Times are changing, and unless Jaguar do come up with a diesel (I believe that up to 50% of all new cars sold in the UK are diesel), then Jaguar will be a thing of the past too. While the XJ's and XK's do not need to have diesel power, (if you have £50k to spend on a new car, you don't worry about fuel costs) the X Type and S type are competing in fierce markets where diesels and estates give manufacturers increased volumes.
The survival of an automotive firm is dependent on its ability to change and adapt to change.
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From 1970-1987 the Jaguar "heritage" was:
rust
clapped out engines after 70,000 miles
more rust
awful electrics
more rust..
awful paintwork
more rust
worn ball joints
even more rust
You can keep Jaguar "heritage": a diesel Jaguar X should be good : if it is quiet and resonably fast.
madf
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Agree Madf. Except that the description fits all British cars up to the 80's and quite a few others.
But as for: -
"a diesel Jaguar X should be good : if it is quiet and resonably fast."
My question remains - If the heritage doesn't count why not get the Mondeo?
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It is all to do with people being different, and if we were all the same and chose a Mondeo, what a boring world this would be!
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True BB. And I'm not suggesting it has to be a Mondeo for anyone least of all me.
But you think diesel suits the Jag brand? If so, what next Ferrari?
Anyway you're right - each to his own.
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I will let you know when I see one, sorry hear one ;)
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I heard, some time ago, of a Roller that had been engine-swapped for a diesel.
Now THAT really IS sacrilege!
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There's an 80's Roller knocking about with an estate back stuck on the end. Lovely.
No really.
Orson
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There's an 80's Roller knocking about with an estate back stuck on the end. Lovely.
Geezer on the street where I used to live in Notting Hill had a Silver Shadow with the back finished in red oxide. Used to ferry his stock around in the boot -- second-hand fridges and washing machines. Looked very hard on the rear springs.
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Getting back on topic, about ten years ago a lady by the name of Petra Fischer tried to patent the use of diesel engines in soft-top sports cars. Her patent application was thrown out and she appealed ... and appealed ... and appealed. This cost her a fortune, several tens of thousands of pounds.
Eventually the UK Patent Office had her claim to a patent investigated by a high authority who confirmed that, though the idea was new, it wasn't inventive, i.e. it would have been an obvious step to put a diesel engine in a sports car if there was any commercial need for it. The investigating official went so far as to say that it was not commercially feasible to fit a diesel engine in a soft-top car as these were a contradiction in terms.
Before the findings were published, Volkswagen were advertising a diesel soft-top! The Patent Office were a bit embarrassed about this, but their decision to reject the patent application was still correct of course.
The thing was that technology had moved on. It's moved on a huge amount further since then and it is Ludditish to argue against the suitability of modern diesel engines for cars such as the Jaguar. We have had them in BMWs for years!
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If you are buying a jag or other up-market saloon, why buy a diesel. If you can afford the car then why not the petrol to run it, or is it stretch your budget for the bodyshell but buy the cheapest to run. All pose & no go. If you cannot afford the best version do not buy the model range.Diesels are for lorries & buses & cheapskates.
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Geoff, your comments are totally out of date.
I currently own one of your so-called 'upmarket' petrol cars and have never owned a diesel car so it cannot be said that I am biased towards diesels.
I have driven quite a lot of diesel cars and the modern ones have a special flavour all of their own, far better in some respects than petrol (and I'm not referring just to economy).
Good diesels are totally suited to cars like BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar, including the X-type which is only *just* upmarket. As for diesels having 'no go', I can only suggest you catch up on your motoring reading.
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What i am saying is that people buy for the image of the car & a diesel does not evoke luxury.It evokes economy, taxi, rattley idle, money saving. If you are buying a designer suit/watch/trainers dont buy a Taiwan imitation to impress the neigbours, spend the money & buy the real thing. No s320 diesel, go for the s500.
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What's the best selling version of the Merc "S" class in Germany?
- the 320D.
Now Germans are REALLY stupid re cars aren't they?
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Lots of taxi registrations perhaps
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The diesel S class is also the best selling model in the UK.
Buyers of luxury cars do care about emissions (as they're often company cars so pay less tax) and don't necessarily like pouring money away on fuel. Used buyers of these cars also care a lot about fuel consumption so they depreciate less than their petrol counterparts too.
Whatsmore the high torque / low revs nature of the engines suit the relaxed style of many luxury cars.
Jaguar made a huge mistake in not predicting the diesel boom and are paying for it with poor sales and massive losses.
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Correct IT, Jaguar made a huge blunder in not predicting that diesels will boom. Also correct, the market share for Jaguar is poor. But model for model, the Jaguars do well, the problem is that the range is not extensive enough, although the S-Type outsells its equivalent model 5 series in every country except for Germany (but nowhere near Benz)
The problem occurs when a new car buyer goes into a showroom with a need for an diesel and / or estate and Jaguar cannot provide it. That is where they need to improve.
Eg. Jaguar X Type -3 models in range 2.0, 2.5, 3.0 petrol saloon
BMW 3 Series -numerous petrol engines, good diesel, estate, saloon, convertible, M3.
Jag need a greater variety to tempt customers, and the diesel is just the start.
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I guess this comes down to the respective values we put on utility and luxury.
Down my road a guy has a lovely, shiny, fully-loaded C Class CDI. I've often admired it as I've walked past. However one day I walked past just after he'd switched on the engine: the racket was terrible and I can't imagine ever paying £20k+ for that sort of noise, however good the fuel economy/BIK tax/low-down torque etc.
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It may well be the best selling model, but so is the 318 for BMW.This does not make it the best. I prefer to buy cars I like not because they are a sound investment or project a certain image. This may not make economic sense, but that is my decision.
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The Americans will not buy luxury cars with coal burning engines,and the USA is a huge market for Jaguar,MB and BMW.
I'm with Mr Honda,you can stuff your filthy diesels.
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True. About 60% of all Jags are shipped to the states, but I think that is why they are trying to open other markets with their diesel plans.
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Jaguar may sell most of their production in the USA, but if they want to expand a lot of the sales are going to have to come from continental Europe. Having no diesels, estates, coupes (of the saloons), roadster etc. puts them at a major disadvantage.
It's not that Jaguar can't do diesels or estates but they constantly seem to be taking on BMW & Mercedes and doing it on the cheap. Unfortunately for Jaguar you end up with compromised products (witness the Mk 1 S-Type). Until Ford decide to bite the bullet and invest the money needed I can't help but feel that Jaguar will continue to be an "also run" in terms of sales in their market segment.
Also, it may be a perception, but a heck of a lot of Jagaurs in the USA seem to start life on rental car fleets which is never a good sign of high retail demand.
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BTW, I think Ford & PSA have a V6 diesel under development which presumably will be used in the X-Type.
The point is, of course, it should have been developed 3 years ago and launched with the X-Type & S-Type from the start.
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An interesting discussion because before I chose my X Type, I tried many cars. A good proportion of these were diesels because of the tax considerations.
I firmly believe that diesel sales wouldn't be at their record high if it wasn't for the artificial tax regime. They are not as refined as a petrol, and always have a very narrow power band. If you want to save pennies then fine, but otherwise a good petrol engine will always beat the best diesel one.
And when the Government wake up to the fact that these things have very dangerous emissions, we'll see how long the trend continues.
V6 petrol of me!
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or even -
V6 petrol for me!!
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In reply to Simon R
Surely the tax regime discriminates against diesels by an artificial loading on the actual CO2 figures.
Diesel fuel tax in the UK is similar to petrol whereas on the Continent it is invariably lower.
The power band is narrower but kicks in at lower revs, so you get the same ratio from bottom to top as on a petrol (say 1500 to 3500 diesel, 2000 to 4500 petrol).
The larger particles from diesel are trapped in the nose rather than getting into the bloodstream.
If the Government bans or restricts diesels then bang goes the bus fleet!
(I switched to diesels many years ago after getting fed up with trying to sort out damp ignition systems)
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I believe the particulates from diesel emissions are small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs and are now thought to be very harmful.
Good mpg though, but stinky fingers and shoes when you fill up!
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In reply to Brian W
The tax regime is stacked in favour of the diesel at the moment because the comparative CO2 emmission is much lower (despite the loading). Current price of diesel is about the same as unleaded - don't see a reason why it should be cheaper unless you're a haulier.
The power band on my V6 petrol is between 1500 revs and 6000 revs, so I'm not constantly 'rowing' the car along with the gear stick. Auto box makes a lot more sense with a diesel.
There are many articles on diesel particles(!). Here's a link to one
www.ecocouncil.dk/download/dieselpjece_eng.pdf
and finally, don't some buses run on gas nowadays?
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the jaguar design team need a bit of car porn!e.g MAX POWER. the s-type manual is lame and so is the x-type! they need more torque and a better gear box. they also need to appeal to young drivers in their mid 20s. if u look at the S-TYPE R it is a work of art, i dont now what the designers was thinking but it worked!
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