Lee
I haven't been rising to it because I agree with you OS X is superb, really superb. The Windows folk either know it makes sense, or are too busy editing the registry to have time to post. I switched away from Windows too long ago to have to rely on anything Windows-specific now, but this is a great development for anyone in the market for a new PC, who can't wait for Vista, and who has a lot of Windows-only software (I don't mean Norton, though you'll still need all that stuff). It also makes switching risk free.
Macs are much prettier to have around the house anyway and in my experience that means the powers that be allow you to buy more gadgets. Here's a link to the software:
www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/
I actually don't think the compatibility issues for OS X with PCs would be as bad as you think. The BSDs--part of OS X's underpinnings--and Linux run pretty well on generic PC hardware. But I don't think it would be compatible with Apple making a profit, since it is a hardware company and Jobs wants to sell "the whole widget." Michael Dell must be nervous.
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My very limited experience of Macs was in the newspaper industry many years ago due to QuarkExpress being the keystone of creating publications.
My main reaction to your comments (Apple has been advertising these systems for a few weeks + www.apple.com/switch/reasons/reason09.html ) was, naturally, if so many of today's Mac users are so happy slagging off Windows, why the change of heart?....:-)
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>if so many of today's Mac users are so happy slagging off Windows, why the change of heart?....:-)
The Boot Camp software only appeared yesterday.
The primary reason is marketing in the run-up to Christmas. They want Windows users to switch, but they have to persuade them to buy new hardware. This means people can do it risk free and do it before Vista appears on Dells. If only 25% of those new Mac owners stay with Mac OS X then Apple wins big time. They will have bought a Mac anyway. My guess is it will be more than that.
The other reason is games. Apple is betting a lot of people would buy a Mac now if they could keep the Windows game library. Now they can.
Incidentally Mac OS X is radically different in every way from the old Mac OS you used.
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>>The primary reason is marketing in the run-up to Christmas.>>
Presumably then potential buyers need some time to be truly convinced...:-)
Only joking....
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I think you guys are all missing the point, this is a U turn for Apple, I mean if Michael Dell aspired to run Panther on a Dimension then Apple would be crowing though no, they have finally bowed to the domination of Windows and recognised that to sell hardware in even a fraction of the volume that Dell do then it will have to be Windows compatible.
Who are the winners here, Microsoft, Intel and Mac users, in that order.
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>I mean if Michael Dell aspired to run Panther on a Dimension
He does, but probably Tiger rather than Panther:
news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-5749940.html
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That is an old story, yes Mac OS on a Dell would open up a niche for Dell though would make little difference to the bottom line.
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Well, it's 9 months old. You think he's changed his mind? Unfortunately for him Apple is a direct competitor. It sells Macs for a living, not OS X, just as he sells Dells, not Windows.
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I think you guys are all missing the point>>
I for one didn't miss the point - I was being sarcastic..:-)
My first reaction when I saw the first advertisements for the "Windows Mac" was why had it taken such a very, very long time to come to fruition?
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>>The primary reason is marketing in the run-up to Christmas.>> Presumably then potential buyers need some time to be truly convinced...:-)
No, you're right. I dual-booted XP and Linux for about two years before I realised I hadn't booted XP for months. At that point I reclaimed the drive space. This is exactly how people switch and those clever people at Apple know it.
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It is though interesting how Apple have turned a capitulation, that started with a couple of hackers winning a competition to get XP running on a Mac, into a positive story. However it will be Microsoft and Intel that are rubbing their hands in glee.
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I don't see this actually, though Intel certainly wins both ways. I have an unused copy of Virtual PC which would allow me to run XP on my Mac if I wanted to. That has existed for years, but is apparently way too slow for games.
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The Mac OS is wholesale better on the home desktop than Windows. The niggle that would stop me going to Apple was some specific stuff I use on a Windows platform. No longer an issue.
Microsoft win as they can sell licences. Apple win as they sell more hardware. We win as we have beautiful kit on the desktop. Michael Dell loses as he sells less but he's hardly going to notice that from behind the truck loads of money that visit him each day.
I don't think this is capitulation by Apple, it's a pretty shrewd move.
Lee -- Without bills, magazines and junk mail, there is no mail
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The Mac OS is wholesale better on the home desktop than Windows. >>
That is a matter of opinion and it certainly is not a majority opinion.
Microsoft win as they can sell licences. Apple win as they sell more hardware. We win as we have beautiful kit on the desktop. Michael Dell loses as he sells less but he's hardly going to notice that from behind the truck loads of money that visit him each day.
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And Intel win big time! Dell wins because he can produce sexy PC's on a lower cost base than Apple.
I don't think this is capitulation by Apple, it's a pretty shrewd move. >>
They really did not have much choice after so many years of Windows dominance. The issue is can they compete with the likes of Dell in the mass market.
Also with Microsoft slated for, for instance, bundling IE and Media Player with an OS then if Apple had established any significant market share they would probably come up against the anti trust guys in the US for not opening up the Mac platform as they have now done with XP compatibility.
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>>That is a matter of opinion and it certainly is not a majority opinion.
Dominance by numbers isn't a sign of excellence. I've been using Mac OS for a good few weeks now and it is constantly suprising me at how fast, stable and comprehensive it is. Windows boxes, and I've used them all, aren't anything like this. I'm a novice with the Apple and it hasn't bitten me yet; Windows would have thrown a wobbler by now. In comparison I set up my Mum's Dell Dimension - it came with so much rubbish for updaters, McAfee, Intellithis & autothat - it was a real and confusing pain to set up. Home users don't need this; I can sort it all out and I don't need it.
They don't need to compete with Dell. I don't think Mercedes see Ford as competing in the same market - and if you could afford an E-class (iMac) you're not going to bother with a Focus (Dimension).
The anti-trust stuff is still ongoing; the EU is debating whether or not to fine MS millions a day- they hit all this because they are so dominant. Ironically, if Apple had more market share, this wouldn't be such an issue!
At last, a healthy, partisan, blinkered debate!! :-)
I really think the Mac is fantastic - anyone looking at surfing the net or doing normal domestic stuff with a computer should really have a good look at them before buying a PC. They're that good.
Lee -- Without bills, magazines and junk mail, there is no mail
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>> They don't need to compete with Dell.
>>
They do need to compete with Dell if they are in the mass home or business computer market. Five years ago an i-Mac was sexy and innovative though IMO a mid range Dell, Philips or Sony with flat screen is actually a visually more attractive proposition today.
Mercedes see Ford as competing in the same market - and if you could afford an E-class (iMac) you're not going to bother with a Focus (Dimension).
I see Apple more as a Subaru, quirky though looking like they need to conform (diesels) though this is surely not a relevant analogy, perhaps A-Class and Focus though just as a £750 Dimension out performs a £750 I-Mac a £15k Focus out performs a £15k A-Class and is likely to be more reliable too.
The fact is though that Dell go more upmarket (S-Class, AMG?) than Apple when it comes to performance (P4 955, 1066mhz FSB, 8GB ram etc or Dual Xeon pro workstations etc) and their latest flat screens are stunning.
Ironically, if Apple had more market share, this wouldn't be such an issue!
That is a good point though if Apple had even double digit market share I reckon there would be rumblings in Strasbourg over the OS and platform link.
Good debate.
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I reckon Apple have an eye to the home/consumer market rather than the business sector - can't imagine anyone moving over to Xserve and Mac desktops - even with XP on Mac, IT management wouldn't touch the Apple platform to replace their Wintel environment - the training, support and sheer hassle make it an unfriendly proposition - I'll certainly resist anyone who suggests it at our place.
Dell seem to have new plans for where they're going too, they recently aquired Alienware and although have said they're not going to change it, I think their XPS range may shuffle off silently and some Alienware influence will be seen in its replacement.
Agree with you about the Dell monitors - we just got a couple of the 30" ones and they are really impressive; but I can't help but wonder that they're inspired by the Apple cinema displays. It's all getting very confusing!!!
Am trying to think of a better analogy for car/mac too - not convinced by Subaru - they produce basic cars developed to extremes for a specific purpose. I think the Apple is a well rounded but overwhelmingly stylised - maybe a C4 (which fits with me!) or the C6, but definitely in the same area as Citroen in terms of being led by design.
Lee -- Without bills, magazines and junk mail, there is no mail
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Am trying to think of a better analogy for car/mac too - not convinced by Subaru - they produce basic cars developed to extremes for a specific purpose. I think the Apple is a well rounded but overwhelmingly stylised - maybe a C4 (which fits with me!) or the C6, but definitely in the same area as Citroen in terms of being led by design.
An Apple can appear very sexy though in short order can become very dated, take a turquoise perspex G3, looks very old hat today next to a PC of the same vintage, likewise the original i-Macs in their funky colours, there were scanners made in the same colours all very 1999/2000. I have a scanner in the loft in the old G3 colours. Also the G4 Cubes were very trendy with convection cooling and looked great next to a Cinema screen and the speakers that belonged in a chemistry lab, all very 2002.
I take the point re Citroen though I see most Macs as more like 407s, C4s and new Civics, all designs that try to hard.
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>>Windows would have thrown a wobbler by now. >>
I wouldn't agree with you in the case of XP - it's the most stable operating system I've ever used and a breath of fresh air after 98SE..:-)
I've only had to Repair XP twice and the reason was simple - two new motherboards. As XP doesn't always take to a new mobo a Repair overcomes the slight possibility of it playing up.
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It can throw wobblers in different ways - I'm fed up of my computer getting so slow that I give up and rebuild it - (Yes, I know, I use Ghost). Maybe Vista will streamline things, but as we stand today, you need a lot of knowledge to get and keep Windows running smoothly. Tried the Windows OneCare beta (unfortunate name, that) and it actually made things worse.
They should be no more hassle than a Microwave oven or toaster, and in these terms, the Mac (on which I'm a novice) outperforms Wintel. And no-one is more surprised than me that I'm finding this, I've got bits of paper from Microsoft and spent two days with them this week looking at new technologies - I'm firmly in the MS camp.
Lee -- Without bills, magazines and junk mail, there is no mail
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I wouldn't agree with you in the case of XP - it's the most stable operating system I've ever used and a breath of fresh air after 98SE..:-)
I have had XP Pro on a laptop for a couple of years now, I run a few XP machines at work and recently have a new XP Pro workstation at home prior to which I ran a 98SE workstation at home, daily use, fully patched and updated, pretty much faultless for 6 years so 98SE is still my favourite Windows. The kids are still using it, just set them up as a use so it still has my config on it if I need it.
I have also bought a couple of Macs in the past for business use, a dual processor G4 with a funky tranlucent flat screen CRT, lots of problems with the monitor and an i-Mac which is quite neat though limited graphics controls mean you cannot apply ICC profiles.
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No, you're right. I dual-booted XP and Linux for about two years before I realised I hadn't booted XP for months. At that point I reclaimed the drive space. This is exactly how people switch and those clever people at Apple know it.
You are though not a typical mass market computer buyer (nor is anyone who posts in this thread for that matter), the average consumer might buy a Mac now for it's looks though will be too PC familiar to buy a Mac for it's ergonomics and will have too much invested in Windows to switch totally to Mac, whether it is games, hardware compatibility, kids using PCs at school, Office Suites they want to transfer from old to new machine, online photo albums or print services that are not Mac friendly, problems sharing documents and image files with PC using friends etc etc.
Lastly there is the problem of competing with Dell on price and Dells are very tasting looking themselves nowdays.
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Hi Stuart,
That looks like Office for Mac, or at best a virtual PC for Mac. This is XP Pro running natively on Intel.
Lee -- Without bills, magazines and junk mail, there is no mail
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Apples are, and always have been overpriced. They are and always have been bereft of the huge range of software and and hardware that makes windows so attractive.
You all miss the point. The reason that windows has so many probems is that very compatability of hardware and software.
Therefore there is no reason to want to run windows on a Mac because
a: its still vastly overpriced
b: it will still have the same problems because they are external to windows.
Plus Mac upgradability is non existant.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I have had my Mac Mini Duo Intel for a few days now.
I have always had a Mac and PC on my desk at home and at work.
Most people only have room for one or the other, whereas now, I feel there is no reason not to buy a Mac. The Mac is much better at almost everything, because the OS and bundled software is superior and as it's all by the same manufacturer it works well and integrates with each other seamlessly.
I'm unning XP on the Mac these days because I needed a new PC to run Vauxhall EPC and TIS and thought I may as well get a Mac Intel as I much prefer Mac OS to Windows (for 98% of the time I will be in Mac OSX)
Now there is a beta of software called Parallel which runs XP in a window at full speed, so no need to dual boot and partition hard disks.
Hackers already got the Intel version of OS X running on Intel PCs and posted the information and patch to the DRM online, and are currently being sued by Apple for bypassing DRM and breach of OS X License which says it must be installed on an Apple-branded machine.
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