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you are correct. the last few days my Freelander 2 has had a delay after pressing the start button of 6-8 sec's then turns over & fires on the button.
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You may have a plug down or even two if it starts lumpy usually this is the problem.
It seems when you unlock these cars the glow plugs get there heat so as you push to start it does probably good compression too not all diesels have plugs.
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My Yaris starts at once .. whatever weather..-8C yesterday.
I suspect the electronics switch them on when I open the driver's door, whether the key is in the ignition or not.
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Latest from the Landrover garage is that my vehicle needs a software update to enable the glowplugs to function properly. They will hold it overnight and try starting it in the morning with the new software loaded. Will let you know what the outcome is....
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My Verso tends to fire up almost instantaneously, even in the current cold conditions. An old Renault 19 diesel of mine took a little while for the preheat light to go out.
Hired a Transit about 10 years ago. Fired up instantaneously every time.
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Some agricultural tractors of yore had a manual control for the glowplugs.
Mount up, hold the little lever against its spring detent, count to 10 slowly, release, press the starter button (or pull the starter lever) and off she went.
Edited by ifithelps on 22/12/2009 at 19:01
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Some agricultural tractors of yore had a manual control for the glowplugs.
Some if not most Diesel vans were like this (seem to remember an early MB diesel car i drove being similar) i recall the Perkins 4108 engined Transits having a push button glow warm button on the dash.
Often neeeded 'easystart' on days like this though.
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Our New Holland has a cold start button, but I've never used it and don't think it's for glow plugs. Starts instantly anyway.
Our old Zetor, on the other hand, needed a mechanical device on the fuel pump pushing in for a cold start regardless of the OAT. No idea what it actually did to the pump.
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Dougie-mac - I have an X type 2.2d with the same engine as the Freelander. Yesterday the car only moved a few yards to allow me to get my wife's car out, it was then parked on street all day and I moved it back in the evening and it spluttered when it started, but was OK once running.
This morning I went to start it. It turned over, started, but was very lumpy - it seemed like not even three cylinders. Then the glowpug light flashed. Manual is useless as to what this means.
Left it for a few minutes and tried again. Same result. Left it again and tried, it spluttered and as soon as it stalled I turned it off. After three goes of this it started and has been fine all day.
Tomorrow I'll cycle the ignition a few times to let the glow plugs warm up a few times then I'll try to start it.
It was -7 this morning so I'm putting it down to a problem with the diesel in very cold weather, but I never had problems with PD Audis.
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The X-type and Freelanders don't share 2.2 d engines. In the Jag its an enlarged version of the old mondeo engine. In the L/R its a joint design with PSA. Completely different beasts.
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"Yesterday the car only moved a few yards to allow me to get my wife's car out; it was then parked on street all day and I moved it back in the evening and it spluttered when it started, but was OK once running."
Maybe diesels don't like this, as some petrol engines don't. If you drove it some distance today, it may well be fine tomorrow.
PU may be able to help you with the 'glowpug light' (sic, above)!!
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Latest this morning is that it's not the software but its the glowplugs.... none in the garage so it won't be until the 30th before they will hopefully receive them! If not it's going to be the 5th! Grrrrrrrrrr Not impressed and this from a Landrover dealership!
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Latest this morning is that it's not the software but its the glowplugs.... none in the garage
I hope they've tested them properly and not into the 'throw parts at it' phase.
I wouldn't have thought a Free2 to be anywhere near old enough for glow worms to be failing.
I personally dislike the push button stop start systems, you haven't got the foggiest idea whats going on as you have no control over the starting procedure at all.
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Thats poor service they can get them from another dealer or parts department overnight, or fit non genuine just to get you running and replace them later.
v poor service.
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Most cars produced after...(let's say 2000) don't need glow plugs in UK weather. They will still come on to reduce the cranking time by a turn and lower noise and emissions and stay on for a minute or three after the engine has started, but the days of needing to wait for them are gone due to direct injection and better atomisation. 99% of trucks have never had them, as they have always been direct injection (as opposed to prechamber). Also, the glowplug lights are no longer on the same circuit as the glowplugs themselves and haven't been for years, the light is just a signal from the ECU to ask you to wait, the glowplugs stay on after the light has gone out.
Edited by Hamsafar on 24/12/2009 at 14:10
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The software update now delays the start of the cracking of the engine whilst the glow plugs are allegedly doing their job but the beast still doesn't start....
If as s few people have stated modern diesels don't need glow plugs because the pressures are now so high, could this mean that my engine is losing compression in some way?
Well it won't start this morning so I have called the Land rover helpline. Apparently these are specific land rover technicians so it will be interesting to see what they diagnose when they arrive...
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Glowplugs are not really doing much on these engines unless the temperature is really cold (like Canadian cold or Norway cold). They are not really needed in UK climate. So glowplug is a red herring.
I think you are more likely to have a fuel system problem than a compression problem.
Is the battery good and spinning it over quick enough?
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Well the Land Rover technician couldn't make it so they sent The AA. Mr AA was surprised as the engine was turning over fast enough but it was only firing once or twice in a given starting cycle (I have to say at this stage the outside temperature up here in Scotland was fluctuating between -5 and -7 today). By this time and because of me trying to start the car earlier in the day the battery was starting to lose a little bit of oomph so we connected up his booster kit. After 3 more attempts it finally caught and started. After it has started once, it will start every time there after unless left overnight in the cold.
MR AA thought that the glow plugs were not too blame as they are used now a days to help with emissions and smoke prevention rather than for cold weather. He thought that perhaps it was a fuel problem but could understand why it didn't happen even if it was left overnight when it wasn't cold.
He said I?d need to take it to my Land Rover garage and get them to do some more diagnostics.... we then went through the usual gathering of vehicle details before he leaves and I told him it had done 120K and he immediately changed his tact and said hmmmmm could be a compression issue and when the engine cold the metal contracts slightly, just enough , if it is well worn that you don't get enough compression but once it has ran it is hotter and has expanded and the compression issue disappears. This would account for it being fine in normal conditions and not starting in cold conditions.
So as you can see I've now got 3 theories:
1. Glow plugs - Land Rover garage
2. Fuel starvation - This forum and The AA
3. Compression - Mr AA
Those in the know please cast your votes and if possible a reason why.
Any help would be very much appreciated before I go back into battle with the Land Rover dealership tomorrow.
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I'm no expert so discard all i say as rubbish which most here do..;)
If the glow plugs don't assist starting, does that mean as in some trucks i've had (instant starters unlike the latest junk) that the pump has an automatic enriching device, which may be on the blink?
Probably not the pump any more, too simple, but a signal (missing for some reason?) from the 'puter to send extra fuel through until started.
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I dont think its the glowplugs. It COULD be compression IF the engine is worn. but it shouldnt be that worn with 120k on it. Bore wear and loss of compression would be rare at that mileage. We service a few diesel taxis, passat, octavia, sharan, and they are all over 300k on original engine, one has done nearly 500k. Get the dealer to do a comprssion test using appropriate equipment (not one that records peak pressure, but one that produces a trace of pressure with time). I still think its most likley a fuelling problem, but not necessarikly the pump. These things can be hard to nail though.
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Mercedes C class have a simple problen with there cdi range that is O rings on the fuel lines perish and air gets into the system causing no start after several attempts to start they do.
As said at that mileage she is just run in 120k look at simple things first like air in the fuel if the dealers can't fix this simple freelander run a mile and go to a good indie.!!
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>>not one that records peak pressure, but one that produces a trace of pressure with time
What does measuring pressure over time tell you that peak pressure doesn't?
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Firstly thank you very much to everyone who has had an input to my dilemma, having the ability to turn to someone other than the dealer is fantastic.
Well I informed the Land Rover dealership of the fact that the car had failed to start again yesterday and I felt it was more likely to be a fuel problem or as an outside chance a compression problem and the service managers response was "Your wrong sir, as is The AA, it?s the glow plugs and I'll try and find out when we can get them for you but probably not before the 6th Jan".
So here I am back at square 1 with a car that is fantastic in the snowy & icy conditions we are experiencing at the moment but is unable to leave its own driveway unless I call out the Land Rover assistance every day.
Should I phone another Land Rover dealership (not as close but still within driving distance) and speak to them with a view to switching dealerships or should I stick with this one and let them have another go with replacing the glow plugs?
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I get to start a lot of LR Diesels cold in my job, in very cold weather there is an extended delay between pressing the start stop button and the engine turning over...if this isn't glow plug pre heat time what is it?
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On our Golf PD, the cut off point for OAT before any change in glowplug lamp behaviour seems to be about -2 degrees C (on a cold start). The light comes on briefly with the ignition and goes pretty much straight out again almost every time, except for when the temperature drops below this. In the recent cold weather we've had (-4C or so overnight), the light stays on for about 5 seconds. Once the light goes out, it starts first touch of the key, as per normal. This is a big improvement on my old indirect injected Mondeo which would need 10 seconds + if there was even a hint of frost.
I haven't attempted to start it before the light goes out because this is bad for the injectors, but it has been behaving differently to normal on these very cold nights of late.
Cheers
DP
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Car Mechanics did an article in great detail about the TD4. There are LOTS of issues.
Most likely:
Excessive injector leak off;;; lots of cranking required.
Wiring chafes.
Harness failure etc. there is a modified harness and pressure sensor kit
It is 4 pages long.!!!
I can scan and send you a copy.
Contact me via the mods if you want it.
Edited by madf on 29/12/2009 at 13:27
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Most likely: Excessive injector leak off;;; lots of cranking required. Wiring chafes. Harness failure etc. there is a modified harness and pressure sensor kit
These are the kind of things I would be thinking of. But impossible to make asuggestion without seeing the car and having access to correct diagnostics.
Even doen to -10 I would expect engine to fire up after a few turns even without glowplugs. At these warmer temps glowplugs are mainly to reduce cold start emissions. They are vital in IDI engines, but a bit of a luxury on DI engines in UK climate.
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Is this the TD4 engine though ???
Thought it was the PSA unit.
By the way - The CRV's engine has the glowplug light comes on for around a second since the onset of the cold weather and has not failed to start instantly from very, very cold this winter.
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The Qashqai seems to need its glowplugs. It simply will not catch without excessive cranking in any weather unless you wait for the wee light to go out when it conversely starts instantly. This is quite different to the Mondeo which must have glowplugs but is rufty tufty and hairy chested enough to start on the first click of the key without any shilly shallying in any temperature. It is a shame in a way that I have decided to adhere to a no smoking rule in the Nissan as the little delay would have been the ideal time to spark one up..... Heh heh....
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From my very little knowledge this is the same 160bhp 2.2 diesel engine that is used in the Peugeot Crossover. Is this a PSA engine? My Freelander 2 has a TD4 badge on the back so is the PSA and TD4 engine the same?
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The earliest diesel Freelanders were powered (I think) by the Rover L Series lump and had no badging to denote the engine. Latterly, they were powered by the BMW 2.0 engine and were badged Td4.
The Freelander 2 is also badged Td4, but is powered by the 2.2 PSA/Ford unit. Not sure which engine the earlier poster was referring to when he mentioned injector leak off etc.
In the colder weather we have now been experiencing, our 2.2 Freelander 2 has now been introducing a delay of a couple of seconds before it cranks, and the glowplug light does come on. Seems a bit random though. Sometimes at -2, it does preheat, other times it doesn't, in spite of being left overnight in the same conditions... Either way, it starts fine, so there's nothing to worry about.
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The 2.2 160hp TD4 engine in the Freelander 2 is the same as that found in the Peugeot 4007 and Citroen C-Crosser.
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I've had my Landrover Freelander for 6 years and it has been brilliant in all conditions, however I moved to Sweden 7 months ago and in the last month temperatures are on average -18. My Freelander rarely starts in the morning and I have to bring the battery indoors for warming up session next to a warm radiator for a few hours. When I refit the battery, it will start almost immediately (with the smell of diesel and a lot of white exhaust smoke). If I turn it off it will start again without any problem.
I have been advised to buy a Scandanavian winter battery that is able to handle the cold better than our UK batteries, my battery was fitted new before I came to Sweden.
Have you considered buying a heavy duty battery - does anybody think this will make any difference?
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Well I eventually had to call out the Landrover recovery people again and this time it was a Landrover technician.
He said the smoke which was beeing produced when the engine was turning over proved that it wasn't a fuel problem and the fact that it tried to fire up proved that the compression was ok. So he said it must be the glow plugs as the car was delaying its start expecting the glowplugs to do their job then trying to turn over albeit the car wasn't able to start.
Well my Freelander 2 is now fix.... and the trouble was................. the glow plugs! Landrover garage was right. The car now waits a number of seconds before trying to turn over but when it does it starts first crank.
So the answer in my mind as to whether modern diesels/ the 2.2 PSA diesel engine need glowplugs to start in temperatures -2 and below is YES.
Thanks to all that have replied hope this helps other people with Freelander2's which don't like starting in these cold weather conditions.
Edited by Dougie_Mac on 09/01/2010 at 12:28
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well done Dougie_mac. We had -14 the other morning but the freelander fired up instantly following the starter delay whilst the plugs heat. Glad to hear yours is sorted.
I must admit with winter tyres & snow mode & HDC it certainly goes everywhere I want. managed to scramble over a heap left by a snow plough great fun. Good job it has short overhang!
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