Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

I bought a 2.5 year old car with 98k on the clock from a dealer for £5.5k.

I lost control of it on the drive home so I put it into my garage for a review the following day. The following problems were found:

Punctured tyre signifcantly scrubbed / track rod end had excessive play / front shocks completely gone / low oil in engine / worn brake pads at the front with 2mm lip plus some other minor faults.

I rejected the car under SoGA because it was deemed dangerous to drive by my mechanic. I was told by the garage on several ocassions that I would have to have it repaired by them or take them to court. The owner of the garage told me he would give me a car in the meantime but he wasn't giving me a refund.

Put it in for an MOT and the garage found it dangerous to drive due to the tyre and track rod end. The other stuff was ignored because it wasn't relevant to an MOT.

Weeks of negotiation I issued a pre-court claim, he ignored it so I rang him. He offered me £4700 to buy the car back. In the interests of keeping it out of court I accepted and gave him 14 days to clear the funds then to return the car to him. He rang me at the end of last week to tell me he had a document he wanted me to sign and that he was coming over on Monday to drive the car away and he would leave me a cheque. Naturally I refused to give him the car until the funds were clear.

He hasn't replied since so I've issued a claim. He's put nothing in writing except one letter from Lawgistics which showed that they hadn't seen the full case.

Anyone got any advice on what might be useful to do / say in court?

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - oldroverboy.

For the amount involved go and get a consultation with a solicitor, won't cost much, and he will give you aprice, proper advice and will be able to claim reasonable costs for you.

Read Hj's advice on the subject. it's on the website somewhere in the askhj section.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - scot22

Agree with oldroverboy. Might be worth trying to find one offering free initial consultation. Have you any legal aid insurances sometimes added to insurances ?

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

Thanks for that. I actually have a solicitor friend who has been helping me and he has a barrister friend who has been working on it too. They think I have a very strong case.

So what am I doing here I'm asking myself? Erm...I issued the claim today and it's just a bit scary.

Thanks for your help. :)))

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - tony g
Hi,
I'm surprised that your friend the solicitor hasn't explained how the SCC operate .
Anyway ,I've been involved with the SCC several times ,it's a clear and simple process which tends to favour a private individual over a business user .

IMO you have an open and shut case ,you were sold a car that was dangerous to drive ,by having an mot done you have demonstrated that the car wasn't fit for sale .
In addition the dealer offered you a refund ,in doing that he has lost before you arrive at court ,he wouldn't offer a refund if the car was in good condition .

Write out a clear ,simple and short statement of the facts with three copies ,one for the judge ,one for the other party and one for you .

The judge will ask you questions ,answer clearly and simply .the judge will make a decision which is legally binding on the day. IMO you will win your case .

Finally it's likely that the only people in the room ,will be you ,the judge and the garage owner .its not an intimidating process .

Good luck and please let the forum know the outcome .
Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

Thanks. My solicitor friend works for a defence firm as their legal counsel. He's not an expert on the SCC. However, I've done a lot of research on it and found out the things you were saying. Your advice is useful. Thank you.

Interestingly I spoke to the garage owner after I sent the pre-action letter and he was willing to negotiate. He called it buying my car back. I knew what he was doing. He wasn't calling it a refund because he knew the position that would put him in. Anyway, that one is a without prejudice offer so can't be referred to in court.

I think the same as you but the complication is probably in the garage muddying the waters, I think the judge will want to know why I didn't give them the car back when they asked for it. The reason is becasue the garage owner made it very clear that he was going to fix it. He said he would fix it once he'd assessed it. I refused to give him it because I didn't want it to be fixed by I offered for the RAC to inspect it and if it was found roadworthy I would pay for it, if not, he would. I also offered for him to travel over to my city (30 miles away) to inspect the car AND I offered him a video I had made. All seemed reasonable to me.

I also wouldn't let him have it because he said he was going to fix it and then put the case before the director of the company. He IS the director of the company but was calling himself the site manager. There turns out to be another unnamed director who the receptionist told me about and when I mentioned him to the "site manager" he quickly capitulated and told me he was the director.

I had ample reason to believe he was going to fix the car and hear no more complaints from me then I would have no case.

Once the "refund" came through this week I wouldn't let him have the car because he wanted to leave me a cheque. I told him that was a ludicrous suggestion but he said I was being ridiculous. You know when you're right but someone is so confident you second guess yourself? That was me with him. I started to ask whether I should have just taken the cheque. But he's given me loads of reasons to believe that he would drive the (dangerous) car round the corner, call the bank, stop the cheque, take the car, fix it and then tell me there was nothing wrong with it but a few minor defects and I should pick the car up now that it's fixed.

So, a brief statement for the courts it is.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Dwight Van Driver

Don't forget to have a look at Section 75 Road Traffic Act 1988.

dvd

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Andrew-T

I'm sure you will get through this with the 'law' on your side. But I do wonder why you didn't spot some of the faults you mention, either on the forecourt or on a test drive? Bald tyres and low oil on the dipstick are not difficult, and pretty likely on a car with nearly 100K on the clock. What about service history?

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward
I should clarify the reason I'm mentioning the low oil is because the garage said it would be given a service before they released it to me. It's obvious they hadn't. As for the tyre, it's not bald exactly but badly scrubbed at the side and worn to the point the ply cords are visible. Being no expert I wouldn't recognise something like that.
Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Bromptonaut

I'm suspicous of whether the trader has the funds. In this day and age it should be possible to do a 'faster payments' bank transfer and have it show on the recipients account in minutes.

If he's a man of straw then ourt action may not be sucesful either.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward
Yes you're right. I have little to lose in doing it though. Time will tell.
Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Andrew-T
I should clarify the reason I'm mentioning the low oil is because the garage said it would be given a service before they released it to me. It's obvious they hadn't. As for the tyre, it's not bald exactly but badly scrubbed at the side and worn to the point the ply cords are visible. Being no expert I wouldn't recognise something like that.

Hmmm. If the tyre is as you say, the car may have wheel alignment problems. You should return it to the seller and get your refund. Hopefully you will be more of an expert when you look for its replacement.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

I certainly have learned a lesson in trust and thoroughness. I tried to get a refund but, as I say, I was refused. I haven't returned the car because the seller has given me clear indications that he is going to fix it but he won't be giving me a refund, only if he deems the car to be a death trap, which he won't.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Andrew-T

It sounds as if the dealer thinks it will cost him about £800 to sort the problems, and your description suggests that they are fairly easily sorted. So if you like the car, get him to put it right - if you trust him to do it. But convince him that you will know if he doesn't ... :-)

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

It will and he already spent £500 on a new clutch when I noticed it on the test drive. I'm the one that pointed it out, not him so it's clear that he puts his cars on the forecourt and waits for the customer to find the faults.

I don't like the car and I don't want it, it has a catalogue of faults and has, according to my mechanic, been abused in it's short life. It's a money pit and I don't trust that he will put it right.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - slammerjammerman

I'm in the same boat myself but the repairs needed to the car I bought are more than the value of the car making them uneconomical. From my brief look into the sale of goods act and conversations with citizens advice the seller is obligated to offer a refund, repair or replacement. Since it may be difficult to offer an exact replacement then refund or repair are more likely. You should get some advice on if as the buyer you are allowed to demand a refund rather than a repair. If the seller is offering a repair then he may be able to use that against you in a small claims court.

Edited by slammerjammerman on 27/02/2014 at 23:19

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

I have no doubt he will, it's about the only defence he has. It's not enough though. Consumers get to choose the remedy if the conditions are right. I'm choosing a refund. He won't win and he knows he won't win.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Brit_in_Germany

> Consumers get to choose the remedy if the conditions are right.

Not according to SoGA they don't.

the buyer may ... rescind the contract with regard to those goods if the condition in subsection (2) below is satisfied. (2)The condition is that— ... the buyer has required the seller to repair or replace the goods, but the seller is in breach of the requirement of section 48B(2)(a) above to do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the buyer.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

Thank you. Can I get a link / source on this please?

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

I found it. It's from

The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002

which I don't believe applies in this case for a few reasons. I'm not asking for a repair or replacement, I'm asking for a refund under part 2 section 14 of the act. The additional section you quote is an amendment to the 1979 act which gives further rights to consumers in certain circumstances. If the conditions are right then the consumer gets to choose the remedy.

www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.p...f

Page 32 the flow diagram of that guidance booklet outlines as well as in several other places.

Additionally, CAB has published the following:

www.adviceguide.org.uk/nireland/consumer_ni/consum...m

with this:

"

Getting the seller to fix the problem

If you bought the car from a dealer, you can go back and ask for a refund, for the fault to be repaired or for a replacement car. If you bought the car more than six months ago, it will be up to you to provide evidence that the fault was present when you bought it."

The firm's own legal company agree with my position. They are members of Lawgistics who state on their own website:

"The rights and remedies for consumers under Sale of Goods law is in need of an update since it is confusing both for the customer and the dealer. Originally, the customer, if they established there was a fault had the choice of either:-


a) getting a full refund (rejecting the goods) providing they opted for this within, usually, a few weeks of finding the vehicle was faulty when sold. "

and

"Many dealers do not appreciate that if a vehicle shows a fault within a few weeks the customer can claim for a full refund. There is a myth that the dealer should always be allowed to try a repair. Not so. Often the customer can be encouraged to allow a repair but this is a bonus. The right of rejection has a big bearing on the consequences of the case."

www.lawgistics.co.uk/read-news/62

as well as

www.lawgistics.co.uk/used-car-warranties/motor-tra...r

which states

"If a customer rejects a faulty vehicle within this "reasonable" period, they are entitled to ask for their money back and maybe compensation to cover costs (consequential damages)."

Since I rejected the car one day after I bought it and having travelled only 30 miles I am entitled to a refund.

The garage have issued a letter which states that they believe I am responsible for the tyre. They have provided no documentation or, for that matter, any response to my pre-action court letter. I am happy for them to attempt to prove how I have caused the issues with the tyre by showing me their pre-sale check documents but they have not yet been forthcoming.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Brit_in_Germany

A.C., my comments were more in response to "slammerjammerman" who has not rejected the goods. As you say, rejection is possible within a reasonable time after which the goods are deemed accepted.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward
I see. Thanks for that. :)
Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - concrete

Hello anonymous, the advice given by tonyg is correct. From what you described your case is very strong. The court is quite informal in that it is a few people behind desks. Proper procedure and respect must be observed at all times and everyone refered to by their title i.e Mr X or Mrs Y and the judge as Sir or Madam. Put your main points down on paper as bullet points. A sentence or two is all you need for each. This will give the judge the ammunition he needs to question the defendant. If you need to speak, do it clearly and calmly, as if reciting a passage from a book. Do not get excited or emotional but remain serious. The court is usually extremely sympathetic to members of the public and is aware of the stress of the situation. I would go ahead with the action. You have given this trader several opportunities to redress the matter and he has being playing you along. Please let us know the outcome, we all benefit from first hand accounts of this type of action.

Best of luck. Cheers. Concrete.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

That's very useful information, thank you. Just waiting on the above poster's source on the SoGA.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

Which I've now found myself. Reply above.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Andrew-T

Which I've now found myself. Reply above.

That's great. All you need now is to make it stick. Good luck.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward
Update: I think he's received my claim form this morning as he has tried to ring me. He has never initiated contact in the two months since this began. I'm now ignoring his calls and will only accept correspondence in writing. The sum we agreed to take the car back was significantly less than what is on the claim form and I suspect he's none too pleased. Or he was ringing to accept liability. But I very much doubt it was that.

Tbc
Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - concrete
Update: I think he's received my claim form this morning as he has tried to ring me. He has never initiated contact in the two months since this began. I'm now ignoring his calls and will only accept correspondence in writing. The sum we agreed to take the car back was significantly less than what is on the claim form and I suspect he's none too pleased. Or he was ringing to accept liability. But I very much doubt it was that. Tbc

You should ignore him now. He now has no other choice but to put up a defence or admit liability in court. Either way he is on a loser and he will be liable for all court costs including any expenses you incur in bringing the action. It is far too late to try and make a deal now as costs have been incurred. However if want to there is time before a hearing is set to write to him, recorded delivery, and offer him a settlement, but only for FULL money redress for the car. FULL court costs reimbursed and a nominal sum for all the agravation and expenses you have had with this matter. When and if his bankers draft clears before the court date, or better still cash, then you can cancel the action and return the car. Make all this very clear and say it is a once and only offer open for 48 hours. Worth a try if you don't fancy court, but I think you are on winner. Best of luck. Concrete.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - stivvy

A comment re "recorded delivery" or "signed for" as it is now known. Don't assume the letter has been delivered as the addressee can refuse to sign. Something I discovered with a very similar case, successfully won thro' SCC.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward
Thanks for that. I'm sure the recorded delivery letters reached him. I emailed him a copy of the packs I sent out as well. He's had the pre-action court letter and ignored it.

Thanks for the tips.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

Thank you. He rang again the other day, this time he left a message. He sounded quite reasonable in the message and appeared to be trying to pass it off as though he'd done everything he could and he had one final offer.

I emailed him a very very short note to say thanks for the message and if he wanted to make any offers he would need to write.

He's clearly running scared now because he's been cagey and unwilling to initiate contact from day one. Now I'm ignoring his calls he's going to up the ante and get his law firm to try and bully me I think.

Anyway, I agree with everything you're saying. The mad thing is our settlement was for significantly less than I paid and he wanted to leave me a cheque and drive the car away. I said he could pay by cheque but it would have to clear before I gave him the car but he refused. Madness because now the claim is for over £1500 more and I really think he will lose. I've put £5 a day storage costs on to it as well so that with interest is increasing by £6.29 a day. If he takes the claim right through he'll have a bill for over £7k. The guy's crazy.

More updates to come. The wheels of due process turn slowly so it might be a while.

Thanks for everyone's help and advice.

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - anonymous coward

Quite a while since I last posted. Hi.

Waited the 14 days for defence to be entered. He emailed about two hours before he was supposed to submit defence offering to buy the car by bank transfer for the same price as agreed. I said no.

His defence was not filed the next day so I requested judgement which has now been rejected. He filed an acknowledgement of service so he has another 14 days.

Delay tactics. He will pay or at least I will win.

*twiddles thumbs*

:)

Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - tony g
( Waited the 14 days for defence to be entered. He emailed about two hours before he was supposed to submit defence offering to buy the car by bank transfer for the same price as agreed. I said no.)

If the dealer agreed to buy the car back for the price agreed between you ,why bother going to court ?
Small claims - what do you think my chances are? - Collos25

I think the OP wants a judgement because he expects more money than the cars value in out of pocket expenses.