Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - oldroverboy.

Forgive me Avant,

As we have moved I was able to register online to vote

here

www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

There are issues I feeel strongly enough about (but not on here) so did it all online, takes 5 minutes

ORB

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Trilogy

Not really motoring discussion section, IMO. :)

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - concrete

Not really motoring discussion section, IMO. :)

Agreed trilogy. However seeing as I am here......

I would make it compulsory to vote, even if it was 'for none of the above'. There is a bit of a windbag in my local who owns a medium sized engineering company. This of course qualifies him as an authority on fiscal policy within government. I challenged him one evening and during the course of the conversation he revealed that he never votes. A waste of time in his opinion. Everyone just fell about laughing. Now no one takes any notice of him. How can anyone hold serious opinions about the government if they don't vote? QED.

Cheers Concrete

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Trilogy

Concrete, I was going to stand for the party 'for none of the above'. However, I was informed 'for none of the above' would be at the top of the voting slip. It would have to be 'none of the others'

As regards not voting, I am in a safe seat. Whatever I do won't make any difference. For over 250 years the same party's candidate has won the election. Anyway, I like parts of most, but dislike probably just as much. Much like last time, it will be the best of a bad bunch.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - oldroverboy.

Not really motoring discussion section, IMO. :)

I agree really! But as the proverb says

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"

Now, I'm not specially good or bad, but I like my voice to be heard (sometimes)

But I find the mix of views on here generally good and informative and Gordonbennet always makes me :>) , and my mistake in asking one candidate for information in the past got me buried under d***** sent from his parliamentary office, naturally at taxpayer expense..

personally i won't be voting for 2 k******s.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - oldroverboy.

Don't you just love the swear filter..

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

This has become one of the most anti election campaigns it's been my misfortune to live through, we often have to vote for what we hope will be the least dangerous of those desperate for power, but this time around apart from one party the rest of them have majored on why we shouldn't vote for the other and the rest have come up extremely short of reasons why we should vote for them.

I believe it's one's duty to vote if you are capable of rational thought, but it shouldn't be a legal requirement because there are too many people unable to think for themselves and that would mean the party owned by the richest corporations would always win, partly due to their more expensive brainwashing and targeted bribes.

The propaganda, open lying, soundbites are there to sway those easily led or bribed with boring predictability by a few giveaways of magic money in the weeks before the election, now some people might be persuaded to stop watching the standard prime time TV rubbish and get themselves to the polling station, but i firmly believe if it was compulsory then more of the above bribery would be on offer to make it 'worth their while' to sell their vote.

I'm not in the least surprised that vast swathes of the country can't be bothered to vote, the parties and in many cases their utterly contemptible leaders and mouthpieces would be enough to put anyone off, luckily for every one who is part of the current problem, there are enough people sickened by them to make the effort to vote against them.

I've always voted, yes i think it's my duty, it's also my duty to vote for whom i think will do their best for the common good for our country, i will never vote for someone who tries to bribe me with someone else's money.

ORB it may be in the wrong forum but you are right to remind people, and sorry if i make you throw up..:-)

Regards all.

Edited by gordonbennet on 17/04/2015 at 21:20

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - oldroverboy.

Does my "smiley" mean that? if so apologies..

I used it because it reminds me of my nose, in my youth i looked like concord with the droop snoot in landing position after contact with a hard steering wheel going over an unlit trench across a country road, till surgery...

perhaps hj can let us put little emoticons...

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

Does my "smiley" mean that? if so apologies..

I used it because it reminds me of my nose, in my youth i looked like concord with the droop snoot in landing position after contact with a hard steering wheel going over an unlit trench across a country road, till surgery...

perhaps hj can let us put little emoticons...

No apology necessary ORB, i was pulling your leg.

Hooters, yep mines too big, so are me shell likes, so are me feet...given my usual luck in other areas i was at the back of the queue..:-)

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Andrew-T

I believe it's one's duty to vote if you are capable of rational thought, but it shouldn't be a legal requirement because there are too many people unable to think for themselves and that would mean the party owned by the richest corporations would always win, partly due to their more expensive brainwashing and targeted bribes.

I think we should revert to the notion that we vote for the best candidate to represent our constituency. Yes, most of them will be affiliated to a party, with all the baggage that implies, but when a large proportion of the public imagines that they are voting for Cameron or Miliband, we need to focus our thoughts afresh.

For a long time I have voted LibDem because their thinking is closest to my own sympathies - centre leftish. But this time I am voting blue (already have), because our present MP is standing again, he has done a lot of good work for this constituency, and his majority is not large.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

I think we should revert to the notion that we vote for the best candidate to represent our constituency. Yes, most of them will be affiliated to a party, with all the baggage that implies, but when a large proportion of the public imagines that they are voting for Cameron or Miliband, we need to focus our thoughts afresh.

For a long time I have voted LibDem because their thinking is closest to my own sympathies - centre leftish. But this time I am voting blue (already have), because our present MP is standing again, he has done a lot of good work for this constituency, and his majority is not large.

That's a very valid point but unfortunately in the big issues facing the country, your local MP will ineitably trundle into the lobby they are told to by the Whips to endorse the wishes of their identikit leaders...too many times they've cried wolf and threatened to rebel and then on the day they do exactly as told, so regular has this been its now boringly predictable.

I'm the other way, i'm voting for the party overall who across the board wish for the same things as i do in the vast majority of issues.

I will not tactically vote despite the local sitting blue being one of the very best, as despite his own widely known anti EU stance his and other good blues views count for nothing in the lucifer blairite world of what is currently masquerading as their party.

It matters not whether my vote lets the labour candidate in, there is so little differenece between the leaderships and aspirations of the lab/tory party's now they could be joined at the hip, i for one do not believe that we will get a fair referendum of the EU under cameron alone, indeed its entirely possible that we'll see a tory/labour collaboration yet, cameron doesn't want UKIP biting his backside any more than milliband wants the SNP selling him grudging support for the next 5 years...so cameron will be looking for any excuse to either not hold the referendum at all or load the questions as we've seen in Ireland who did the unthinkable and said No only for that to be ignored and rejigged/renamed/bought to get the Yes vote.

Personally i'll be very glad when the election is over, i've never heard so much waffle from the lib lab con leaders repeated ad infinitum and spun by their media lackeys when not one of them has answered a single direct question to date, its been soundbites all the way, the daily bribes of money from the magic tree to get potential buyable selected groups on side has been truly sickening.

Interestingly there has been a voting intentions poll going on since Apr 22nd on a truckers forum i use regularly, i'm rather surpised that as from day one of the poll running and currently 418 votes cast UKIP have maintained a steady 47% of the vote, tories 28%, labour 10%, lib dem/green on 1% each and others/not voting 13% between them.....what's surprising is that the most outpoken views in previous discussions have been very anti UKIP supporters often enough laced with the usual insults...it does make you wonder what potential there could be for other mainly working class (as am i) voters in the wider country to be quietly intending to put their cross against UKIP too.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Engineer Andy

Whilst I sympathise with many Ukippers opinions about the current crop of politicians from the 'mainstream' parties (especially MPs), I think many are, in my view, quite wrong in their assumption that there's 'no difference' between them - despite the LibDems (generally) doing their best to spoil things, the Tories have kept the country afloat during the worse economic recession since the 1930s, and is slowly (much more than I would like) improving.

If the Labour party had won back in 2010, or if they do this time round, we wouldn't/will not have a country left - we would've ended up like France, Portugal, etc, or worse still, Greece. As I see it, the problem with many people on the right or left fringes of the established parties who have moved to UKIP (and those whose similar views found no home previously) is that they, in my view, think of policies in absolute terms - "its my way or the highway".

I understand that compromise politics is often just as bad (or sometime worse) than not, but to be frank, I've rarely seen views held by such voters (and quite a few MPs who are on the left/right fringes) properly and congently articulated to others - often in rude, inflamatory and sanctamonious terms, as if everyone who doesn't hold their opinion are stupid little oiks who deserve the worst.

I have seen this take hold on the Telegraph website's 'Comments' section (same on many news organisations websites), where very few people put forward rational arguments (on both sides of an argument) based on real facts, not just lies, rumour and sometimes downright hostility. What happened to informed opinion and reasoned debate? Sometimes I think we as a nation have imported the worst aspects of cultures around the world, and now we are at a crossroads.

As such, everyone needs to think long and hard about the society they want, not just selfishly for themselves and over the short term, not just because they 'hate' X or Y politician or group of people, possibly neglecting to remember their own responsibilities in society and/or for their own personal situation (rather than blaming everyone else/the government for their woes), plus doing what's best for your family and the country as a whole.

As a long-term Conservative-voting person, I have, to be honest, always reluctantly supported them, not because I want to see a raft of right-wing policies, but because they are the least worst option to enable this country to reasonably prosper over the long term to the advantage of every citizen.

My vote this time around will stay with them, as I feel that despite some UKIP policies being good, many are framed around (IMO) isolationism, division and, in some quarters, racism (as I have witnessed on the Comments section of the DT - very similar ironically to the type of sectarian abuse I believe to be [IMO] sanctioned/tollerated by nationalist parties elsewhere in the UK) - this sort of thing concerns me just as much as attitudes/policies on the economy, education, crime, health, defence, etc.

Too many UKIP policies are designed to appeal in a short-termist, populist way to the dissafected without really solving any of the problems we face, which is why most Tory voters have not switched sides (never mind the electoral maths) - the local/EU election results never give a true representation of public opinion as, to be honest, most people can't be bothered thes days with local politics, and so the turnout is so low that any poll gives minor parties such as UKIP a much higher percentage than in national elections. I also do not like the way UKIP is run - even more centrally controlled (by Farage and his mates) than the other parties.

In many ways, we as a nation are at a similar point as we were after the 1930s depression - growing nationalism/extermism/isolationism/racism across much of Europe, not just in the UK. This is, undoubtedly, partly the fault of the way the EU operates/is run and how politicians have run things generally, but we all should take our own share of the blame, as many of bought into the prevailing culture, or did nothing/very little (shouting at your TV/radio or ranting online doesn't accomplish anything) if we didn't.

What we need is for the non-socialists to come together and form a set of policies than actually address the problems we face, not just some headline-grabbing rubbish that doesn't stand up to even the most basic critique. That means that we ALL will have to both listen and, in some ways, compromise on some issues if we are to move forward and keep Labour and the other socialist (they're so afraid of the word, they have to refer to themselves as 'progressive' now!).

We all have to realise that, especially now, we cannot afford to let them in and finish the job of permanently ruining this great nation by petty bickering and dividing ourselves into little groups who have no influence, but who confort themselves after losing that they are 'still right' (often because they did a rubbish job of persuading everyone else of their arguments/policies). If enough people joined the Tories (for example), then policies and personnel would eventually change - taking the best from UKIP and from those voters who never have found a party they could support fully - me included. Its the only way we can change things for the better.

Many thanks for (if you haven't fallen asleep yet!) reading.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Andrew-T

To sum up, until fairly recently much of the electorate regarded an election like a football match, where one usually supported either the Blue team or the Red - a bit like living in Liverpool or Manchester. And many preferred to vote out someone they disliked, rather than vote in support; and as the home team was usually at one end or the other of the political spectrum, the LibDems usually missed out. No-one wants to play for a draw. The saddest thing was all those ex-LibDem voters who switch allegiance because Clegg 'didn't keep his promises'. How could he, in a coalition? And who else keeps theirs?

Now they have to choose between several teams, most with unattractive captains; people don't know what to do, and most of them believe it won't make much difference. But if hardly anyone votes, maybe we should look for a benevolent autocrat?

Edited by Andrew-T on 04/05/2015 at 16:35

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Engineer Andy

To sum up, until fairly recently much of the electorate regarded an election like a football match, where one usually supported either the Blue team or the Red - a bit like living in Liverpool or Manchester. And many preferred to vote out someone they disliked, rather than vote in support; and as the home team was usually at one end or the other of the political spectrum, the LibDems usually missed out. No-one wants to play for a draw. The saddest thing was all those ex-LibDem voters who switch allegiance because Clegg 'didn't keep his promises'. How could he, in a coalition? And who else keeps theirs? Exactly! I think some people amazingly believe you can get all you want in a coalition...you'd think most people would know better, given most are or have been in some kind of relationship!

Now they have to choose between several teams, most with unattractive captains; people don't know what to do, and most of them believe it won't make much difference. But if hardly anyone votes, maybe we should look for a benevolent autocrat? Perhaps not...don't forget its Star Wars day today, and look how benevolent their autcrat turned out to be! :-)

In all seriousness, I think many people, sometimes myself included, think that politicians should solve all of life's problems, which obviously is patently wrong - we ALL should bear responsibility for changing the world we live in. At least politicians have the guts to put their name forward to do something, even if most of the time they accomplish very little.

A few things most of us should remember when being quick to blame politicians (I am not saying they are blameless, just not as much as we believe) and bankers for the position we have recently found ourselves in:

1. Most home owners never seemed to mind the huge rise in house prices from the mid 90s to 2007/8, which for many (especially those over 50) will even today pay a large chunk towards their retirement, to the detriment of younger people who either cannot afford to get on the housing ladder or pay a fortune for poor quality rented accomodation. Only when some lost their jobs did the complaints start to come. Ever heard of borrowing only what you can afford, including taking into account a period of unemployment?

2. Very few people questioned Gordon Brown's phrase 'the end to boom and bust' at the time (except the doom-mongerers who said it about everything all the time, so they don't count) and continued to max out on their credit cards (as the Labour government did at the time) to get 'one up on the Joneses' by purchasing the latest iPhone, Audi or Nike trainers all the time. I for one was always amazed at how many so-called poor people living council accomodation could afford such items, or Satellite TV (its amazing how many run-down council flat blocks are festooned with Sky dishes), when I, who was better off, could not.

3. How many UKIP voters would (back before the 2008 recession) and still will gladly buy take-aways/go to their local Indian etc restaurant where the only decent chefs come from abroad or similarly buy petrol, food or get a car wash from outlets owned and successfully run by foreign-born people?

I believe that the actual prime reason for the foreigners being wanted isn't money (although that has played a part in some industries, such as construction) is because the indigenous workforce, especially a significant minority of young people think that either work isn't for them (and living solely off benefits [at our expense] for most/all of their lives is), or that such work is 'beneath them' after getting a third rate degree from a mickey mouse college and actually expecting £30k offers to be flooding in, or portly both plus a poor attitude to work which entails them spending hours chatting inanely with 'friends' on Facebook about what they saw of TOWIE last night rather than actually working. Many immigrants are willing to work hard for their wage, but not necessarily loads more hours than you'd expect.

In my line of work in mechanical engineering (Construction), the standard of young people coming through year on year (including well before the recession) has dropped considerably, and yet many still expect huge salaries just because they are 'graduates'. Workmanship quality throughout the industry has also dropped at the same time (worsened by the recession hitting particularly hard) to the extent that I am seriously thinking about leaving the industry for good.

How much of our 'beloved' NHS budget is now spent on:

  • Fixing people who cannot stuffing themselves with food or regularly loading themselves up on booze, ciggies or worse. Its not as though they aren't aware of the health problems all of these cause;
  • Giving otherwise healthy adults IVF treatment because having a child is a 'right', not a privilege (I will not go into detail about parents with a household income well over £50k who think they're hard up so they deserve [brown's] tax credits and child benefit);
  • Staff (not all, but in my view a sizeable minority) who think that turning up to work each day, not themselves being inventive to improve things and expecting others to do so all the time, should expect jobs for life, a state-guaranteed, taxpayer-funded final salary pension and higher-than inflation pay rises, when everyone in the private sector does not.
  • Managers (including clinical) and union reps, who fight inter-departmental turf wars and engage in politicking which ruins morale, lowers standards and efficiency, which effects patient outcomes and can cause deaths.

Not one word (by anyone) has been mentioned about this by ANY political party during the election as if daring to criticise the NHS, even if done constructively, is wrong (a bit like those who can't stand debate on Scottish independence [some SNP supporters] or the EU [some UKIP supporters]). Huge amount of money, IMO, is being spent very badly, and yet everyone is currently in a bidding war as to who will spend the most - ridiculous!

5. A lot of voters also did not mind the huge increases in government spending, and especially borrowing, from 2000 - 2008 even though, on paper at least, because the (fake, bought on the nations' credit card) 'good times' were still rolling. They also didn't seem to mind that these vast sums of money were giving very poor value for money.

Part of the problems we face today, including the knock-on effect of large-scale immigration, was exacerbated by the huge rise in the cost of living in that period, but was quietly forgotten by most becuase certain things - consumables such as food, clothing and electronics were still relatively reasonably priced due to cheap foreign labour.

I didn't hear much of anyone (right wingers and UKIP supporters included), and especially Farage on the subject back then (he and they were only banging on about the EU only, not immigrants).

Don't forget that a certain Mr. Milliband (if I recall correctly) proposed and pushed through the Climate Change bill (giving large financial incentives for firms to put up wind turbines, etc anywhere, even if they didn't produce much electricity), did nothing (he apparently could make up his mind) about securing a long-term source of energy (not gas) for the UK (e.g. building new nuclear power stations, etc), all of which lead to HUGE increases in the cost of gas and electricity (even before him, Labour decided on the 'dash for gas' which lead to increases in the wholesale price and severely ran down our North Sea supplies). Bit of a cheek that he's now wanting a price freeze - which I believe will be preceded by a huge hike in prices.

In my view, we cannot take a chance this time by 'voting with our hearts' and so must not allow Labour and their friends to finish this great country off, but all must also play our part personally and assist the politicians we elect by behaving in a better way - I'm not suggesting some puritantical movement, just thinking before we act.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Smileyman

I thought one had to register anually - October I think, then the register of electors was also used for selection for jury service. I've no problem if that is not the case, but do have a problem if people only dip into the register to vote then drop out for another 5 years thus avoiding possible jury service (is this a kickback to the former 'Community Charge' nicknamed 'Poll Tax' because the register of electors was used to identify these tax payers)

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Bromptonaut

I thought one had to register anually - October I think, then the register of electors was also used for selection for jury service.

The system was changed from (I think) last year so that registration is, in effect, a rolling process. This replaced the previous arrangement where the register ran annually from February based on a form and (eventually) door knocking process done in October. The register, which is maintained by the District Council or equivalent, is updated monthly. The last day for updates to be made and effective for the election(s) on 07 May is close of business tomorrow - 20 April.

There will of course be a fuss between now and the election because people who did nothing until tomorrow afternoon find websites swamped, phones engaged and Council caller offices rammed.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif
I suspect the blatant dishonesty of the Blair and Brown regimes has alienated potential voters. I'm reading a book about the last Labour governments, and Campbell is shown to have lied repeatedly, Blair was little better, and as for Brown, several civil servants came close to giving him a formal warning for the way he spoke to staff. His rudeness was well known and left many trembling. Lying and cheating was the norm. Odd that they successfully destroyed the Tories reputation. So many hate the Tories, distrust Labour, and distrust the Liberals. Is it surprising we are in stalemate?

I do think people should vote, but I am deeply cynical.
Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - galileo

With the present 'first past the post' system, usually whoever ends up governing has had less than 35% of the population voting for them, so 65% of the voters get a government they didn't want.

Living in a 'safe seat'constituency, it is largely a waste of my time voting as I know the incumbent MP will get in again.

A couple of times I have raised issues with him, in reply I received a letter which simply trotted out his party's line on the topic and did not answer my question (no surprise there!) so may as well have saved my postage.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif
Quite. My local MP was Jeremy Hunt. Because he is in the cabinet he was obliged to reply. I received a reply from a very senior civil servant, Sir Fortescue Ftang Ftang Biscuit Barrel, or some such. It gave lots of legal information, all accurate, except it did not address the issue that the police had failed to act. So, useless, but it took 5 minutes or more of time of a high powered wonk.

And of course when people like Boris Johnson can hold two jobs, as he did, how can you respect them?
Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Bromptonaut
and as for Brown, several civil servants came close to giving him a formal warning for the way he spoke to staff. His rudeness was well known and left many trembling.

Unfortunately, Brown is far from alone in that position.

Andrew Mitchell of plebgate fame was notorious for that sort of thing as was Michael Howard. Francis Maud was another name that came up often on the grapevine.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif
Not forgetting Damian Mcbride and Alastair Campbell. Yes it is unfortunate. It goes to show that politics is all about perception rather than reality, until reality becomes too obvious to ignore, and even then repeatedly lying will convince many people.
Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

I won't vote tactically, it won't make a scrap o difference which of the tweedle dum/dee parties get in anyway and i'll vote out of principle whatever happens.

Should be interesting if SNP clean up north of the border.

According to the polls, which are being massaged to influence voting as all media is, Labour can only form a govt with SNP support, catch 22 for them then, SNP will want independence and labour won't want that suicide....Cons secretly want Scotland to leave as it's the only way they'll get a working independent majority again.

Doesn't matter a scrap who gets in anyway, Germany rule us via the EU front and we won't be holding a referendum unless UKIP gain enough MP's to force the issue...if Cons do get in and have to ally themselves with UKIP i forsee a sudden election again in 2017 so cameron can dodge on this cast iron promise too.

I'm really looking forward to May 7th, the EU election polls were way off, we'll see how close they are this time.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif

Fair points. Many predict Farage has already popped his cherry, and will get few seats this time around. He did look pathetic, IMO of course, on a recent BBC debate.

The SNP state that they will end 'austerity'. So Labour + SNP might mean increased spending, and IMO a hit to growth and employment, but that remains to be seen of course.

I can't see the Tories getting back. The Libs will be slaughtered. UKIP will underperform. The SNP will win big time. Labour + SNP here we come.

The only good part will be that the number emigrating will increase, thereby reducing net immigration. ;)

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

Many predict Farage has already popped his cherry, and will get few seats this time around. He did look pathetic, IMO of course, on a recent BBC debate.

That i can't agree with, the audience was, as is now almost admitted by the BBC, drawn from predominantly left wing voters.

The people who think farage are finished are the media, Daily Express excepted.

Farage wasn't in the business of trying to curry favour with that audience, did you note his quip that the real audience was at home?

The little love in at the end of it with the money grows on trees lefties patting each other on the back was just about the most sickening political sight i've seen in many a year, even lucifer blairs orange skinned smirk as he pockets another few millions whilst denying any blame for anything paled into passable.

We'll see how UKIP fare, the polling company who sourced the make up of audience for the BBC gave UKIP something like 10% just before they cleaned up in the euro elections.

Interesting times indeed.

My prediction for what its worth is, Cameron gets the most seats and can just about form a majority if the Libs and unfortunately for him the DUP and maybe 10 UKIP (could be any number) MP's all form a coalition...i'd like to be a fly on the wall when Cameron and Farage have to negotiate a compromise....though this depends on Farage winning his seat and for a busted flush the tories are throwing the k****** sink at Thanet, if Farage loses he's going to resign the reins...is Suzanne Evans his replacement, cool very composed articulate and unshakeable, wasn't there another lady politician like that once.:-)

Thats based on the idea that many previous labour working class voters have found themselves increasingly alienated and without representation, and that hopefully kills labout off in their heartlands.

It would have been far better if someone had knocked Camerons and Farages heads together a few years ago and they had come to some agreement about not standing against each other in certain seats, for the good of the country as a whole forgetting personal animosity...as it is hearing camerons insincere pleas for various gadflies swivel eyed fruitcakes and closet nay openly racists to return home has alienated even more of the traditional conservative vote than he could possibly imagine...when in hole stop dave digging...you didn't want traditional con voters and hey presto you haven't got them any more, best of luck bribing and cajoling the fickle floaters.

This election is more important than many realise, the possibilty of Britain extracting itself from the EU might not last much longer.

Edited by gordonbennet on 20/04/2015 at 13:54

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Bromptonaut

That i can't agree with, the audience was, as is now almost admitted by the BBC, drawn from predominantly left wing voters.

Just out of interest where, outside fantasy sources of type Roger Vernon posts in t'other place, have the BBC accepted that?

Obviously I'm no fan of Farage but I thought he showed his true colours in both debates. Gone was the 'hale fellow well met' image of the pub/pint/fag and instead we got Mr Snide and Arrogant. His comments about AIDS in the first were a disgrace and he should have got fsr more than Leanne Wood threw at him.

Similalry the gibe at the 'International Health Service' in the second. While there need to be rules about health tourism and those rules need to be enforced the sums concerned are a flea bite in terms of the total costs of healthcare. Meanwhile it's migrant nurses, doctors and care workers that keep health provision afloat.

While his party have recognised the truth that they cannot win on a platform of insurance based health care there's no evidence he personally has recanted and Miliband hit a VERY raw nerve pointing that out.

And if he goes as leader Carswell will surely get the gig of leader as he's likley to be only KIP elected.

We've had a co-alition for 5 years without the Liberal tail wagging the Tory dog and there's no reason at all why a similar arrangememt with Lab/Lib with SNP/PC support (and possibly NI Alliance too if they get elelcted) shouldn't work too. The Fixed Term PArlaiment Act makes it much more difficult for minority parties to ally with opposition and bring down a whole govt. The outcome of a 79 style confidence vote under today's rules would be quite different.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif
I have no real view on the audience, except it was odd that there seemed to be no Kippers among them, which you would expect if it was balanced. I do know that they rig audiences for Any Questions, or at least allow a panellist's fans to fill the audience.

His views on AIDS should not be dismissed as a disgrace. Politicians dismissed anyone who wanted less immigration as racists, and by playing the man not the ball, played into Farage's hands. The way to deal with the AIDS issue is to argue with facts, rather than say 'shame' etc. Labour did that with immigration, saying it would be minor, then later apologised.

Migrant doctors and nurses is an interesting one. Those nice right on types that support immigration, and foreign aid, forget that we take large numbers of highly skilled medical staff from India and Africa, seriously affecting those countries who lose expensively trained staff.

Whilst I would not vote for Nige, he articulates a lot of views that a lot of people sympathise with, unlike more right on politicians. The problem I had with his recent performance was the lack of balance. There is a real impact of immigration on health, schools and especially housing, which other politicians ignore, but he seemed to focus on immigration alone, thereby ignoring other important issues.

I did find Miliband's smarm sickening. Why do Labour politicians try so hard to ooze compassion, putting on a 'I'm so caring it hurts' voice? It really comes across as false, and annoying. Frank Field, Michael Meacher, Clar Short and others don't do it.
Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif
Interesting views GB. In a few weeks we shall see whether you are right.

Incidentally, lots of my neighbours voted UKIP in the Euro elections, as a protest, since no-one cares about Euro politics. This election is not the same. IMO anyway.
Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Engineer Andy

Fair points. Many predict Farage has already popped his cherry, and will get few seats this time around. He did look pathetic, IMO of course, on a recent BBC debate.

The SNP state that they will end 'austerity'. So Labour + SNP might mean increased spending, and IMO a hit to growth and employment, but that remains to be seen of course.

I can't see the Tories getting back. The Libs will be slaughtered. UKIP will underperform. The SNP will win big time. Labour + SNP here we come.

The only good part will be that the number emigrating will increase, thereby reducing net immigration. ;)

The problem is (I know you were jesting on the last comment) that those emigrating would be skilled workers (I am thinking of doing so, if anyone other than the Tories [best of a bad bunch, I'm sorry to say] get in), not just the super rich/City types, etc, as IMHO if Labour, or especially Labour + SNP or a 'rainbow alliance' (I hate calling it that, as rainbows are nice things, as opposed to those sort of political parties) of left-leaning parties.

They would inevitably finish off the job of ruining this country that Labour almost achieved by 2010, only they'd be no way back this time. If anyone want evidence of this, see much of southern Europe and France.

We need to get away from the extremes of view that either the rich businessmen/bankers or immigrants/EU have cause most/all of our problems - they have contributed, but none (including, yes, UKIP) have addressed the issues surrounding a rapidly aging and obese/less healthy population, who IMHO are less willing to take care of their own lives (including properly planning for their later years), spending more than they can afford and expecting either house prices or 'the government' (effectively everyone else) to come to their rescue, and just moaning at their TV and expecting local/national politicians to just 'fix everything' when they themselves are just as responsible for getting us in the mess we're in.

That and terrible management in this country, both in the private and especially public sector - where more money (NHS) INS'T the answer - better management and a more realistic, value-for-money way of offering services that serve the public, not those providing them, which should be to help people get back on their feet after problems that are not of their own making, not just to subsidise a way of life. All too often people thing they 'deserve' all government services to be instantly available and free of charge (someone else can pay).

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif

Correct, it was a jest, and yes I know some skilled people will leave.

Oddly enough, allow in lots of East European immigrants, and you increase GDP, increase the number of employed, increase tax takings (in the short term anyway, since newcomers are young, and employed, and not old and sick) which helps pay pensions, and so on. The problem is IMO that it is a ponzi scheme. In 30 years time they will all be retired and/or ill. Where will we get more working age people to pay their pensions?

Oh, and you increase the number of Labour voters. So, I cannot imagine why Labour would allow them in. Nope, no idea.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - FP

Speaking as someone whose mother was from a Scottish family, I have to say I regard Sturgeon and the whole SNP outfit, Salmond included, as total poison to the United Kingdom. Their only real aim is to achieve Scottish independence despite the result of the referendum and to take with them as many British resources as possible and their influence, if extended into Westminster and English affairs, would be destructive. Their duplicitous methods, as evinced by their concealment of a black hole in the projected finances of an independent Scotland, is evidence of their mindset.

What I really fear as an outcome to the election is the unimpressive, unappealing, ineffective figure of Miliband in No 10, messing up the country's finances again by attempting to spend money we don't have, propped up by, and stymied by, the SNP. The only good thing that might come out of that is another general election pretty soon.

I'm not that much of a UKIP fan, but I want a referendum on the EU and I want us out of it, but if the result of a referendum was to stay in, at least that distraction would be behind us.

And I'm no great fan of the Tories, but at least they have had the guts to grasp the nettle of the financial problems left by Labour and the worldwide recession.

I shall definitely be voting in what has become a fascinating election.

P.S. I see Sturgeon has just "offered the hand of friendship" to the rest of the UK. Does anyone seriously believe it?

Edited by FP on 20/04/2015 at 14:29

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif
I echo many of those views. I am concerned Labour will spend spend spend, and lie till the cows come home. The Liberals and Tories had the guts to take decisions that could have destroyed them for a generation or more, when Ed Balls was saying the way out was to spend, not cut, and that the Tory way was the path to higher unemployment, and lower growth. Balls seems to have forgotten that his predictions were totally wrong.
Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Engineer Andy
I echo many of those views. I am concerned Labour will spend spend spend, and lie till the cows come home. The Liberals and Tories had the guts to take decisions that could have destroyed them for a generation or more, when Ed Balls was saying the way out was to spend, not cut, and that the Tory way was the path to higher unemployment, and lower growth. Balls seems to have forgotten that his predictions were totally wrong.

Sadly so have 30-odd percent of the population. The Tories should be doing far better than they are (though the factor of people lying to pollsters, those who haven't made up their mind, but who will definitely vote, and finally all those saying they will vote for X [esp. UKippers and the young] who won't [can't be bothered on the day] actually or can't [didn't register] vote will IMHO make a difference), but they don't appear to be going to the streets like John Major did (never mind what happened afterwards) - it took guts to get on his soap box, which is more than I can say for Cameron, unfortunately, who, like most politicians, like to perform to a script in carefully orchestrated events full of loyal supporters.

Too many 'professional' (apologies to all of us here who are actually professionals - I couldn't think of a better term) politicians (including the SNP and IMO, quite a lot of UKIP councillors and prospective MPs), who think they are 'common people' but who often have mainly/solely been in politics for all their adult lives and are part of the problem.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif

Yes, too many career politicians who learn how to lie and manipulate, and not enough with non politics experience i.e. management, science, medicine etc.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Engineer Andy

We need a good mix of people from all walks of life, private and public sector, unskilled and skilled 'blue collar' and skilled professionals, men and women, as well as representing as much of the UK from an ethnic, political and religious pov.

I know we'll never get a true representation of the UK population - personally I'm not in favour of PR et al, as it gives political parties with little popular support a lot of power, and it encourages tactical (negative) voting even more so than FPTP.

PR polls tends to give coallition governments, and whilst the current one hasn't been terrible, we would've (IMHO) done a hell of a lot better had the Tories won outright last time - the worst case (as may be the case this time round) could mean we end up with something resembling continental politics (e.g. Italy), which is something I am definitiely not looking forward to.

I think its sad that many MPs and politicians generally just fail to see that both they themselves - the way they act, treat the voting population (lies) and pretend that they have 'skills' (mainly arguing and lying - probably IMHO why so many are ex-lawyers as MPs [less of them please]!) when they have no experience in the real world.

I also think that the minimum age for an MP should be at least 35, and that you shouldn't be able to serve as an MP for more than 10 years without at least a 50% share of the vote at the following election - too many know they enhabit a 'safe seat', so IMO they do just enough to get re-elected and spend the rest of the time climbing the greasy pole for the own power-hungry needs and living the life of Riley at our expense. Until such things happen (as well as other measures that WILL clean up politics in general), I believe the title of 'honourable member' should be taken away from MPs - they don't deserve it.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

Oh dear the Finns have gone and got it wrong and voted their equivalent of UKIP, True Finn, into second place with 17% of the vote and 36 MP's out of 200, seems they are likely to form the next govt with the Centrist Party.

How will the MSM spin that, if indeed they mention it at all.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Auristocrat

With our post today, we received some election material on behalf of UKIP - in particluar the candidate for Sevenoaks in Kent.

I'm not going to be able to vote for this particular candidate, as our postal address and parliamentary ward is in Birmingham.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Avant

There's always the risk with fruitcakes that the fruit will end up in the wrong place.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - madf

Well UKIP got what they deserved. as did Labour.

And Balls and that unctuous Cable.. and Simon Hughes.

A great result - several Portillo moments in succession..

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - galileo

Well UKIP got what they deserved. as did Labour.

And Balls and that unctuous Cable.. and Simon Hughes.

A great result - several Portillo moments in succession..

4 million votes for UKIP, 1 MP

Less than 3 million votes for SNP, 56 MPs

You think this is a fair result?

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - gordonbennet

Thems the rules Galileo, and now the tories have a working majority they have no need to do anything about PR.

Must offer congratulations to the tories, they won the election, and under FPTP there's only prizes for the winner.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Engineer Andy

Well UKIP got what they deserved. as did Labour.

And Balls and that unctuous Cable.. and Simon Hughes.

A great result - several Portillo moments in succession..

4 million votes for UKIP, 1 MP

Less than 3 million votes for SNP, 56 MPs

You think this is a fair result?

Yes and no - don't forget WE ALL had the chance a couple of years or so ago to vote on whether we wanted a 'fair' voting system, and comprehensively rejected it.

IMO the current voting system has the best combination of local /personal accountability (PR would just allocate based on party lists) and normally giving a decisive result overall. AV often leads to tactical second choices to keep 'hated' candidates out (as was the case when Ken Livingstone was ejected from the London mayoralship), which to me is hardly a positive way of electing people.

FPTP tends, as it did this time, for people to vote with their heads rather than their hearts (as was the case in Greece) to make sure they got a relatively 'safe pair of hands' rather than the chaos that would've ensued if no party could form a workable coalition.

Whilst I greatly sympathise with voters who don't at present get a look in (UKIP, Green mostly), we have to always weigh up the consequences of voting in the 'lesser of two evils' or perhaps more positively (and kindly) 'safer' option against. If the 'rainbow coalition' or free-for-all scenario came to pass (as it almost certainly would under PR), then we would end up with 'governments' (and I say that loosely) like those in Italy and now Greece, where they last a year tops, make extremist parties/politicians very powerful and more moderates weak, leading to bad decisions being made or none at all, leading to economic ruin.

I know that FPTP does have its weaknesses, e.g. Labour's huge majorities from 1997 - 2005 with a weak opposistion meaning man bad laws/decisions went through almost unapposed/with little scrutiny, almsot leading to our ruin as well, but that has to do just as much, if not more, with the voting public's own poor choices (as well as the lack of talented MPs) in expecting MPs to solve all their problems and gaily borrowing up to the nines (as well as the government did) to satisfy their need for the latest iPhone, Audi, Nike trainers or home to keep them ahead of the Joneses.

Best to start with:

  1. Making all constituencies (within reason), both for MPs and for District/County councillors as similar size as possible so that any election can be fought across the whole of the UK on the same basis.
  2. Reduce the number of MPs at least down to 600, preferably nearer to 500 - we have more MPs per voter than almost any democracy in the world. Restrict MPs to a maximum of 15 years in office unless they receive over X% of the vote (how high - hmm?).
  3. Make the speaker's job separate from MPs and political parties - i.e. directly elected by everyone and independent. No former politicians and power of recall (to be worked out how) for poor performance (maybe also for MPs).
  4. Give much more tax-raising powers to local councils, but (as with national government) make it very transparent so that everyone knows where/how wisely its being spent. National government really should be for taking care of national issues - defence, foreign policy, strategic planning/overall in charge on standards/policy/enforcement on transport, welfare, emergency services, health and education. If local politicians and councils were 'in the spotlight' more, then their performance and policies would be not overlooked as they often are by voters (why local election turnout is poor). Local referrenda would be used for major changes in financial policies, e.g. large tax or borrowing hikes/cuts - a majority of the electorate (i.e. 50% of all voters in an area, not just those who voted) would be needed to approve this.
  5. Encourage PROPER informed debates on all issues, not just letting who can shout the loudest (sadly UKIP and the SNP/PC - see much of the 'comments' sections on national newpaper/TV news websites and you'll see why) or (as the Left often does) browbeat sections of the electorate into feeling ashamed to hold certain perfectly reasonable views (legitimate concerns over problems associated with unmanaged immigration, dealing with criminality/extermism within certain ethinic groups [being called racist by some on the left even for quite moderate [non BNP/EDL] opinions] or believing welfare should be about giving a hand up to people in hardship rather than trap them into dependancy on the state [being called uncaring]).
  6. Legitimate immigrants will have to earn both citizenship and the right to vote (including barring them for X years if they commit major crimes during the 'earning' period - for the worst, sending them back to their original country). Make better use of temporary foreign workforce to fill skills gaps on a short term basis as a last resort - provide better education/training (focussed on the right skills - that includes giving funding to needed/good courses [e.g. science/engineering/medicine/manual skilled professions] and colleges/schools [to encourage take-up] and not to the rest [e.g. media studies, etc]) and pressure on the workshy to get/keep jobs so that less temporary workers are needed and use temporary visas better so that (hopefully) eventually most workers and voters are British. One of the consequences of large influxes of migrant workers is that it deprives of countries of people, often skilled workers, who could do a lot to improve that nation (medical personnel being one recently in the news here).

That's a start. Time for tea.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Avant

Good thinking - I agree with most of that. What most of us want is a string gocernmenr of the centre, and FPTP for all its faults gives us the best chance of getting it, as I think we have this time.

The problem with politicians generally is that they don't get any formal training, and they can be shunted from ministry to ministry after an election or reshuffle and have to make decisions without any background knowledge. Just as well that we have the Civil Service! We can all think of people we've met during our lives whom we've particularly respected and admired - few of them are politicians, although I'll make an exception for Theresa May who is a regular member of the church where I was organist until retiring to Dorset last year.

Register - To VOTE or you can't change things - Leif

I agree that voters must have the say in who does and does not get into power, and PR with lists is bad. Troublesome non conformists who do a good job would not get on the list. You would end up with a bunch of toadies, sucking up to the party leader, but potentially useless in their constituency. At least we can vote for someone on the basis of competence. There are Labour politicians I would vote for, even though I hated the Miliband class warfare, chip on shoulder, politics.

I do wonder about MPs when Boris Johnson was both the editor of the Spectator, and an MP, and now he is both an MP and mayor of London. It rather makes a mockery of the system.

They are due to sort out the constituencies to make them more equal.

The reason UKIP only got one MP, whereas the SNP got lots is simple. The SNP represented - or seemed to - Scottish interests. UKIP are a pressure group, focussing on one issue, and failed to gain wide appeal. Farage was a bit of a joke on the TV discussion, obsessed with Europe rather than the big picture. Anyway, they have done their bit for Britain in the EU election, ensuring that the EU will take seriously Cameron's demands for more powers devolved from the EU. However, I suspect they will just provide him with a fig leaf, rather than addressing real issues.