So the B'ham relief road toll will be £3 at peak, £2 non-peak and £11 for trucks - inc VAT, which it seems the truckers can recover but the BBC report seems to imply that company cars can't, perhaps I've misunderstood, I'm sure someone will correct me.
£3 or sit for an hour looking at Hilton Park, worrying about being late for that big meeting - it's no brainer. I'd pay £10 if it meant I could get past B'ham without dropping out of 5th gear
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Sorry, it's £1 for cars off-peak but that's only between 2300 and 0600. This means that the Government has accepted the principle of a tax-break for night-time miles - why not go the whole hog and offer a big tax incentive to haulage companies for miles done between say 8pm and 6am, easy to administer through the tacho and a massive impact on congestion.
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Sorry, it's £1 for cars off-peak but that's only between 2300 and 0600. This means that the Government has accepted the principle of a tax-break for night-time miles - why not go the whole hog and offer a big tax incentive to haulage companies for miles done between say 8pm and 6am, easy to administer through the tacho and a massive impact on congestion.
I just knew that suggestion was too sensible. Seems the toll is £10 for HGV daytime, 23:00>6:00am its reduced to £9, acc BNRR site.
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In theory I agree with tolls, but i'm guessing this is the thin end of the wedge, and the politicians want you to think "mmm£3- not bad, i'll pay that" and before you know it, there will be toll roads spring up all over the place, and the charge will keep on rising, but the VED and pertol wont decrease. I think this should be a cautious welcome to a very congested stretch of the motorway network.
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I happily cough up for the peage toll autoroutes in France: quieter, safer, seemingly better maintained.
But France is a less crowded country anyway, and may be we haven't got that much room for new pay roads.
This problem just isn't going to go away. We're a crowded little island and there's too much traffic chasing too little space.
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I don\'t think the french have the road tax anymore, in which case it makes paying a toll more bearable (if you\'re french)!
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What happens when the toll road jams up? Do you get a refund :-) How are people going to be paying, if is cash at toll booths then at peak times there could be bigger queues than ever. I certainly wouldn't be happy paying 3 quid to sit there like a prune. It should be interesting to see just how many people choose to pay and whether lots of people think that there is no point using the toll road as they think everyone else will so they will save 3 quid and still get through brum unscathed.
teabelly
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had a nasty smash at out local toll the other day...
Big truck comes hammering down the hill, loses brakes, and flattens the booth at the toll gate.
Fortunately, nobody was hurt, and they were able to put the booth together again.
They used Tollgate Booth Paste.
(boom boom).
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The pictures on local news here show multiple booths with hoppers to aim your coinage at, complete with pictures of the denominations it will accept.
I'd image you'll have to come out of 5th gear to use it :-)
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As a private road will there be a speed limit on it, and will other road laws apply?
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Surely the toll for HGVs is incidental, as the hauliers will just pass it on to their clients? So it won't discourage HGVs at all, but may leave the M6 less congested for private motorists.
Terry
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But what if the client is overseas, and a non-UK competitor does not have to pay the toll?
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Sorry, Leif, I don't understand. If you use the road you pay, wherever you come from.
Terry
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I inched past the northern junction of this new road a week last Sunday as the south bound queue slowly crawled along. The number of lanes where the two Motorways merge seemed to be two only for the new road. Have we learned nothing? Consider the fun and games at M54/M6 going south and M6/M5 going north? How long before the northbound M6 at this point has the same problem. Or have I got it wrong and the new motorway is only two lanes wide? Does anybody know the final complement of lanes that the old and new motorways will each have at this point.
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The official website for the new road is www.m6toll.co.uk
PP
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if this was such a good idea then why couldn't it be tried round the m25 - major spine to major spine without a junction i.e m1 to m11, m11 - m20 etc.... Oh! wait a min... m25's round London so deserves public money to cure congestion !
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if this was such a good idea then why couldn't it be tried round the m25 ... m25's round London so deserves public money to cure congestion !
chris2: I will keep politics to the minimum possible (by not naming any political parties) in givng you the reason -
M25 was built by a Govt. that believed in expanding the road transport network and paying the Private sector to build roads to be owned the State sector. If you were poor, you needn't worry - the state treated all motorists equally.
Now you have a Govt. which is anti-roads and believes in the principle that "road-user-pays via VAT/road-tax/fuel-duty/congestion-charges/tolls/etc."; and allows the Private sector to Build and Own roads for which they can charge people who want to avoid driving on congested State roads. Now, if you are poor, sorry, you can't afford to drive but you can always use the integrated public transport system (if the Govt. get round to building one using PFI).
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Re "Now, if you are poor, sorry, you can't afford to drive but you can always use the integrated public transport system (if the Govt. get round to building one using PFI)" .The failed asymptotic road expansionist tendency were voted out of office, I seem to remember, which may hint that there are people other than committed motorists. I also seem to remember an aversion to public transport on their part. The railway privatisation fiasco? However, does it really matter to drivers of Mercedes S600 et al, and their acolytes, who can afford the tolls whatever the price? Or do I detect a crocodile tear or two, on behalf of the poor, in their second hand untermenschen vehicles?
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...waving credit card at toll booth...
Out of my way, peasants!
No Dosh
(No, the irony hasn#t escaped me)
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These New Labour lot are soooo cool. Lots of riff-raff in inner London. No problem. Congestion charge. Lots of riff-raff on the motorways. No problem. Tolls. Way to go. How's about a pavement tax to get rid of those nasty poor people in towns? And a breathing tax?
(Irony intended.)
Seriously though it is odd that Labour portray themselves as the party of the little guy, and yet they introduce loads and loads of regressive taxes that do not account for income. And as for their integrated transport policy, mmmmmmm, the Gentleman is for turning I think.
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The simple answer is that politics have moved more right wing in the last two decades. Labour policies now are on a par with policies of the first tory government of the eighties. Lest we should not forget who removed student grants! What are the lib dems policies on transport and would they be any better?
teabelly
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Lib dems are unlikely to be pro car , I'd guess.
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I'm very wary of more toll roads like this, roads are by definition a public good, used by the public and paid for by the public. Without cars, vans and lorries, they are useless. Roads and the mobility they provide are the lifeblood of the economy, if goods and services cannot get from A to B efficiently then the economy will suffer. The problem mostly with certain governments (they shall remain nameless) is that they have an unceasing and overwhelming desire to plan and provide much like any former eastern bloc countries. Then problems arise when they get the planning wrong. The M6 wasn't supposed to handle 170,000 cars a day it was meant to handle 80,000. Yet the motorways built around the north-west are huge as the planned numbers were much higher than the actual use. Other governments (again remaining nameless) sought to build roads to reduce congestion, where demand dictated road supply, the problem being that congestion invariably got worse before it got better.
The principal failure of this government is that it has planned and provided for a 'reduction' of traffic on roads i.e (very few new roads) in favour of improving public transport. It is based on a hotch-potch of political ideals but mainly using the favourite and now worn-out 'environment' argument as the main stick to bash the conscience of the everyday person. Now this policy has failed, they tried big increases in fuel duty, pollution levies by road fund license and so now reluctantly are using the bludgeon of road pricing.
Road pricing like a flat congestion charge or tolls are nasty regressive taxes. It affects the less well off more than the rich as for the less well off it is a larger percentage of their income.
Surely a more sensible plan would be to pay a yearly surcharge similar to road fund license for road usage by miles driven, a progressive mechanism where heavy road users pay more than someone using a car less. Only this would be a true reflection of their usage of a public good and they contribute to its upkeep accordingly.
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"if goods and services cannot get from A to B efficiently then the economy will suffer." Yes and and industry will always find a better way, in this case choosing to pay more for something better, rather than hang around waiting for the command economy you say exists to provide for them. You can't have it both ways -it's either a market approach or a command approach here!
"Surely a more sensible plan would be to pay a yearly surcharge similar to road fund license for road usage by miles driven" er, you mean like duty on fuel perhaps?
Using the toll road is optional, it's a tax on usage, how could it be more fair? If you set the toll so low that it's effectively not a toll then you just have two jammed motorways as people who previously couldn't make the journey along that route easily suddenly find reasons to make that journey. That phenomenon has been proven endlessly.
Having started this thread, perhaps I should point out that I have no connection with the Labour Party or the Dept of Trans!
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>>The M6 wasn't supposed to handle 170,000 cars a day it was meant to handle 80,000. Yet the motorways built around the north-west are huge as the planned numbers were much higher than the actual use.>>
3500S,
I'm intrigued by your comment above. Are you referring to the NW of England ? If so, which motorways are 'huge' compared to any other in the country ?
I live in the NW and wouldn't say that our motorway are any better than other parts of the UK, and they certainly seem as busy as most others .....
JD
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Can we leave the politics aside. No one on this board seems to have the same leanings as I do and I find what people have to say boring and chippy. Similarly that is why I try not to bore people with my boring and chippy pseudo-intellectual political ramblings.
Back to the point of the M6 relief road. I think that the £3 is a good sum and really not too expensive for the 27 miles. Personally I doubt if I will ever use it as when I need to go through B'ham, I try and time my journey so that there is not too much traffic - ie hit B'ham after 9pm.
How much of the traffic going through B'ham during peak times has to be there? I am sure that at least 10% could reschedule or use a different route or method of transport thus relieving (a little) the problems.
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"Can we leave the politics aside." If you take the politics out of this subject what's left?
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"Can we leave the politics aside." If you take the politics out of this subject what's left?
£3 ?
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I agree with Nsar, politics and transport policy go together hand in hand.
My reference to road-pricing is to apply this to the entire M-road network. I know the M42/M6 section only too well as I'm from the area, the new M6 tollway is a good idea as it is privately built not with taxpayer money, has a supply and demand business case and offers a good service (M6 J4-11 bypass in ten minutes).
I'm sceptical that the rest of the M-road network can be priced, it is essentially a public good and as such should be available to the public paid my taxation.
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How are they going to charge the £3, the French Autoroutes are great until you hit a toll booth on a busy day, took me 2 hours to pay on one journey! longer than I was on the autoroute.
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French toll roads are well maintained, relatively safe (according to the stats) and a fast way to get about without traffic jams. Now of course anyone can say that they have spent hrs on Autoroutes in August or whenever, but on general you can take these toll roads with relatively little hassle. I have not hit an Autoroute traffic jam since last August, and only then on the A7 from N to S France. Now if you can't accept that other people will also head south in summer, then stay put and don't winge. 30% of Traffic on France's roads in July/August is not even French vehicles (how many caravans with the GB sticker have I seen already this year trundling along in the middle lane at 55mph!!!!!!!!!!
Britain's problems are certainly not going to go away, and I hope that public transport continues to receive high investment in France so that this country too does not follow in the UK's example of traffic chaos!
From what i have seen in France, viva the toll road and viva good trains and trams. Don't know if the uk will see public transport investment from the funds recieved from these proposed tolls thought????
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Oops I should have added a bit if text to my last post to go with the link below.
www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,951301,0...l
So the Australian company plan to charge what they like and take advantage of the lack of English law surrounding toll roads. (Starts weeping in coffee)
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