Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car?  
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

I had a car stolen, because the Police are unable to ascertain who stole it they refuse to seize the vehicle and return it to me-despite them knowing where the vehicle is.

I had the car in storage in North Wales. In Feb 2011 I was contacted by the DVLA advising me someone in North Wales was trying to register the car. I told them I had not sold the car and not to allow anyone else to register it.

For some reason the DVLA have allowed the registration-though this does not record the legal owner of the vehicle, just the keeper.

After confirming with my friend, who was storing the car, that the car had been stolen I contacted North Wales Police and reported the theft. They have investigated the theft and while the investigating officer agrees the car is stolen the Police will not recover it and claim this is a civil matter, not a criminal one!

They say that the present keeper bought the car in good faith and had no way of knowing it had been stolen, the person he bought it from also claims to have bought in good faith and the person prior to that claims the same too-unfortunately the person he bought it off is now deceased so the Police investigation stopped there-because they cannot find out whether the deceased man bought it/stole it they refuse to see my car as stolen and recover it.

Frankly I couldn't care less who stole it, while it would be nice to see them prosecuted I'd really just rather my car back.

I still have the log book, complete with "new keeper supplement". I have not sold the car, my friend who was storing it has not sold the car, the person who now is in possession of it is in receipt of stolen goods but the Police won't do anything!

I feel completely let down by our legal system and cannot see how it is possible for them to just wash their hands of me.

Please, please, please help!

Tags: legal theft insurance V5C legal advice

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel
Hi There

I completely understand your misery and pure frustration and helpless feeling regarding your stolen vehicle, as I had the almost exact same thing happen to me. My car was stolen off my driveway whilst I was in hospital. I then traced it to the Ebay website. I even traced the cars location . Like you I still have my intact V5 document as I do all the vehicles history ie bills service record even the Red master Key with immobiliser.

Now tell me, would any decent citizen looking to buy our vehicles and then find it's missing a,b,c etc consider this to be above board??? of course not. decent law abiding citizens would not touch it with a barge pole??? I certainly wouldn't. At the very least I may be thinking ringer. So I imagine from the start the car was sold on at a very cheap price so that greed would win over what may end up ethically right!!! Should they keep the car No!! Are they the legal owners NO!!! Do the the police have a duty to recover it YES!! Will the person who has the car now, the once it is seized have any claim legally NO!! Are the police failimg to do their duty YES!!! Do The Police have to know who stole it in order to return it to it's rightful owner Of course No. If that was the case All the recovered vehicles ie ones left abandoned after the thieves have used it in another crime ie as a get away car, the Police would hardly contact the Owner to have it retuned to them. The police seem to burning the candle at both ends it would seem!! The LAW HOWEVER STATES THE VEHICLE MUST BE RETURNED TO IT'S RIGHTFUL OWNER. How many times have you seen on programmes where a person has bought the vehicle in good faith find the police telling them sorry it must be returned to the original person who reported the theft and the poor person who may in another case has bought it in GOOD FAITH find themselves out of pocket and out of car with no right to that said vehicle or any claim or financial reimbursement to that said vehicle, and that is the law. The Police do not make the law, they just have to uphold that law.

The one thing I know for certain is that " GOOD TITLE " has not been passed on and the law states that the car should be returned to it's rightful owner.

I spoke to a criminal lawyer friend who told me I was well in my rights to just go and seize the car back.

I have long begun researching the whole legal aspect of whether it is a police or civil matter. My findings thus so far is that it is of a definite criminal matter.

Perhaps you would like to email me ie two heads are better than one and who knows there maybe more victims like us out there to find. also maybe if we put our heads together we can find away for us both to get our pride and joys back. My email address is:-

gloshuskys@aol.com I am also on face book as Belinda Tombs-Webb and the Facebook Social Box IM service

If you have Social Box on Facebook maybe we can have a discussion there by exploring what we have done and ways to find a resolution for both our losses seeing what stones we have uncovered and what other possible options we may have.

I very much hope that you will reply as it is really time to find a way to get the law to work for us victims of car theft and make the Police start earning What we pay them with our hard earned cash.

look forward to hearing from you

Kind regards

Belinda

PS IF ANYMORE VICTIMS FIND THEMSELVES IN THE SAME OR SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES THEN IT WOULD BE FANTASTIC TO HEAR FROM ANY OF YOU AND TO SHARE YOUR STORY AND JOIN THE FIGHT TO GET BACK OUR STOLEN PROPERTY. I VERY MUCH LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU ALBEIT UNDER UNFORTUNATE AND TRULEY BAD CIRCUMSTANCES.

ALSO THERE MAYBE READERS OUT THERE WHO HAVE FORTUNATELY NOT BEEN AFFECTED BY SUCH A LOSS, BUT MAY KNOW OF SOMEONE ELSE WHO HAS BEEN THE VICTIM OF A STOLEN CAR WHEREBY THE POLICE HAVE FAILED TO ACT IN ACCORDANCE TO HAVE THEIR VEHICLE RETURNED AND SO RESTORE "GOOD TITLE" AS IT'S KNOWN. PLEASE PASS ON TO THEM THIS INFORMATION YOU HAVE READ, ALONG WITH MY CONTACT DETAILS.

"IT IS NOW TIME TO FIGHT BACK"
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - jamie745

Isnt it strange how you get your car stolen and the police cant do anything, but if we drive a car with no tax on it or insurance out of date by 3 hours they soon make sure they can do something to us. You're more likely to get away with raping somebody in this country than you are driving a car with no tax on it.

The last time i looked, stealing cars was a criminal offence, and quite how the DVLA think they've registed this car in someones name without the New Keeper slip from the V5 which they made, printed and supplied im not sure. They've handled stolen goods, unknowingly yes, but the fact is they have, so its not theirs, so they've lost their money, it happens. If the DVLA did nothing about the report initially then a textcheck on it wouldve probably said its A OK.

Go get it and drive it back home if the police wont do anything. You've got proof its your car.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

You have said that the law states the stolen goods must be returned to the legal owner......do you have a reference in a parliamentary act for this? I would like to be quoting it .......

Edited by Avant on 07/08/2011 at 17:02

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

Hi Belinda,

I have sent you a message to the email address you listed.

Sorry to hear that you are in the same predicament as myself-it's no wonder our teens feel they can riot with impunity with such a toothless Police force I'm surprised they stopped when they did.

Hopefully we can resolve our issues, please check your mail-my email address starts with lazigreg@ if you want to check it's not stuck in your junk mail-attached my letters to Police and various other uninterested public bodies!

Greg

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel
At the very beginning when initially answering this post, I included my email address for those who wished to get in touch get in touch or needed any help !!

What I didn't realise at that time was that my mail was not getting through on that address i gave out and any people contacting me were not getting any replies back from me. Not a very good start, so please accept my apolgies.

For those who have written to me, expected an answer or advice and received no response, I can only apologise.

THIS IS MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS, SO HOPEFULLY SUCCESS WITH MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS HERE IT IS:

beljwebb@gmail.com

again my apologise and please feel free to contact me again with your query

Bel

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TeeCee

Here's an earlier one from the other side:

www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/19869/police-say...1

Now, there the police are busily taking away a car in 2006 that was originally stolen in 2001, so it would seem that which view the police take here is inconsistant.

In the light of recent revelations in the press, maybe their take on this subject is all down to the size of the bribe on offer?

Anyhow, the answer given has been trotted out a few times, it is impossible to develop title on previously stolen goods. Title remains with the last legitimate owner, in this case you.

However, I also recall seeing previously (BBC Watchdog some time in the nineties? - a stolen MGB GT as I recall) that repossessing the car yourself will leave you open to a prosecution for car theft......(!) The only way forward is to get the police to do their job. Maybe getting a solicitor to write a letter to the authorities would provide the necessary boot up the backside?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Doesn't this stink!

I'm really pleased to have found this forum, and maybe share some info with similar victims of police neglect.

Back in 2008 I closed my car lot due to the recession. In a lock up on the site, I had a hand made, 3 wheeled, coach built car, like a Morgan, built by a friend's dad back in the 70s. The new tenant of the site said I could leave it there for a while, as it wasn't in her way. A few weeks later, when I went to retrieve it, it was gone. I reported the theft in writing, sending copies of the car's docs etc. but never heard anything from the police. To be honest, 08 was a dreadful year for us, and we still have not recovered. The tax man broke me financially, one of my best friends was killed, I lost my business of 20 years, and a finance company took me to court for a 23k debt that wasn't mine....they won the case against me, and I was refused appeal. A lesser man would have had a break down ! Needless to say, the missing car was not high on my list of priorities. and I pretty much wrote it off. However, a friend recently pointed out that my car had appeared as someone's facebook profile picture, and the car was still local. Sod it, I thought....it's still mine, and I want it back! So I reported it again, this time an officer got in contact with me, and took the details. I offered to obtain proof that it was mine, but he declined it as unnecessary, so I guess he believed me, after all, I still had the original V5, ignition keys, and convertible roof. After about 8 weeks investigations, he said he could not contact the woman who had taken over my site, but the car had only been through one person before the man who has it now. He then said he would seek advice from the force legal section, and it was this mob who then decided it was a civil matter. I wrote to them, and protested.....good title, stolen goods etc, but the reply was curt, and the same. They said the present owner has acted innocently etc. SO WHAT! Am I not innocent? and it's my car!

Last week, I complained to the chief constable, and wrote to my MP. He has also written a good letter to the police questioning how the present keeper can ever be the owner without good title, and suggesting the police get and do what they are paid for, and return the stolen goods to the rightful keeper....me.

If this approach stumbles, we need to pull together, and maybe write to the papers, whichever one likes the police least......

Rest assured, I shall be making a stink....I'm sick of being kicked in the spuds.

I will keep you updated on my progress, and look forward to hearing back from you guys.

Paul. Titan500

Edited by Avant on 07/08/2011 at 17:03

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Just a thought, but have you claimed for the theft of your car on an insurance policy? I may be wrong, but I bet that if the insurance company paid you out, and were told where it was, they would getting it back promptly.

Edited by Avant on 15/08/2011 at 20:49

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - sydoggkdy

Hello all,

I stumbled accross this thread whilst googling as I am in exactly the same position.

My dads motorcycle was in storage, it was taken and sold without our knowledge. I only found out it wasn't in storage when I went to collect it. Reported it stolen to the police and they say they can't do squat, it's a civil matter they say.

Requested information(via V888 form) from the DVLA so I could invetigate who took it so I could take them to court but they refused me the information and said the police have access to all DVLA records, this gave me the impression they want me to go to the police about it ?

I'm at a lost end, would you guys keep this thread updated with your progress incase anyone gets any luck with the police.

Good luck,

Simon

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hi Simon.....

I must admit, that I got quite encouraged when I found this forum, as you did. However, since I posted, there have been no replies at all, which is disappointing.

With regard your dad's bike Simon, is the situation slightly different to others on this thread? ie. you presumably don't know where the bike is.

With my car, the police know who has it, and we pretty much know who sold it without my consent, but because that person has not responded to messages left by the police, they have decided that a prosecution is unlikely, and it is therefore a civil matter. Admittedly, a prosecution is unlikely, as I feel sure that person will come up with a b/s story, and will not admit to disposing of my car.

I have written to the Legal Services dept at Kent police H/Q, who were totally unhelpful, if not obstructive....and I have written to my MP. He agrees with my arguments, and has said so, in a letter to the police Area Commander. I am now waiting for a response to the MP's letter, but I will certainly post the response here.

Back to the bike...........have the police taken details to treat the bike as a stolen vehicle, or are they refusing to even do that? You may be able to register an interest in the bike at HPI........if you ring 83600 you may be able to find out about that. But basically, if anybody attempts to HPI that reg number, HPI will call you and let you know...

Get back with some more details Simon, and let's hope the others on the thread sign in too......

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - sydoggkdy

Hello, my story goes as follows,

My dad sold his old office to someone he knew, he asked if it would be possible to store his motorcycle in the back of it as the person he sold it to was only using it as a storage facility. We asked the new owner of the office if we could get the bike back and at that time he said that the bike had been moved and is now in a builders storage yard. He later changed his story and said he had no recollection of where the motorcycle is. My theory is the motorcycle was stored with the builders and one of them has taken it and sold it but the police don't want to investigate the matter.

The police have told me it's registered to someone in Glasgow so they know where it is but have basically point blank refused to do anything about it. They have told me that I need to take the current registered keeper to court because it is him that my problem is with, dispute of ownership. But I feel that the police need to do a little bit of detective work to ascertain who it was who sold it to him or took it from the storage premises in the first place but their just not interested.

I get the feeling that we would need someone with authority to persuade the police into doing something about it, the local MP is a good shout, I may write a quick letter to my local MP and ask his opinions on it.

I just don't like how the police are the ones to decide whether a matter is civil or criminal, remembering the fact that "the law is open to interpretation". Someone needs to stand up and tell the police how to do their jobs but at the moment I can't think of anyone who can.

I hope the Police reconsider your case after reading the letter from your MP. Once the police decide a vehicle is stolen in one of our situations the others can use that as munition to persuade their local bobbies.

Cheers, Simon

Edited by sydoggkdy on 17/08/2011 at 22:52

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - sydoggkdy

Hello everyone,

I see this thread is still ongoing. I have a nice little update...

After my last post almost a year ago and shortly after the Police made enquiries into the current registered keeper of the bike, my Father's motorcycle was for sale by a local garage on the autotrader.

I went down to the Police station and made an official complaint regarding the Police doing nothing about a stolen motorcycle and insisted I spoke to someone with a little more authority. I eventually spoke to someone more senior and over the space of a few hours convinced the Police that yes, the mororbike was stolen. So the officers brought the case forward to the procurator fiscal(Scotland) and he also confirmed the motorcycle was stolen.

However, this was to no avail as the first person who registered the bike i.e the person who stole it, is now deceased and so, the Police cannot pursue any criminal convictions. Meaning I would have to take the current registered keeper to civil court. The Police didn't care.

Fortunatly, the procurator fiscal helped me out a little bit by 'freezing' the bike so the current garage could not sell until our dispute was sorted.

So early this year my Father and I took the garage own to court and sued for our possesions to be delivered to us. The garage contested legal ownership so the case was posponed until September 2012. We presented all our evidence to the court and garage owner: V5, MOT, hand book, owners manual, etc, etc. And the Friday before our court hearing which was set for the Monday, the owner of the garage emailed me and said he gives up and I can come and bike up our motorcycle. Had the case gone to court I was 99.9% confident we would have won.

I went through picked the bike up and I am happy to say I am now the legal owner and legal registered keeper which my Father passed down to me, of a rather lovely, 1981 BMW R65.

Now, I am not here to gloat but to share my victory so if anyone has any questions that I could perhaps answe,r which might help any of you guys out. Please ask away. I don't know if any of you guys are in Scotland but if you are then possibly civil court is the way to go or shouting at the Police until someone takes you serious.

Bottom line is, certainly in Scotland: if someone sells property without good title then that property still belongs to the individual who has good title.

Let me know if I can help out.

Regards, Simon :)

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Avant

We're only amateurs on this forum, and although we try to help each other by giving advice when we can, if the legal problems are complex we wouldn't want to give advice beyond our level of knowledge for obvious reasons.

The problems here are about who has title (ownership) to an asset, and although the basic principle is a simple one ('nemo dat quod non habet'. i.e. you can't pass title to goods if you don't own them yourself in the first place), it often isn't simple to establish whether title was passed. Theft is of course a criminal matter and if you know something has been stolen you report it to the police. But the police are understandably wary of spending time on an investigation if the result is going to be a dispute as to title - which is a civil matter.

I think several of you need professional legal advice, and if you think you can't afford it you could try Citizens' Advice.

Sorry I can't be more helpful: I'm an accountant who sometimes lectures on law and I know enough law to know when something is beyond me!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

I understand what you have said about ownership disputes, and I realise that the police are reluctant to act as baillifs in such disputes.

Hopefully, my case, and Simon's, are a little clearer. We have both reported our vehicles stolen, and the police now know where they are. However, in my case, I have the original V5 and the vehicles keys, and the convertible top of the car.....surely these items would have been passed on to the new owner had it changed hands legitimately........and I'm guessing Simon's case is similar. ie. docs and keys.

I will post up the MP's response as soon as it comes............

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

I seem to be making some progress with the press-I've just received confirmation that Mini Magazine are running my story in this month's issue, out on Friday 26th August-hopefully the Police will now start to take notice:) Please buy a copy, cut out the article and send it to:

North Wales Police Headquarters

Glan-y-Don

Abergele Road

Colwyn Bay

LL29 8AW

Telling them how shocked you are at their complete lack of commitment to their job!

As far as getting anywhere with the Police themselves I'm still no where further forward. I've appealed to the IPCC for the 2nd time and I've also lodged complaints against the Police's Legal dept and the 3 individuals who disagree with the law to the:

Solicitors Regulation Authority
Ipsley Court
Berrington Close
Redditch
Worcestershire
B98 0TD

Direct line: 01926 439 741
Direct fax: 01926 487 106

Report@sra.org.uk

In the hope that they will examine the case and take action against the individuals whom seem to have so little understanding of the law.

Other than this I have pretty much run out of ideas, if you get in touch with Belinda she can forward my contact details and maybe we can all come up with something together?

Good luck to all!

Edited by TheBaronGroog on 23/08/2011 at 13:48

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hey Baron....glad to see you have come back with a progress report. I still have not had a response from my local MP, but rest assured, it will be posted here when I do. I wrote complaining to the Chief Constable of Kent at police HQ in Maidstone, and as I wasn't sure if this was the right person, or location, to write to, I marked the envelope clearly in large letters, "PLEASE REDIRECT IF INCORRECTLY ADDRESSED".

I sent copies of all the correspondance to date, plus copies of the documentation for the car, so it was quite a bundle. The reply came back from the Legal Dept, even though there was no mention of them in the address, and their reply did not include any of the documents I sent, and they helpfully suggested I wrote to some particular officer who was located........guess where? At the same address and postcode as my letter was sent !

How b***** unhelpful and down right obstructive......are you telling me there is no way they can send my letter to another department within the same building?

Sadly, these people......civil servants......paid by us, to serve us.....can be very unhelpful.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - nortones2

Perhaps you should send a reminder letter, plus the Legal dept's timewaster, to the Chief Constable, cc Kent `Police Authority. Ask the Chief personally for a substantive reply. Gently suggest the legal-eagles are letting the side down by being obtuse. Surely not what the Chief would want in delivering the policing plan?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

Hi titan,

A little progress, but only if the Police are shamed into doing anything!

I'm trying to get as much media coverage of it as possible in the hope that either the Police do their job or that a decent solicitor with some big kahunas sees this mess and picks up the case. this is clearly a growing problem and the more people we can band together and kick up a fuss the more likely the Police are going to be to do something. I've just created this group on facebook: my car has been stolen and the Police won't do anything about it!

join it and we'll see if we can find others-my work facebook has over 4000 members and all petrol heads so will do an open invite on there!

Belinda has been on the phone today and she's made some progress with regards to the laws the Police have been quoting-apparently the laws have been superceded and the new laws are more than enough to get any of our cars recovered.

Have you been in touch with Belinda? i don't want to post my/her details on a public forum, but her facebook is easily findable-if we all group together we may be able to get somewhere. If you can send her your email address and get her to pass it on to me I can invite you all to google buzz which will allow us to chat online and share information a lot easier then at present.

Don't stand for the run around, lodge a complaint with the solictors governing body I listed above, also if you look at Kent Police's site you should find more avenues of complaint-getting anything to the Chief is a nightmare-I know from trying to get to the Chief of NWP!

Good luck and keep me posted!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

HelpMyCarHasBeenStolenAndThePoliceWillNotHelp@groups.facebook.com

^not exaclty a catchy email address, but thought the name said it well! Join this group: my car has been stolen and the Police won't do anything about it!

Or email the address above!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

Right, more progress-The One Show have been on the phone and are looking at running with the story:)

please send your contact details to HelpMyCarHasBeenStolenAndThePoliceWillNotHelp@groups.facebook.com

and i'll pass them on-the more of there are there more likely they are to run with it!

Fingers crossed!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

That's great news Baron......how did they get to hear of your story?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

I contacted them and about any other TV programme or paper/magazine that I thought might be interested! join the facebook group for more info!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel







Relevant to titan 500 case

It does not matter where you leave your car be it on your drive way out on the public highway or on the moon. There is no hard fast rule except if you claim on your insurance, and your policy states that it has to be garaged between dusk and dawn if of course that is the box you ticked when taking out your policy, but thats just from the insurance point of view and only relevant when making a claim.

The woman who said you could leave the car parked there on the land you previously occupied I assume was where it normally lived therefore insurance should not be a problem if claiming.

Now on a more personal note may i ask if the finance company that took you to court and won were hopefully NOT the finance company for your car??? whereby as you say as they won their claim against you if it was against the car then they would be in their rights to seize the vehicle. Again hopefully that is no9t the case!!

PROOF OF OWNERSHIP Many people think that the V5 document is Proof of Ownership!! It is most definately not the case as the DVLA will tell you. What is your proof of ownership is "YOUR ORIGINAL RECEIPT OF PURCHASE' the rest ie your V5 will just add substanance to your claim of rightful ownership, but lets face it especially well hopefully from the police point of view "who would buy a car from a person and not require al the paperwork" ie receipts old MOT's The Keys etc lets face it you would expect all of these items if the car was being sold legit wouldn't you so anyone parting with their cash for your car under anything less then this must surely know something is wrong ie stolen I myself would run a mile if all these items were not to hand especially no V5 or the master keys ie the 2nd keys which are usually used for obtaining new keys if you loose the other set. The thief however could be crafty enough to apply for a V5 before stealing the car ( As you will all see from the web sites I will be showing the DVLA really do not know their ass from their elbow) So I suggest at this stage (EVERYONE REAPPLIES FOR A KNEW V5 DOCUMENT) You have nothing to loose from this and everything to gain by firstly finding out where your car is at this point and also getting your car back into your name. If you have the old V5 great just make it slightly doggy eared and ask for a replacement. The DVLA are making so manly mistakes right now that I am sure you will have no problems at all and I am sure they are not getting any better with more cars being registered and no plans to recruit any other people. I am pretty sure this is how the thief took advantage (See watchdog and the DVLA). 

GOOD TITLE - A THIEF CANNOT PASS ON GOOD TITLE to something that he/she does not own and therefore good title remains with the person who legitimately purchased the car to begin with ie YOU so therefore no matter how many times the car is passed on  GOOD TITLE in the eyes of the law may not be passed on the with the vehicle or any property. What they are doing is passing on stolen goods.

When you originally went to retrieve your car from the woman who had taken over the let, did you not ask her "where is my car"??? Im sure you did but just asking as I am curious to know what she said!! If I remember you saying was it not a lockup so to speak so how did the thief get it out?? Did you at anytime give her a set of keys? or did all your keys remain in your possession?? Assuming that you had all your keys and the vehicle was locked then the only way that I know that a locked car could be entered and driven way would be to force the locks and ram something like a screw driver in the steering column there in its own right three offences the third being driving it off without consent. 

Where people get confused is when a car may be passed on several time.s The chances are the person who stole it will more often than not sell it on to lets say a person they probably know through a person that is not 'YOUR HONEST JANE OR JOE' a person who really does not care too much where it came from but knows he can sell it on to make a Profit.

Your Beef is not with the present keeper and thats all it is in the eyes of the DVLA. The DVLA will assure you that the V5 document is nothing more that the registered keeper 'IT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP'" This document does not imply in anyway shape of form that just because you have the V5 document with your name and address that you are the rightful owner, you are just the keeper. This is in fact stated on the V5 document in red and capital letters. I have heard so many times that all of us although variations of our circumstances of how our cars were stolen, still all end up in the eyes of the police as far as they are concerned is a CIVIL MATTER. "NO IT IS NOT pure and simple a criminal offence had taken place. Where the police suggest that it is a civil matter, and that you have to take the person who has your car now to court is a load of rubbish. Your beef is NOT with the last person in the chain who has at present your car in their possession, but with the THIEF who stole it from you. (we've all watched on the tv where the police refer to TWOC (TAKING WITHOUT CONSENT.  The person or KEEPER at this point of time has no claim on you if you take the car back he/she only has a claim with the person who sold it to them and as "GOOD TITLE" was not past on through them as it could never be ie Good title cannot be passed on through the thief.

The present keeper, once made aware that they have stolens goods also has no title as the person it was originally stolen from has "BETTER TITLE" in the eyes of the law. They will have no legal claim to keep the vehicle and at the best only be in a position to claim against the person that sold it to them. You as in Us on the other hand have suffered a loss through theft and this is a criminal matter, and should therefore be prosecuted UNDER SECTION 12 of the theft act 1968

The Police are obliged to, providing the known whereabouts of the stolen vehicle, and as most of us have had our cars reregistered, act UNDER SECTION 19 of the Police and Criminal evidence act 1984 ( Go to link to see all referring to section 19)

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/pdfs/ukpga_19...e


I have now found case studies and its all looking VERY GOOD INDEED FOR US also makes quite interesting reading to say the least


I shall post these very shortly and let you all know how to proceed in what actions to take next order to get your PRIDE AND JOY BACK

Bel

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel
HERE ARE SOME ORGINISATION THAT MAY BE ABLE TO HELP

Anything and everything must be worth a try




1. Home Secretary

2. Police

3. Government

4. European court of human rights

5. Local MP The Party your happy with

6. Government Appointed party in power MP

7. Put the cat amongst the pigeons ie or throw the bone to all parties ie conservatives, Labour, liberals, free world etc. They'll all be looking for your vote !!!

8. IPCC ( Independent Police Complaints Division )

9. Register a claim through the County Court ( You don't need a solicitor to fill out what is relatively an easy form. I think it's about £65 or there about. At least It starts the ball rolling to get just to get the case heard in
the presence of a judge

10. See a solicitor about taking action against the police on the grounds of
FAILURE TO PROVIDE DUTY OF CARE which I am sure one of us if
no more should win. Its quite easily to claim compensation. The Police
I think will most probably settle out of court ie they don't want media publicity or add to their already poor reputation

11. The CAB Citizens Advice Bureau have also be a great help to many

Feel free anyone to add to the list if you can think of anywhere else to go
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Good news.....following Baron's efforts, Anna from the 1 Show has just called me and has taken the details of my case.

Belinda.....the court case I mentioned was entirely unrelated to the theft of the car in this thread. The car was left in a lock up on the car-lot, which the new tenant had access to, though she did not have the car keys. The car was hand built, and therefore not a sophisticated piece of machinery. There was no steering lock, or security devices.

As you rightly said, the first person to take posession of my car when it left the lock-up, got no keys or documentation with it whatsoever.

I feel encouraged folks, thankyou for all your efforts.

Hey Simon, if you are following the thread......join Baron's facebook group using the link above. The theft of your dad's bike, is after all very similar.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - pugswhdi

Firstly, I wish you all well in your efforts to get these cars back (particularly the person whose car was stolen while they were in hospital) but don't waste too much of your lives fighting what appears to be a very draining process. Don't forget that there cannot be many cars/motorbikesworthy of taking over your life (and I say that as a petrol head into both).

A common theme to most of these cases is not having somewhere that is secure and under your control to store the now stolen item. A basic requirement for me is having somewhere that is under my control to store any car/bike I have. That's why in my experience it's often very hard to rent garages because people are constantly looking for one for their pride and joy weekend vehicle.

Even if they were insured I don't think the insurance would pay up for keeping it in another person lock up. A non vehicle related example is that when my best mate lost his storage facility for tools and kit his business insurance wouldn't provide cover whilst it was in my garage, even temporarily as he didn't have sole access to the insured items. I'm fairly sure that it is likely that a vehicle insurance policy is the same but think it is also likely that these vehicles were not insured as otherwise they wouldn't have needed to stay at the storage facilty that had recently been given up.

All the best folks but keep the loss in perpective with the rest of your lives and loved ones!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Thankyou for your comments, and I can see there is some wisdom in what you have said. It is easy to let a fight take over your life,

However, I'm not going down without a darn good scrap. My car belongs to me, and I want it back. If the likes of us in this thread don't make a fuss about this situation, nothing will ever change, and the reluctance of the police to do their job will positively encourage further thefts. In my own case, because they can't contact the woman that sold/gave away my car, and they believe the current keeper is entirely innocent, they have ceased enquiries and washed their hands of it. So all you have to do, is appear innocent, and provide a trail of keepers that cannot be traced, and bingo ! the car's is yours.

For those of you following this thread.....still no reply as yet from my MP's letter to the police area commander.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel
thank you pugswhdi for your comments and concern it is well appreciated, but for most of us it is more than the meer theft. We all pay our council tax (part of which goes to pay police wages right?? then surely we are owed a duty of care!!

In my case sad as it may seem it was everything to me and not a car that you can buy off the shelf so to speak. Even sadder when I think about it not really having much of a family I spent every spare penny on it. I feel this way and I'm a girl so I can imagine how the guys feel.

It's a sense of injustice, we know what the law is, what the police are meant to do but are ( and I don't think I speak for myself here ) very frustrated that the law is not working for us as it should be.

I want my car back no ifs no buts end of, and I do have somewhere to put it when (not if) but when I get it back.

Most of us having spent so much time and effort on trying to retrieve it have reached the point of no return and I know and I think I speak for all, that it will eat at us and we will not be able to carry on or should I say put a 100% into our normal lives until these vehicles are rightly returned to us
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Innocent smoothie

Dear fellow victims

I am in the same predicament , my vehicle registration has been changed without my knowledge but police say it’s a civil issue.... Fraud is not a biggie I guess!

So what’s next ? Not sure what legal action I can take. Any suggestions on how to find a solicitor, have anyone sought legal advice?

Please help.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Please elaborate Smoothie.......has you car been stolen?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - jamie745

Sometimes i wonder why i bother paying tax.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Sometimes i wonder why i bother paying tax.

I know where you're coming from Jamie.......We often watch those Police.Camera.Action programmes, where you regularly see police chasing what they suspect to be a stolen vehicle, at high speed, across the county....and ultimately the copper chopper comes out to assist.

Seems strange that they know where my car is, and they wont go and get it ?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - jamie745

Someone has an untaxed Ford Sierra somewhere and they send the entire force out in pursuit but you tell them where your stolen car is and they cant be bothered.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel
the copper chopper comes out to assist.

Yes the certainly do titan at a cost of £1,500 per 15 minutes to us "tax payers", this I know being an aviator myself. None of it makes sense does it.???

I have had a reply today from my MP who says he is going to look into it. If he comes through he's got my vote. In my email I sent him I said I was not alone and that there are others around the country in the same situation. I suggest if you guys haven't done already, is to contact your local MP with your story and also say like I have that there are others in the same situation that have contacted their local MP, you never know it may create a bit of MP rivalry and competition amongst themselves to stand out as the MP who triumphs and saves the day who knows lol.

As soon as I get any info I will post it.

Also my brother has two friends in his cycling club that are in the police force and I have asked him if he would ring them to see if they may offer some assistants.

What many people don't realise is that because the police pass on the burden of motor vehicle theft to the insurance companies,and a direct result of this means we all suffer in the way of higher premiums when insuring our cars, not just for the people that have had to make a claim but for each and every person who has a car on the road and surely this is not fair as a result of the police failing or let's say even trying to recover a stolen car even when they know where it is.

If you car is stolen INFORM YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY, AND IF THE POLICE KNOW WHERE IT IS AND ARE RESISTANT TO RECOVER IT, TELL THE INSURANCE COMPANY "AND GET THEM TO FIGHT WITH OR FOR YOU" they actually do have a lot of clout as the last thing they want to do is pay you out.
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Bel
Innocent Smoothie Sadly welcome sounds like the rest of us that you have sadly got nowhere with the police. May I suggest you do what most of us have done contact you MP and tell him/her your story say there are others and let him/her know that basically the police have failed in their duty of care. The only way any if us will get justice is to become a Thorne in their peverbiale backsides where they will eventually act just to make you finally go away.

go through the list above and contact them all. Do one letter and cc it to all and sudry if you think of any we haven't thought of please enlighten us


best of luck remember you are no longer alone


Bel
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500
My MP wrote to the area commander of Kent police on August the 4th, and has not yet had a response nearly 2 months down the line !
I sent him a reminder letter yesterday...........just imagine if plod wanted something from me and I kept them waiting that long !

The guy who has my car was trying to sell it when the police approached him......and now they have given him a further 8 weeks to dispose of it.
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

My MP responded today.....he has sent my letter on to the Area Commander of Kent police , which is good. I said that The One Show had approached me with a view to doing an article.......wonder if that'll kick start plod?

Have you heard any more from The One Show baron? I dropped a reminder email to Anna yesterday.

Edited by Titan500 on 05/10/2011 at 20:42

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - pic

I am another innocent person who has had their car stolen which in itself is quite distressing, however the police then contacted me to advise they have found my car in Kent. At first I was quite excited and found the new promising however the car was stolen mid August whilst I was away on holiday and here I am towards the end of October no further forward. The police say that the they will not seize the car as this is now a civil case and I need to go via the interpleader system. My insurance company haven't paid out on the theft yet so apparantely they have their hands tied and cannot get involved - the police have even lodged a complaint against them for trying to tell them how to do their job! I am just incredibly frustrated and want my car back but have no idea - without substantial costs and fight to me - how I can achieve this. This is just so wrong. I paid £8,000 for this car which was a substantial amount of money to me and i have the V5 document along with all other relevant paper work to prove that the car is mine. What is wrong with the legal system?! I have contacted a solicitor who advised that she will write to the police with a strong letter reminding them of their obligations but judging by other reports on the forum of honest john this may not be a solution. I feel really strongly about this - I could probably get the insurance company to pay out for the car but they won't pay what the car is worth so I will be out of pocket plus I will then lose my no claims and my insurance on any replacement car will be more money. Why should he get to drive around in my car - whether he bought it innocently or not why should I be the one who comes out of this out of pocket?! It is just wrong. Please help!!!

Thanks,

frustrated pic from Oldham

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

Hi all,

I've had no further news on this, I will give my contacts a chase. I have found a solictor who may be willing to take my case on-just need to pay him a visit to see what can be done.

G

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hi all,

I've had no further news on this, I will give my contacts a chase. I have found a solictor who may be willing to take my case on-just need to pay him a visit to see what can be done.

G

Hi Baron....thanks for the update.

I have written several emails to Anna from the 1 show now, without reply...which I find disappointing. Presumably you've heard nothing either?

Paul

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hello pic.....welcome along. You are in good company here.....we all know how you feel, and we share your frustration. I guess you have read through the thread, so you will have an idea where we are with this issue.

In my own case, the car was not covered by insurance, but in yours....surely the insurance company are obligated to pay you, and once they do, the car will become theirs. I would be very interested to know what action they will then take to recover their asset. I really can't believe they will sit back and accept that it's a civil matter and do nothing. Can you not contact the insurance company and find out what they will do? Maybe even thrash out a deal with them? They are not in the business of losing money, and can be most tenacious when it comes to ensuring they don't.

You can see on here the routes people have taken, please let us know what action you take and keep us up to date with your progress.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Well there's a thing !

It's sunday November 6th, and I'm watching a program on Sky channel 109 (watch) called, Cars, cops and criminals. It started at 11pm, and the first atricle is about stolen caravans. A team of police officers have gone to a steam rally in order to perform routine checks on the many caravans at the rally. They have checked the identities of a number of the caravans, and discovered several that are reported stolen. The people in posession of the stolen caravans, have given accounts of how they purchased their caravans, but are told by the officers that the caravans do not belong to them, and the caravans are towed away there and then for return to the rightful owners. One man who questions the action, is told that the caravan will be returned to the legal owner, and his contract is with the person he paid for the caravan, and he will have to persue them. All of the people who have bought stolen caravans, have them cofiscated, as, according to the police they will be returned to the legal owners, or the insurance companies who have paid out on them.

This is exactly what should be happening with our cars. The theft of a car is a criminal act. Period. When a stolen car is found, it should be returned to the legal owner, which may be an individual, or an insurance company. Yes it's tough on the person that loses the car, but it simply isn't his....that's the law. He doesn't have good title. He will have to persue his losses from the person he bought it from, and so on along the line. Someone will be out of pocket for sure.....but why would it be the innocent legal owner of the car?

Can anyone explain why the police are recovering the caravans in the program I've just watched, but they refuse to get involved in our stolen cars? What's the difference?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Further to my previous post, click on this link to read the brief description of the episode to which I refer.

www.mirror.co.uk/tv-entertainment/tv/todays-tv/201.../

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - ads127

hi , i am in a similar predicament , my car was stolen , although in my case the logbook and keys were taken as well, i reported it to the police , was contacted yesterday by the police (3 months later) to say they had stopped my car and the people that bought it had bought it in good faith , so its now a civil matter , i know where the car is and will be taking it back tonight regardless of the consequences , surely if someone steals my car and its a civil matter then when i steal it back it should also be a civil matter , i will post up on here once ive taken it back and let you know how i get on , if all goes well then maybe we should set up a car snatch back squad and go as a group to each location our cars are at , im not pepared to let this alone , that was my property and i want it back , i really hope some of you have more luck in getting your cars back , i will be setting up an online petition maybe if we get enough people to sign it then someone might take some notice and realise that there MUST be a change in the law

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - ads127

Just a quick update people , there is now an online petition on change.org

we need as many people to sign this as we can , tell everyone you know

www.change.org/petitions/british-police-forces-and...s

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hi ads.....I like your style. Let us know how the recovery operation goes. Did you check out the program I referred to a couple of posts back? I fail to see why the police were taking the stolen caravans away from innocent purchasers, but refuse to do the same with any of our cars......stolen caravans are a crime but stolen cars aren't?

When I failed to get a satisfactory response from the police myself, I contacted my local MP, who wrote to the Area Commander on my behalf....that was on August the 4th. The only response we have had in almost 4 months, is to be asked for copies of letters and documents which they had already been given.

If there are any lawyers reading this by chance, where can we read what the law actually says about stolen goods, and their recovery? We all know that you can never inherit better title to goods than the person has that sells you them, and therefore a car which is stolen, technically never belongs to anyone other than the original owner, regardless of how many times it changes hands or how innocent the keeper claims to be.

What progress, if any, is anyone else making? I got quite excited when the One show contacted me in response to BaronGroogs efforts.......they even asked if I would be willing to go infront of the camera in a program to hilight our plight. Then, suddenly, all contact ceased despite several emails from me. I even wrote direct to the show, instead of direct to the reporter I had been corresponding with, to see if she had left , or dropped the idea, but didn't even get a response to that email? What's going on?

Do we need to write direct to Cameron, and cut out all the others, or what about the papers? Keep the iedeas coming please, we can't let this drop.....it's wrong !

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - ads127

Soooo........ i went and took my car back , quite forcibly i must admit , parked it outside my house , took the useless police 25 minutes to come and arrest me , so i was charged with theft of a motor vehicle , to which i argued ,. noooo its a civil matter , anyhow as the story goes , they returned the car to the people who shouldnt really have it , and bailed me , soon as i was bailed i went straight back round there and took it again , this time when they arrested me i told them i bought it in good faith and surely its a civil matter , the answer to that is ... No , so anyhow , just spent a night in the cells for commiting an offence while on bail so i thought id come and post an update before i go again and take it for a third time , i have a feeling that this time i will not get bail but to be quite honest i dont really give a toss , just rang the sun, mirror , news of the world and the metro , told them my story and whats going on, so when i get my phone call it will now be to my mate who is going to ring all those papers up and have plenty of press in court , so we will see what the judge has to say when i tell him the second they let me out i will be going back round there to take MY PROPERTY back .

not a lot else to say at the minute , i will try and keep you all posted on the outcome , the only way to get a change in the law is to make a stand , some of you may think that what im doing is wrong but i have a feeling that most of you will agree that something needs to be done , dont forget to get all your friends to sign the petition , because as i said regardless of the consequences i will continue to take my vehicle back until somebody takes notice

im sure the papers will have something to say about it when i become the most prolific car theif of the year , gonna be the only person to take the same car over and over again lol ,

anyhow peace out people will post up when i can , im off to get my car back AGAIN

Edited by Avant on 29/11/2011 at 22:41

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Avant

As Titan 500 says above, the law as it stands gives you good title to the car, as the thief couldn't pass title to the subsequent 'purchaser' that he didn't have.

Is the problem here that without the V5 (log book) you can't prove to the police that the car is yours?

Good luck!

Edited by Avant on 29/11/2011 at 22:45

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Avant....obviously I can't speak for Ads, but I doubt it has anything to do with the V5. My car was stolen, and I still have the V5. I also have the keys and the roof ! It is a convertible with a detachable roof you see.....

AND the police still won't recover it for me !

I had owned the car for 6 years or so and no longer had a receipt, but I offered to obtain proof of purchase, and the investigating officer said it wasn't necessary.....so he obviously believed me.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Avant

I agree - if you were able to find your car you would surely be within your rights to drive it away and reclaim it..

As Belinda says toward the top of this thread: "I spoke to a criminal lawyer friend who told me I was well in my rights to just go and seize the car back."

What I can't understand is why the police are arresting Ads for doing just that - unless they for some reason doubt his title to the car.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

What would be handy, is the reference from the appropriate act that confirms you are within your rights to sieze the car back. Can you get that information? The last email I sent to Belinda, she didn't reply......

Edited by Titan500 on 01/12/2011 at 21:16

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Avant

The principle that you can't give title that you haven't got (nemo dat quod non habet) is enshrined in case-law.

But it's backed up by s.21 Sale of Goods Act 1979:

21 Sale by person not the owner.E+W+S+N.I.

(1)Subject to this Act, where goods are sold by a person who is not their owner, and who does not sell them under the authority or with the consent of the owner, the buyer acquires no better title to the goods than the seller had, unless the owner of the goods is by his conduct precluded from denying the seller’s authority to sell.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - buyerbewaremeansnothing

I am currently going through this.. my car was stolen from me by deception on Friday then sold on Saturday and the new owner now believes he is the owner of the car, I have the log book so he cannot register it and the car is still tagged as Stolen.

On Tuesday evening, My advert was still on Autotrader. The guy and his brother had just bought the car in suspicious cirmcumstances and wanted to check out the value online as they had paid around 50% of the real value. so when he saw me advertising the car, rang to ask me some questions. It was obvious quickly that the number plates matched and the car they had was the car that was stolen. I told them to contact the police so they could return the car to me.. the guy who called me was the brother of the guy who had the car and was very reasonable. Sadly the brother who had the car was not. He called me soon after to say he bought the car in what he believed was legitimate circumstances so its his car and if i wanted it back I would have to buy it from him! and if i didnt he would break the car into many pieces and sell it to recoupe some of the money. i then called the police to tell them what had happened and I knew who had the car and could they get it back as this guy was threatening to break it up and would deny ever having it.. the police did nothing as no one was yet assigned to my case.. (formal statemenrt was made on Tuesday)

anyway..Wednesday morning, i called again to find out if someone could help me.. i was told id have to wait until maybe 3 or 4pm when someone may be assigned to my case.. so in this time, id found my stolen vehicle, been blackmailed and the police would not do anything. Anyway I was assigned a police officer around 10am after kicking up a stink.. the police officer came to see me to recover some CCTV of the guy who stole my car so I asked when I get my car back.. he said id have to take the new "owner" to civil court to get my car back, or come to a personal agreement with him where I buy my car back! I was also given the line "possesion is 9, 10ths of the law" - I also have the nd key to the car and if I go and get my car back i coul dbe arrested.. for theft of my own car..

Anyway the guy who now has the car rang me, tried to be reasonable but said he was still not returning my car as he felt it was now his car. he said he would go and talk to the police with the paperwork he was given when sold the car and see where he stood.. he said he would call me when he came out the station.. since then Ive heard nothing. so i have no idea if he went to the station at all..

I have since contacted some people to get some publicity. I now have a relative who was a police officer and is working on this with the duty inspector. The current information is that I should not pay the guy any money , he should have taken the car to the police station but still "may" have a claim to the car!.

The guy who stole my car has now been arresated on MANY other offences and my theft is not an issue and may just go on file. They may not even prosecute for it as they have mountains of other evidence that will put him away for a while.. - i explained this isnt my concern, my concern is my car and I thought that it was the duty of the police to return my stolen vehicle.. apparently not! SO basically you can buy a stolen car and keep it.. so where it says buyer beware on the front of a V5 it means nothing..

to be continued..

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

This is so crazy......the police have lost the plot. I think they are not interested in pursuing any case where a prosecution may prove slightly difficult, and they use the "civil matter" line as a get out. It's utter horse crap, does this attitude apply to all stolen goods now, or are cars a special case. The law is now positively condoning/encouraging car theft, as they refuse to return the stolen vehicles to their owners. How can a stolen car ever be civil?

I received a letter from my MP yesterday, ....the police have finally responded to him, after 4 months ! They seem to be suggesting that they are not recovering my car because they had no record of my original letter reporting the theft, and that the V5 was never in my name. b***** ironic really, because they have since lost/mislaid all of the documents I sent them, (so is it a surprise they have no record of my original report)...and a V5 clearly states it's not proof of ownership. I offered to obtain proof that the car was mine 8 months ago, and they told me it was not necessary, after all, I still have the original keys and the original V5, and the car's detachable roof....looks like I shall have to do it anyway !

Where do we write next? My MP carried zero clout, so the next letter I write to the feds will definitely give them the miseries. Or perhaps we should stop sodding about and write to the PM? What about the major rags? Anyone got any suggestions?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Avant

What I find incomprehensible is not so much the police's reluctance to be involved (lack of evidence to catch the thief, usually) as the threats that they would arrest you for recovering your own car when you have proof of ownership.

Anyone know what the justification could be?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

It's all gone quiet folks, what's happening? Have you all run out of puff? That's what happens in these struggles against authority, they stonewall you, give you the run around and hope you just run out of steam......it stinks when you feel you have a just arguement, and nobody will listen. The ONE show thing was wierd....the reporter emailed me several times and was double enthused, even asked me if I would be happy to state my case in front of the camera.....to which I of course agreed. Then suddenly, as if a switch had been thrown, nothing ! She stopped responding to my emails....I wrote several, and I even wrote direct to the show to ask what had happened several times....but not a single reply. Is it possible they were told to leave this contraversial issue alone? After all. I would presume that what applies to cars, also applies to other stolen property, surely cars are not some sort of special case.....and the action, or lack of, by the police, effectively condones the theft of these cars. If the general public got to hear of this it would doubtlessly be damaging for people's opinion of the law.

Did any of you see the documentary showing the police confiscating caravans from people at a steam rally? I didn't once hear an officer say, " it appears stolen, but it's a civil matter". No sir....they took the caravans right away, there and then.

BARON....did the ONE show drop you too?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

It's all gone quiet folks, what's happening? Have you all run out of puff? That's what happens in these struggles against authority, they stonewall you, give you the run around and hope you just run out of steam......it stinks when you feel you have a just arguement, and nobody will listen. The ONE show thing was wierd....the reporter emailed me several times and was double enthused, even asked me if I would be happy to state my case in front of the camera.....to which I of course agreed. Then suddenly, as if a switch had been thrown, nothing ! She stopped responding to my emails....I wrote several, and I even wrote direct to the show to ask what had happened several times....but not a single reply. Is it possible they were told to leave this contraversial issue alone? After all. I would presume that what applies to cars, also applies to other stolen property, surely cars are not some sort of special case.....and the action, or lack of, by the police, effectively condones the theft of these cars. If the general public got to hear of this it would doubtlessly be damaging for people's opinion of the law.

Did any of you see the documentary showing the police confiscating caravans from people at a steam rally? I didn't once hear an officer say, " it appears stolen, but it's a civil matter". No sir....they took the caravans right away, there and then.

BARON....did the ONE show drop you too?

Hi, yes the one show dropped me, inexplicably just went quiet as did some other media I was talking to.

Haven't made any more progress, was speaking to a solicitor about it but he's gone cold too.

At a loss as to what to do, no one cares and I can't see myself making progress.

However, I haven't given up-I will persue the matter-just have been busy with my new daughter!

Any more news from anyone else?

How did the guy who stole his car back get on?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - focussed

This thread is terrific news-it means that I can legally go stealing motors and selling them on, and the plod won't do anything about it, can anybody tell me when this change in the law took place?

Except that where I live-In France-you won't get away with this sort of blag. The plod over here aren't little five foot six inch weasels with glasses, they are usually six foot plus with an attitude problem and built like brick outhouses and they don't like thieves. If you dish them them out a load of mouth over here you will find yourself bumping into doors and falling over and hurting yourself no end and probably spending the night in a French prison cell-not a pleasant experience I have it on good authority.

Over here, the registered owner on the french V5 is the legal owner and you have to carry the V5 with you at all times to prove that you are the owner of the car that you are driving-if you can't, or you can't prove that you are driving with the owner's permission you get a trip to the cells while they sort it out.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

phew !

I thought I was on my own there for a while lads. Very very glad to see I'm not. In my own case, the police have been positively obstructive. When I sent copies of all the letters and documents to the county police HQ with my letter of complaint, I marked the envelope very clearly, "please forward to the correct dept/officer if incorrectly addressed2. The reply I received did NOT include my bundle of copies, and simply said, that my letter of complaint should be addressed to some particular officer.....and where is this officer? Correct, at police HQ.....the very same building and postcode I had written to. Do they not have internal mail, or someone capable of walking to another room to put my letter in someone's in box? It's just blatant b***** minded obstructiveness.......thing is now, I'm not sure if I want to write again to the "correct" officer, because I just know nothing will happen, and I will waste my energy battling with them. We need to know what the law says.......plod is only there to operate the law, not make it. Surely somewhere there is a paragraph in an act that says stolen goods that are located must be returned to the rightful owner?

What about the papers? Anyone think there is any mileage in going to them?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Oh...and I meant to ask, has anybody checked out the documentary that I referred to in my posts of Novenber 6/7th ? Please take a look....get to see it if there is any way possible. It just totally contradicts everything that this thread is about, and I would like to know how the police can justify this variety of approaches to what is essentially the same crime.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

Hi, not watched the doc, but read the piece you linked to. Yes, it's the same crime and yes, we're getting screwed over.

There are dozens of Police programmes showing situations like ours on a weekly basis and I, nor anyone else I have spoken to, can fathom how the Police are able to avoid doing anything. The excuses they are giving are pure billshut and frankly make me question the morality of all of the forces involved. Our legal system has become a joke and the Police are the clowns-never funny and always a bit sad looking!

I really don't know what to do, no lawyer will touch my case, media has lost all interest and the DVLA won't even give me the guy's address so I can take him to civil court! The "crim" is protected and the victim left high and dry.

I' going to give it one last go with the press-maybe Murdoch's group would like to be seen sticking it to the Old Bill and getting some trust back?!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

I was contemplating/have been contemplating that approach for a long time now. My next move should be, to copy all the docs to date, and send them to the bod at police HQ that the legal dept there suggested . The trouble with that, is that you just know they will push me from pillar to post, and ultimately do **** all.

It's good to hear from you Baron, please keep me posted on your actions/intentions, and I will follow suit. This scandal needs to be brought to the public's notice.

email... pacluc46@aol.com

Paul.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

I was pleasantly surprised to receive a letter from my MP, Sir Roger Gale, yesterday, asking if I had obtained a satisfactory result to my problem.....and could he be of further assistance. I have replied telling him that the return of my stolen car is the only possible satisfactory outcome. I also told him that I would not be pursuing the issue through the police, as I already know that they are going to waste my time and push me from pillar to post until I lose the will to live, and just give up.

I'm not sure which would tactically be the best paper to write to, but yesterday I wrote a brief summary of my situation and sent it to the Sun on sunday....I will of course, keep you posted as to the reult.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hi to anyone still following this thread.

It would be good to hear from any previous posters, what progress has been made, or what avenues of action have been taken.

Personally, I have involved my MP. who thankfully has been supportive, and active. He appears to agree with me on the points I have raised, and I think it would be beneficial for all of us if everyone here were to write to him stating their case. The fact that the police are turning their backs on the innocent victims of motor theft needs to be bought to light.

He can be contacted on galerj@parliament.uk in fact I may also email him myself with a link to this thread.

Paul.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - nortones2

The "Money" sections of newspapers like the Telegraph seem to have the ear of financial institutions. This is definitely a financial hit, due to misconduct in office, I'd say. Jessica has the following banner to her page "Jessica Investigates":

Many readers complain that the financial institutions that are keen to take their money are less willing to answer legitimate questions. Sometimes the power of the press, in the shape of Jessica Gorst-Williams, can help.

Substitute police for financial. We pay them. They tend to forget that.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Apologies....I should have said, my email to the Sunday sun, went unanswered.

I have decided to send a link to this thread to my MP.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - KazCook

Hi

Think you should check out a forum posting called "have you been cheated or ripped off" under legal matters on this site. Looking for stories for new bbc1 programme - yours sounds ideal!!!!!

K

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Thanks Kaz, I'll take a look at that !

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

I've posted there Kaz, with a link back to this thread. I see that the "cheated or ripped off " thread, was started a long time back now. Have you, or any of the other posters there had any response?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Are any of you guys still out there?

Myself and Greg, who started this thread, have far from given up, and are battling on to get justice for ourselves, and hopefully others in the same sorry situation.

I submitted my case to the Professional Standards Department for them to reconsider the actions....sorry, lack of actions, of the police. No surprise really, they still think the theft of my car is a civil matter between me and the current keeper. But then the PSD is a police dept, and therefore far from impartial.

I have also involved my local MP, who agrees with me, that a stolen car stays stolen, a principle known as the law of ongoing tort. section 21(1) of the sale of goods act, covers the concept, that no buyer, in good faith or not, can ever own a stolen car, and title will remain with the true owner. (nemo dat quod non habet).

The above items became law following the case of R W Jones versus National Employees General Insurance in the late 80s, when Mr. Jones innocently bought a stolen car from a dealer, but had the insurance company that paid out the original owner, ask for it back once he registered it. He refused to give it up, and ended up in court. He lost the case, but appealed.......and lost that too.

The Police service statement of common practice states, The purpose of the Police service, is to uphold the law, fairly and firmly etc........which in the light of the above precedent, they are clearly not doing in the cases of those people in this thread.

Sadly, I am not a lawyer...just a van driver, but I shall persist with this battle until I can hopefully get under the skin of someone who will take notice.

If there are any lawyers out there that would be happy to offer some pointers, or help, that would be good, and we would be extremely grateful. Or indeed, anyone in publishing where we can high light this story, that might help too....

Paul.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500
Happy birthday !!!

This thread is a year old today !

I'm not sure how much closer to a satisfactory outcome we have got, but we are still in there scrapping.......
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - TheBaronGroog

My MP has come back to me and suggested I take legal advice, he is recovering from an op at the moment so cannot offer me any more than that.

Once he has recovered he will be back in touch-I'm trying to get him to ask a Parliamentary Question, so could everyone please forward their contact details and MP's details to:

stolencarnotrecovered@gmail.com

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - nortones2

If the situation is still unresolved, the OP might be interested in this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18848481

At least the American police force recognise that title is not extinguished by a chain of transactions.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - focussed

Re the lucky guy recovering his stolen AH after 42 years in the USA-police cars in the states have the motto "Serve and Protect" on each front door don't they? Not some ridiculous social worker/health and safety inspired soppy motto like "Keeping Blankshire Safe" like in the UK.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - nortones2

The mottos are perhaps senior-management focus-group bovine dung in either case. I'd not pay any attention to them. But more important is backbone: do the right thing!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hi guys...glad to see a little action on the thread. First in a long time. I'm not sure if the others have lost interest or maybe the will to live....but Greg, (barongroog), and myself, certainly have not. We have been communicating outside of the forum, but sadly we are still struggling to get anyone to listen to us. We have both approached our MPs, and mine, Sir Roger Gale, seemed very supportive initially, but after a few letters to Kent Police, seems to have folded. He now thinks that nothing can be done, despite the case law reference which I sent him. I read the story about the Healey, and got quite excited, until I noticed it was in the Us. However, the law here is the same.....it matters not how many people have had and parted with the car, none of them owned it. A buyer cannot inherit better title than the seller....that's the LAW ! Calling any sympathetic lawyers, or even folk with some experience/knowledge.... feel free to chip in any wise words. We need all the help we can get.

And....further to your comment above about the US police cars, Protect and Serve etc..

The feds here have statement of purpose, which basically states, their job is to apply the law both fairly and firmly......so why in the cases of the folk on this forum, are they not doing it?

Edited by Titan500 on 16/07/2012 at 19:28

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

A quick up-date for those still following this saga....

My MP, Sir Roger Gale, was supportive and helpful when I first wrote to him, but when his letters to the police didn't change their opinions on the theft of my car, he seems to have lost enthusiasm, and has conceded.

I spoke to the officer who investigated the theft, to see if I ncould get his opinion as to whether he believed my car was actually stolen, or if I even ever owned it at all, but he was totally non-committal.

Following this, I wrote for sight of his report under the Freedom of Information Act, but police HQ have refused to give me it, for whatever reason. Presumably there is only freedom to obtain information, if they want you to have it. This stinks,

Can this be right? I'm now looking for my next angle of attack.

Edited by Titan500 on 03/08/2012 at 08:23

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Falkirk Bairn

You can go to the FOI Commissioner and ask them to investigate reason for non- declaration.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

You can go to the FOI Commissioner and ask them to investigate reason for non- declaration.

Thanks for that FB, I'll be giving that a try next.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - MavisCruet

Hiya - been reading this thread with interest and I whole heartedly agree that publicising the way you have all been treated by the Police may be the only way forward. Maybe with Social Media to spread the word etc?

Any way I am sorry I cannot be of more help - have you considered IPCC re the Police being totally non-helpful?

Re: Insurance - what about the clauses on your policy of 'Stolen vehicles not recovered' - as far as I know most will have a time limit for when a vehicle is not recovered - say 30 or 60 days it is classed as gone for good and they pay out - if not I guess you could take it up with the ombudsman... that said if it's a car you cherish I understand that you just want your damn car back :-/

I wonder how the guy who took his car back a couple of times got on??

I guess I just wanted you all to know that I support you and don't give up your fight.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Thanks for the kind words Mavis.

My car was not covered by my motor dealer insurance, as the cover was what is known as road risks only, and did not cover theft from the site.

Unfortunately, as far as I can make out, the IPCC deal with complaints about the conduct of the police, and not their policies. To be honest, there doesn't seem to be any way or any where to protest about their procedure, which is why I went to my MP.

I have asked for sight of the investigating officer's report, under the Freedom of Information Act, to see if he had passed comment on whether or not he believed a crime had been committed. But the Act obviously means sod all, as they refused my request, saying that information that may be used in criminal proceedings is exempt. Strange, when the whole arguement is the fact that they are saying the theft of my car is a civil matter......so how does that work then?

I have written back pointing out this anomoly, so we will see what they have to say about that. I'd bet my life they don't repent......so next will be the FOI commissioner, as suggested above.

I'll keep you posted.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Got the anticipated reply today.

Apparently, as it was possible that the enquiry may have resulted in criminal proceedings blah blah blah etc.

It remains a mystery to me, how you can report your car stolen, and the police don't recover it? They don't dispute I ever owned it, or that it was stolen from me, but they just wont take any action to recover the stolen goods, and insist it's a civil matter.

How long has car theft been a civil matter?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

As suggested a few posts back, I have sent my case to the Freedom of Information Commissioner's office, to see if they can get me sight of the police report.

To be totally honest, i am not sure where I am going with this approach, but I felt that getting every piece of information regarding the case could only help my argument.

The police have never disputed that the car belonged to me, or was stolen from me, so I wanted to see if the investigating officer had given an opinion on my alleged theft. I kind of thought, that if by chance he had stated that he believed the car had been stolen from me, then they had absolutely no reason not to react to a theft.

I made the application a week or two back, so should have a reply fairly soon.

I honestly doubt it will get me the report, as it seems that the authorities always have some clause that prevents you from getting what you want.........

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Avant

Many thanks for updating us - I'm only sorry that we don't have useful suggestions for you.

"How long has car theft been a civil matter?" (your last post but one)

The 'civil' aspect of car theft is the problem of who has legal title to the goods stolen. A owns a car; B steals it and sells it to C who buys in good faith. Title should still be A's but it isn't as easy as it sounds.

See my comment above on 17 August 2011 - I'm really sorry for you that this has dragged on for so long.

Edited by Avant on 26/08/2012 at 19:37

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - sydoggkdy

Hello everyone,

I see this thread is still ongoing. I have a nice little update...

After my last post almost a year ago and shortly after the Police made enquiries into the current registered keeper of the bike, my Father's motorcycle was for sale by a local garage on the autotrader.

I went down to the Police station and made an official complaint regarding the Police doing nothing about a stolen motorcycle and insisted I spoke to someone with a little more authority. I eventually spoke to someone more senior and over the space of a few hours convinced the Police that yes, the mororbike was stolen. So the officers brought the case forward to the procurator fiscal(Scotland) and he also confirmed the motorcycle was stolen.

However, this was to no avail as the first person who registered the bike i.e the person who stole it, is now deceased and so, the Police cannot pursue any criminal convictions. Meaning I would have to take the current registered keeper to civil court. The Police didn't care.

Fortunatly, the procurator fiscal helped me out a little bit by 'freezing' the bike so the current garage could not sell until our dispute was sorted.

So early this year my Father and I took the garage own to court and sued for our possesions to be delivered to us. The garage contested legal ownership so the case was posponed until September 2012. We presented all our evidence to the court and garage owner: V5, MOT, hand book, owners manual, etc, etc. And the Friday before our court hearing which was set for the Monday, the owner of the garage emailed me and said he gives up and I can come and bike up our motorcycle. Had the case gone to court I was 99.9% confident we would have won.

I went through picked the bike up and I am happy to say I am now the legal owner and legal registered keeper which my Father passed down to me, of a rather lovely, 1981 BMW R65.

Now, I am not here to gloat but to share my victory so if anyone has any questions that I could perhaps answe,r which might help any of you guys out. Please ask away. I don't know if any of you guys are in Scotland but if you are then possibly civil court is the way to go or shouting at the Police until someone takes you serious.

Bottom line is, certainly in Scotland: if someone sells property without good title then that property still belongs to the individual who has good title.

Let me know if I can help out.

Regards, Simon :)

Message wasn't at the bottom!

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Brilliant news Simon. Well done for sticking at it. It may well be that the garage owner was an innocent victim too.........I was a motor dealer for 20 years and similar things happened to me, however, innocent or not, as you rightly say, stolen goods stay stolen, and no subsequent keeper can EVER inherit good title. There is clear case law governing this scenario.

Unfortunately, the police have refused to yield to me, or my MP, and insist the theft is a civil issue. I have appealed to them, and their legal department, but they'll not budge.

In my latest battle, I have requested a copy of the investigating officer's report, I'm not really sure why, but I thought that if he has stated somewhere in it, that he considers a theft has taken place, then I would have some amunition against them. Needless to say, they refused me, on the grounds that, any report on a case that may result in a criminal prosecution can be witheld. Strange really.....as they have no intention of prosecuting anyone due to the issue being a civil one. It seems you can't win. As a reult, I have appealed to the Freedom of information Commissioner, and I am currently waiting for him to reply.

It may get me nowhere at all, it probably wont, but you never know....if that officer has said that he thinks my car was taken, then why have they not acted on a crime?

We shall see......I could go the civil court route, but to be honest, I was in court on an unrelated issue, (civil), 4 years ago, and the preciding judge ignored my testimony, that of an independant witness, he also ignored signatures on 4 documents, to find in favour of a person very financially motivated and who had not one single shred of evidence to support their argument. In short, I don't trust them to make the right decision, which is why I have tried so hard to involve the police.

Just out of interest, what did it cost you to take the court action?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Just a quick update for anyone following the progress. As stated above, I applied to the Commissioner for sight of the police report, and that application is still ongoing. I haven't been refused yet, which is encouraging, but I'm not holding my breath. They have written to me twice to confirm they are still working on it, and i will post up the result here as soon as I have one.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - want my lilly back

Hi everybody. want to know where i may stand on this. About 10 or 11 years ago my nan passed away, I had been using her driveway to store my mk1 escort that i had been restoring. a few days before her funeral i moved the car temporarily to some parking bays across the road from her house so the hea*** etc could gain acess,. amyway within those few days my car had gone, dispite signs i wrote saying it wasnt dumped! I presumed at the time the council might have taken it.. With all the stresses at the time i just didnt care and wouldnt have had the money to get it released from them anyway. as years have passes ive missed that car. It was an 18th birthday present, from my auntie. it was her car she got when she first passed her test and had been in my family over 20 odd years. anyway today curiously i looked on dvla and it appears the car is on the road :O I presumed it would have been scrapped by the council. Have i still got right to ownership?? Im starting to think it may have been stolen. what should i do. please help

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - tony g
You should write to the dvla asking for details of the current registered owner .

You need to provide details why you need the information ,such as you've given in your post .
You can also check the mib database ,that will tell you if the car is currently insured and being used ,but won't tell you who the keeper is .
Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - want my lilly back

ok cheers. the date of liability is2013 so im presuming its on the road. I will get in touch with the dvla as soon as. what would my chances of gtting the car back though?

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Hi WMLB.

I think you will find yourself in the same boat as me. Possibly in an even more difficult position, as you have never reported your car as missing or stolen at all.

By law, the car still belongs to you. As we have said throughout this thread, the law is clear on this point, and has been proven in Parliament. Nobody can ever inherit good title to a stolen vehicle. This is the issue of this entire thread basically.....we all know the law, the police know the law, but refuse to enforce it. We are trying to find a way to make them do their job, but as yet have failed.

I doubt writing to the DVLA will give you any more information than you already have. I feel sure that data protection will prevent the release of current keeper details. I would suggest you report the loss to the police, but would not be surprised if they attempted to send you packing right away....you may have to dig your heels in and demand they do something.

Just out of interest, do you still have any documentation for the car?

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - skidpan

If you have made no attempt to recover the car for 10 or 11 years you will have no chance. The car has probably had several owners and since it was never reported stolen they it would have not come up on a HPI check.

Forget it and move on. It cannot have been that important.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - want my lilly back

yeah i do have the complete logbook and the keys!! also have lots of photos etc

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Skidpan puts it a little harshly, but I fear he is probably correct. I feel sure the police will ask some difficult questions of you, were you to report the car stolen so far down the line, but what do you have to lose? Nothing !

I read a case some months ago, where an Austin Healey was returned to the rightful owner 36 years after being stolen.....sadly it was in the USA, who clearly view things differently to us. As I said before, a stolen car stays stolen, and I don't imagine there is a time limit on reporting it so, after all, what if you were abroad for 10 years and returned to find the car stolen from storage?

Report it.......see what happens.

Keep us posted.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - want my lilly back

like i said i thougt it had een taken and destroyed by the council. does it matter which police force i report it too? as i live in manchester now and this all happenned in london

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

I would approach the police nearest to where you live....the enquiry, if there is one, will get passed to the correct area.

Good luck with it.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - Titan500

Some progress....

After the police refused me sight of the investigating officer's report re the theft of my car, I appealed to the Freedom of Information Commissioner. The Commissioner has responded, by saying he considers they cannot refuse me sight of the report in accordance with the act, and they have been instructed to release the information to me.

Hoorah.

I'll believe it when I see it though !

I'm just hoping that the officer has stated in the report that he considers a theft has taken place, and I can then re-question how they think the matter is a civil one.

Fingers crossed.

Austin Mini Mayfair - When is a stolen car not a stolen car? - nortones2

Pity the police in the OP's area don't swap personnel with Scotland. This is a report of the return of a stolen violin: www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article378...e

Anything of note by the way?

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