensic evidence".
|
>> ...the ONLY justified genuine crime scene closure I have seen this year in my view it was the glasgow airport incident that met that critierion. the london haymarket closure was not justified as was clearly demonstrated by the fact that a similar car was inadvertently but quite safely towed away from regent street without destroying any so called "vital forensic evidence".
Err are we are talking Motorway closures?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
|
|
|
"apparently their insurance did not cover missed flights due to motorway closures."
They should find insurance which does then. My policy covers me in full for delays getting to departure airport, whatever the cause. In this day and age I'd always ensure this was the case if I was going some distance to an airport, port etc.
The M25 was closed for so long because this also became a crime scene as one of the wagon driver's was injured. Problem is if a half job is done and someone gets off a charge on a technicality the police are slated. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
|
.. and someone gets off a charge on a technicality the police are slated ..
so how many drivers have been prosecuted, and how many of them succesfully, as a result of the "forensic evidence" gathered at the scene after the multitude of motorway closures we have had in the past few years?
|
.. and someone gets off a charge on a technicality the police are slated ..
and to add to my questions above, more importanly how many have got off on a technicality which was due to police not having closed the motorway?
there is simply no data to justify any of these hasty "close the road" responses whenever a death occurs on a motorway.
|
|
|
'incidents' among the displaced traffic
It's quite feasible that the traffic jammed up elsewhere will actually cause there to be less incidents than usual.
|
|
|
|
My policy covers me in full for delays getting to departure airport whatever the cause.
I'll bet anything you like that it doesn't:
a) Cover in full (normal limit is £1000 per person, which may or may not be enough
b) Cover the delay whatever the cause - all insurance policies are full of exclusions.
M&S is one of the few that will cover both the vehicle you're in, plus accidents or breakdowns that cause an unexpected delay. Most only cover you if you're on public transport.
However even the M&S policy doesn't mention cover in the event of the road being closed due to a murder investigation.
|
|
M40 now expected to be closed until at least 4pm.
|
According to news reports M40 is closed southbound from junctions 14 to 12 and northbound from junctions ten to 14.
So the police are saying that four junctions northbound and two southbound is all a crime scene - How many miles is that ? I'm sorry but I think that is completely over the top.
Yes , if its a crime scene close or cone off the carriageway where it happened a quarter mile or so if absolutely necessary but who is responsible for these costly decisions which affect thousands of people?
I have been slagged off as insenitive for expressing such opinions in similar threads where people have died but really I feel that something has to be done.
|
I have been slagged off as insenitive for expressing such opinions in similar threads where people have died but really I feel that something has to be done.
You're not the only one... What about all the poor drivers trapped on the motorway by this "crime scene" - that about a thousand cars had already driven through by the time they closed the road.
Reports say that the Red Cross were distributing food and water to the unfortunates while they waited until the early hours to be "released."
It can not be beyond the wit of the police to search one lane, or the hard shoulder, then let the blocked traffic filter through - their little ego trips need stamping on.
|
Are we not in danger of losing our sense of perspective here?
Oh the information we have, it seems that someone was murdered. There is, therefore, a murderer with a gun somewhere who has yet to be caught.
The road was presumably busy. The shot motorcyclist presumably came off his bike but fortunately seems not to have caused any other collision in doing so (you can imagine it: bike and rider skidding across the motorway, drivers trying to dodge round, multiple collisions) which is extremely fortunate.
This is a large crime scene and therefore a large area to be covered. The police do not have limitless resources. For once, some might say, they are chasing "real criminals". But most of this thread is - I'm sorry to say - just carping. Losing a holiday is sad, but it's better that losing a life. Even HJ's utilitarian approach is morally dubious (as well as being incapable of assessment).
|
It would be interesting to have been a fly on the Police wall yesterday, as they discussed the relative merits of holding a large number of uninvolved travellers for about ten hours without meals or loos.
I'd like to hear their arguments in favour, and to have heard a medical professional being consulted on the associated risks. While I'm certain that those held up were sympathetic, I can be sure that my sense of humour would have evaporated before the ten hours were up.
The moral of the story is to take provisions for twelve hours even if just hopping down the motorway for a couple of junctions.
|
|
well this is the 21st century not dixon of dock green you cant close important roads like the m40 cause a greaser takes a bullet, how many shootings in london recently have meant the capital coming to a stand still cause of a fuedal slaying? its not on ( sympathy to the bereeveds loved ones by the way)
|
I agree with HJ, ly and others. Why does the road have to be closed in both directions for ten hours, with huge inconvenience and possible risk to many? What are the police hoping to find on the road? An ejected cartridge case already flattened by a passing car? Some blood spots?
A car is being sought after witness statements. Close the road by all means, and keep two lanes closed if you must, but resume traffic flow with alternative routes suggested to approaching traffic as soon as possible. I am sure this would be done in most other civilised countries. This sort of thing is aggressively self-important and punitive behaviour which is very clearly the doing of politicians rather than the police who I am sure generally want to get on with things. Trouble is they are under orders filtered from the government through layers of, well, stuff.
|
.. Why does the road have to be closed in both directions for ten hours, ..
lud, correction, it was not ten hours - it is nearly 30 hours. incident happened at around 2.20 pm yesterday.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/...m
|
Are we not in danger of losing our sense of perspective here? ...
in reply to groovymucker:
stuff and nonsense.
yes the police, and the legislators in the uk seem to have lost their senses and senses of perspective completely, long long ago.
what is so special about deaths on motorways that the procedures are so different to any other location? wahat is so special about a murder on the motorway? people lose their lives due to tragic circumstances, accidental or deliberate or natural. yes it is right that the cause of death should be investigated and criminals brought to justice. but not at any cost. yes we sympathise and feel sorry for the loss of life of innocent victims. but that does not mean we cannot make rational decisions on how best to get on with day to day living.
you can bet that the police will never reveal that 99.999% of the time they are unable to justify the closures - because they find zero "forensic" evidence of any significance to their enquiry, and what they do find in some instances that is of any use is usually all found within the first 30 minutes of an incident.
these days actions are taken without regard to the consequences to the the majority of people and sometimes consequences for the whole country. no other country in the world follows these idiotic procedures. (but then the british way is the best, isn't it. it is all the rest of the world that has got it wrong, haven't they?)
another example of this mentality is the "security precautions" on carrying liquids on board aircraft. as always, new restrcitons are quickly brought in but then never reviewed and removed once the threat has long long gone.
also witness current foot-mouth hysteria and the stupidity of banning livestock movement in england, but a not in wales or scotland. so a farmer whose land straddles the border is in a real pickle or if he is astute he/she can easily bypass the stupid restrictions.
get a sense of perspective. stop destroying the economy of the uk by stupid rules and regulations.
actually, gordon brown agrees on the need to change british institutional behaviour to reflect a more "risk" based approach. he has gone on record to say that he would like decisions to be made on the basis of risk assesments about the costs and benefits of legislation and the actions taken by bureacrats.
|
I get the impression some people connect the road closure with the sanctity of human life. All credit to them for being moved and horrified by a murder, indeed by any death. But it isn't a realistic attitude, and the compassion is misdirected.
Someone who has died in an accident or been murdered is dead. Nothing can help them. And if we really believed that all human life was too precious to risk we would not have automobiles or roads, which kill human beings in small but constant numbers that do mount up over a year.
But we do have these things, and aircraft and household machines and staircases and trains which all kill people.
It isn't just the economy that suffers from this boorish and secretive posturing, it is the social climate at large.
|
[To be] moved and horrified by a murder indeed by any death ... isn't a realistic attitude [when applied to road closure] and the compassion is misdirected. Someone who has died in an accident or been murdered is dead. Nothing can help them. And if we really believed that all human life was too precious to risk we would not have automobiles or roads which kill human beings in small but constant numbers that do mount up over a year.
I really don't understand this assertion, if I have understood it correctly. Lud may be referring to the police who closed the road. We still have to maintain a balance. If it had been one of our loved ones instead of - it seems - a Hell's Angel, would we be so unconcerned? (I pray in aid the notional family member not because it's a good point, of course, but because I wonder whether we're losing our perspective because of who was killed.)
|
If it had been one of our loved ones instead of - it seems - a Hell's Angel would we be so unconcerned?
GroovyMucker, who said anything suggesting or implying unconcern or lack of concern?
It's just, why should concern result in a 30 hour road closure? There is no rational connection.
|
Well I suppose that having HJ comment adversely, and IMO absolutely correctly, on this scandal of lengthy motorway closures we might be saved from the thread being locked - which is the normal fate of threads on this subject; perhaps PG is on holiday?
Why does Britain, almost alone in the world it seems, allow Motorways to be closed for inordinate amounts of time.
As far as I can see it is totally a Police initiative that started a few years ago and seems to be allowed to continue unchecked without any sense of balance.
It is high time their political masters made them accountable for this stupidity; and gave us, the motoring public, a rational explanation why their policy has changed.
Before the usual accusations of being anti-police arise, please look back through any post of mine over the past 5 years or so, to see any examples to support that accusation.
|
It is high time their political masters made them accountable for this stupidity; and gave us the motoring public a rational explanation why their policy has changed.
I believe that this has been answered on a previous thread about Police closing roads for investigations. The Human Rights Act 1998 places a duty on the Police to investigate cases thoroughly and effectively when the crime involves a breach of the victims rights.
I assume that the Police would point the finger at the politicians for passing legislation without thinking through the consequences.
|
I believe that this has been answered on a previous thread about Police closing roads for investigations. The Human Rights Act 1998 places a duty on the Police to investigate cases thoroughly and effectively when the crime involves a breach of the victims rights. I assume that the Police would point the finger at the politicians for passing legislation without thinking through the consequences.
I don't know if that is the reason or not - certainly I have never seen any authoritative statement to that effect.
However even if true there has to be balance. Muggings, burglary etc etc all involve human rights being breached and for some of those crimes you are lucky to get more than a crime number issued.
Why is only for incidents on roads that such thorough and painstaking and time consuming investigations are deemed necessary?
|
what is so special about deaths on motorways that the procedures are so different to any other location? wahat is so special about a murder on the motorway?
Nothing. And the police are treating it the same. CSI is not real life.
you can bet that the police will never reveal that 99.999% of the time they are unable to justify the closures - because they find zero "forensic" evidence of any significance to their enquiry and what they do find in some instances that is of any use is usually all found within the first 30 minutes of an incident.
Come on now: that's just wild surmise "supported" by bogus statistics and unsupported by any actual evidence.
liquids on board aircraft ... foot-mouth ... stupid rules and regulations ... gordon brown ...
Enough said, I think.
|
|
|
|
|
