N/A - Crash - who is at fault? | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

Tue 7 Dec 2021 11:17

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - JohnnyWalker

Daughter was driving along a main road this morning observing the 30mph speed limit.

She was in an unfamiliar area, relying on directions from a passenger.

Passenger said take the next side road left, so daughter indicated left.

Passenger changed his mind and said carry on straight. Daughter immediately cancelled indicator. She estimates that this was about 15m before the side road. She did not initiate the turn.

A car came out the side road, and daughter had nowhere to go and T-boned it. Thankfully nobody in either car is injured.

Police attended and said fault in their opinion was 50/50.

Doesn't seem right to me? I was always taught never to rely on somebody's turn signal. but to wait until they start the turn. The car coming out of the side road clearly didn't wait - the turn signal had already been cancelled, and the turn was never initiated.

Highway Code sections 104 and 170 seem to support my interpretation of fault.

Am I missing something?

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 11:36

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - ExA35Owner

15m before the turn - should have continued and then found an alternative. She would presumably have been slowing for the turn if she was only 15m away so the driver in the side road could have reasonably expected her to make the turn. Rule 170 bullet point 5.

Driver of the other car made the mistake of assuming that the oncoming car had a careful driver; shouldn't have moved until they were certain of the intentions, but slowing down and indicating is pretty clear signposting of the actions planned. Rule 103, first point.

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 12:11

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Engineer Andy

15m before the turn - should have continued and then found an alternative. She would presumably have been slowing for the turn if she was only 15m away so the driver in the side road could have reasonably expected her to make the turn. Rule 170 bullet point 5.

Driver of the other car made the mistake of assuming that the oncoming car had a careful driver; shouldn't have moved until they were certain of the intentions, but slowing down and indicating is pretty clear signposting of the actions planned. Rule 103, first point.

Spot on, there. It's a common mistake for the driver of the car turning onto the main road to assume an indicator means they are 100% turning that way. So many people forget to switch off their indicator these days, so it's wise to assume nothing - indicating or not.

I judge would judge a similar situation based on the speed/acceleration/deceleration of the vehicle on the main road vs what I can safely achieve with my car without causing the other vehicle to have to brake.

I'd personally say that it's 75-80% the fault of the other driver, who, as you say, should've waiting until she turned in or passed the junction. Saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if the claim gets settled near to the 50-50 mark as Plod said.

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 12:18

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Gibbo_Wirral

Spot on, there. It's a common mistake for the driver of the car turning onto the main road to assume an indicator means they are 100% turning that way. So many people forget to switch off their indicator these days, so it's wise to assume nothing - indicating or not.

Agree. I'd only go if I saw a flash of headlights and the car was slowing or starting to make the turn before risking pulling out.

Conversely I've also sat at roundabouts due to oncoming cars not bothering to indicate.

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Sat 11 Dec 2021 00:29

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - focussed

Spot on, there. It's a common mistake for the driver of the car turning onto the main road to assume an indicator means they are 100% turning that way. So many people forget to switch off their indicator these days, so it's wise to assume nothing - indicating or not.

Agree. I'd only go if I saw a flash of headlights and the car was slowing or starting to make the turn before risking pulling out.

Conversely I've also sat at roundabouts due to oncoming cars not bothering to indicate.

Flash of headlights? What does that mean then?

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 11:52

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - badbusdriver

Am I missing something?

Yes, human beings are involved!.

First, the fact that your daughter is unfamiliar with the roads and was taking directions from someone else, is irrelevant.

The thing about not relying on someone indicating alone, is of course correct, on paper. But if the change of heart happened 15m (which is not far at all) from the junction, I would expect that she had already started to slow down. If this was the case, the driver waiting to come out was not relying just on the indicator, but by the fact that your daughter was slowing down too. Under those circumstances, I'd probably have pulled out too. But more importantly, if I had been in your daughters position, I would have expected the car to pull out and been prepared for it.

Main thing is nobody was hurt though.

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 15:47

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - daveyjp

OPs daughter's line of argument is the other driver pulled put of a side junction before ensuring it was safe to do so. The other driver is therefore 100% at fault.

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 18:30

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - sammy1

I agree with your daughter. Basic rule when your driving is wait until the vehicle turns or is turning off the major road. Your daughter is still in my opinion is on the major road regardless of how slow she was moving

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Wed 8 Dec 2021 11:05

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Andrew-T

OPs daughter's line of argument is the other driver pulled put of a side junction before ensuring it was safe to do so. The other driver is therefore 100% at fault.

We don't know the detailed layout of the roads, but it sounds as if there were several turnings to choose from. So another point in favour of the third party is that the daughter could have been signalling too early, intending to take the next turn anyway. I see this almost every day - it can be as bad as not signalling at all.

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Fri 10 Dec 2021 16:27

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - focussed

OPs daughter's line of argument is the other driver pulled put of a side junction before ensuring it was safe to do so. The other driver is therefore 100% at fault.

At a marked and signed T junction, the road going straight ahead, along the top of the 'T', has priority....

The minor side road will either have a :-

Stop sign and road markings.

Give way sign and road markings.

Give way lines only.

Regardless of the manner or timing of the OPs daughter's signal the driver of the car that emerged from the junction did not obey the road signs and/or markings.

Q - When waiting to emerge from a T-junction a vehicle approaches from your right indicating to turn to its left. What information does the left indicator on the approaching vehicle give to you?

A - The bulb is working ok.

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Fri 10 Dec 2021 23:11

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Andrew-T

<< When waiting to emerge from a T-junction a vehicle approaches from your right indicating to turn to its left. What information does the left indicator on the approaching vehicle give to you? >>

As a general rule, turn indications are of more use to cars behind the indications than those in front.

Edited by Andrew-T on 10/12/2021 at 23:13

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Sat 11 Dec 2021 00:12

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - focussed

<< When waiting to emerge from a T-junction a vehicle approaches from your right indicating to turn to its left. What information does the left indicator on the approaching vehicle give to you? >>

As a general rule, turn indications are of more use to cars behind the indications than those in front.

What should be the reaction be of a driver behind the the vehicle indicating to turning left into the T junction?

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Sat 11 Dec 2021 10:08

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Andrew-T

<< When waiting to emerge from a T-junction a vehicle approaches from your right indicating to turn to its left. What information does the left indicator on the approaching vehicle give to you? >>

As a general rule, turn indications are of more use to cars behind the indications than those in front.

What should be the reaction be of a driver behind the the vehicle indicating to turning left into the T junction?

Keep a safe distance until intentions become clear(er). That's what Should Be. Some may decide to pass if that is possible. Hopefully the car waiting to emerge will be visible :-(

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 18:51

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Brit_in_Germany

Are you missing something? I would say yes - it is not the business of the police to attribute proportions of blame in a civil matter. If they had determined that a criminal act had not been committed, they had done their job. Sounds like they gave their opinion based on their experience but that is unlikely to carry any weight with the insurance company.

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Tue 7 Dec 2021 23:01

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Andrew-T

Police attended and said fault in their opinion was 50/50.

Doesn't seem right to me? I was always taught never to rely on somebody's turn signal. but to wait until they start the turn. The car coming out of the side road clearly didn't wait - the turn signal had already been cancelled, and the turn was never initiated.

50/50 sounds about right. Third party had probably seen several left-turn indications and assumed that would happen with the oncoming car only 15m away. Indicator might have self-cancelled, might it not ? They often do - and don't as well.

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Wed 8 Dec 2021 09:13

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - bathtub tom

SWMBO wrote off a car in very similar circumstances. She signalled left to exit a roundabout, unfortunately the road continued a slight curve to the left and the indicator didn't self cancel. She didn't notice. A hundred yards or so further on was a junction to the left where someone was waiting to turn right out of. The other driver was held entirely to blame, which surprised me.

I fitted a LOUD audible sounder to the next car!

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Wed 8 Dec 2021 09:19

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Bromptonaut

SWMBO wrote off a car in very similar circumstances. She signalled left to exit a roundabout, unfortunately the road continued a slight curve to the left and the indicator didn't self cancel. She didn't notice. A hundred yards or so further on was a junction to the left where someone was waiting to turn right out of. The other driver was held entirely to blame, which surprised me.

I'd differentiate that from the OP case where the driver has slowed and is within 15 metres of their intended turn. A 'Go Around' in those circumstances requires more attention than the daughter gave; I don't think she can avoid a share of the blame.

Was the navigator a driver? They should have been more on the qv but that doesn't help now.

The Police estimate of 50/50 feels about right to me but it's actually down to the respective parties and their insurers to thrash that out.

Do return and let us know how it goes, or at least is going.

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Wed 8 Dec 2021 16:25

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - Theophilus

I fitted a LOUD audible sounder to the next car!

Tell me more! I admit to having significant hearing loss (though I'm sure that the indicator warnings were far louder in days gone by - I still remember the "click-clack" on a 2CV.

I would be very interested in a simple device to amplify the sound :-)

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Wed 8 Dec 2021 18:43

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - RT

I fitted a LOUD audible sounder to the next car!

Tell me more! I admit to having significant hearing loss (though I'm sure that the indicator warnings were far louder in days gone by - I still remember the "click-clack" on a 2CV.

I would be very interested in a simple device to amplify the sound :-)

I too have significant hearing loss, a combination of my age and historical medications, and can hardly hear the audible turn signal so would also be interested in any device to amplify it.

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Wed 8 Dec 2021 19:28

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - bathtub tom

I simply fitted something like this across the warning light contacts: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313708364462?hash=item490a79c2a...F

The fact that it has a maximum current of 10ma suggests it's high impedance and won't affect anything else. The car may have had two warning lights, in which case I would have connected it across the non-earth sides of the lamps and because of the high impedance there would have been enough 'earth' to supply the necessary groud current to make it work.

It's a case of 'suck it and see'. It worked first time for me.

Then there's the case of the doorbell sounder I (surreptitiously) fitted into the reversing light circuit of my daughter's car. She had a habit of reversing into things and I thought it was only fair to warn all those poor, innocent, fence posts. Her boy friend at the time tried to find it, but it was so small I think I hid it inside the light cluster.

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Thu 9 Dec 2021 15:46

N/A - Crash - who is at fault? - thunderbird

Very similar to an accident I witnessed 2 years ago, I posted on here about it.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=133328

The chap I was following (his car was written off through no fault of his whatsoever) rang me several months later and updated me. Turned out bad for the girl who caused all the carnage and her mother who owned the car. She should not have been driving the car, her mother had not updated the insurance after the daughter had passed her test. Mother insurance covered the damage to both the cars written off but I guess that she was left with no car and no pay out. Not sure now exactly what monitory penalties the daughter got, (its 18 months since I spoke to the chap) but pretty sure she lost her licence for a short time and would have to take an extended test to get it back.

I never heard form the Police.

Think the dash cam footage helped, note to self, must buy one.

But it still continues. At the bottom of our road it curves to the left (not a tight radius but it must go round 70 degrees). On the left after 100 yds there is a road and 50 yards on the right there is a road (guess its a staggered junction). Shop on the corner which we use for bits and pieces. Standing at the right turn cars turning left mostly indicate left (some don't bother of course) but many cars going past that turn indicate right which to me suggests they are going right. Most do but some clearly think since they are not going left they should indicate right even though they are not. Seen a few near misses but since it busy most of the time traffic is not going to fast thus people so far have stopped.

But it will happen, trust me.

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