Remind me again, how big was McLaren's fine for their dirty deeds? Can we expect equality of treatment for Renault? I personally would put endangering other peoples's lives as slightly more objectionable.
BIG
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this tactic (crashing to slow, end or disrupt a race) has happened at most levels of team motor sport
Are you suggesting it might be brought into the rules AE?
Extra points could be awarded for stylish, convincing efforts like that spinning-through-the-air thing Webber did in Canada or (to give the devil his due) Nelson Piquet's convincing if dull effort in Singapore.
Penalties could be awarded for clumsy attempts though, like Schumacher's dispiriting effort in qualifying at Monaco a few years ago. Mean and feeble, drop ten more places on the grid.
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And with Mercedes supplying engines to eight or more cars next year there could be a category for Synchronized Crashing.
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As a result of Piquet crashing and Alonso winning, the following few things happened which may not have otherwise:
1. Massa lost 10 points
2. Hamilton gained 6 points
3. Hamilton won the world championship by a tiny margin.
4. Ferrari and Massa lost out some dosh and trophies.
5. McLaren and Hamilton got a lot of extra dosh.
6. Alonso got a winner's trophy plus some dosh.
7. Punters who bet on Massa winning at Singapore lost out.
8. Punters who bet on Massa winning world title lost out.
9. Punters who bet on Alonso winning at Singapore got some dosh.
10. Punters who bet on Hamilton winning world title got some dosh.
etc. etc.
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jbif, if the accusations become fact then yes this affected last year's championship big time! But can they strip Alonso of the win for the previous season? And it was not just him winning that affected things - the crash itself did influence things.
Oh dear. Can of worms the FIA will probably keep the lid on I hope.
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Unless posted earlier, the situation is that Renault are not going to contest the allegations about the crash and Briatori + A N Other senior person have resigned. Make of that what you will. What with footballers diving better than Tom Daley and rugger players doing Dracula impersonations what else can go wrong?
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 16/09/2009 at 18:07
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Unless posted earlier, the situation is that Renault .... >>
Yes, BBC link was posted in volume 35. Here is the Renault link, see today's press statement:
www.ing-renaultf1.com/en/_2009/team/home_team/
"16/09/2009
ING Renault F1 Team Statement ? 16 September 2009
The ING Renault F1 Team will not dispute the recent allegations made by the FIA concerning the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.
It also wishes to state that its managing director, Flavio Briatore and its executive director of engineering, Pat Symonds, have left the team. .... "
Note, therefore, in Renault's own words, they will not dispute the allegations.
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>1 Massa lost 10 points
why? piquet didnt jam the fuel hose in Massas car and drive down the piut lane with it
everything you noted is speculation and unfounded
Let us look at the result of the race
1 Fernando Alonso Renault 10 points
2 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 8 points
3 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 6 points
4 Timo Glock Toyota 5 points
5 Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari 4 points
6 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 3 points
7 David Coulthard Red Bull-Renault 2 points
8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1 point
9 Jenson Button Honda 0 points
Corrected result
1 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 10 points
2 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 8 points
3 Timo Glock Toyota 6 points
4 Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari 5 points
5 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 4 points
6 David Coulthard Red Bull-Renault 3 points
7 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 2 points
8 Jenson Button Honda 1 point
1. Massa still ost 10 points
2. Hamilton gained 8 points
3. Hamilton won the world championship by a bigger margin.
4. Ferrari and Massa still lost out some dosh and trophies.
5. McLaren and Hamilton got a lot more extra dosh.
6. Alonso looses winner's trophy plus some dosh.
7. Punters who bet on Massa winning at Singapore still lost out.
8. Punters who bet on Massa winning world title still lost out.
9. Punters who bet on Alonso winning at Singapore got some dosh.
10. Punters who bet on Hamilton winning world title still got some dosh.
Only 9 changes.
Edited by Altea Ego on 16/09/2009 at 18:19
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everything you noted is speculation and unfounded >> Only 9 changes. >>
Your opinion. Try telling Ferrari and Massa that. Just two small details you have overlooked amongst many.
1. Massa's pit lane incident was due to him reacting hastily to recover his position following Piquet's crash and safety car delays.
2. Rosberg came in while the pit lane was closed, gained an advantage, for which he was given a belated penalty, by which time he had gained enough time to finish 2nd overall.
A Ego, you are entitled to your opinion/speculation. I shall stick with mine.
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Bump (there is a reason)
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(there is a reason)
Yeeeees....? (as my analyst used to say)
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Yeeeeeessss indeed as my therapist said.
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Did you execute that bump manouvre following some team orders? :-)
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Right it was bumped because a posting from earlier in the day had been moved and was er....lingering elsewhere - it was put back by me and because it had a 10.00am time stamp it went over onto the previous page so I bumped it to make it more visible so you happy people could discuss F1 - happy now ???
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And it was only a bump. We didn't have a crash as mods. We would not get the insurance.
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I presume that Renault will be kicked out and BMW will take their place as next season BMW are the 1st reserve so to speak. They have lost their place on the grid for 2010.
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Simon Barnes says in today's Times:
"..... This is no run-of-the-mill piece of skulduggery. The Renault team?s crime was not an act of cheating as mere fraudulence. Rather, it was cheating as a potentially lethal act; as potential murder, if you like. This is not melodramatic. Deaths in motor racing still happen. They are not a relic of the wizard-prang days. Deaths come from crashes, and no crash can be controlled. .... "
and from today's Telegraph:
"Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds could potentially be extradited to Singapore to face criminal charges in the wake of their departure from Renault on Wednesday in connection with race-fixing claims. ... "....
"... Ferrari's and Massa's case against Renault could prove more substantial. The Brazilian, who had been leading in Singapore until Piquet's crash, finished 13th in the race and ended up losing the championship to Lewis Hamilton by a single point. Both he and the team's loss of earnings would be significant.
Stephen Hornsby, a specialist sports lawyer for Davenport Lyons, believes they could potentially have a stronger case than Sheffield United, who won £30 millon in damages from West Ham over the Carlos Tévez affair earlier this year after being relegated from the Premier League in 2007.
"There is a clear causal link between the alleged cheating and the financial loss to Massa and his team," Hornsby said. "As for Renault suing Briatore that is possible too. But Renault are unlikely to want to keep the matter going for little reward." "
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There's been more politics in F1 since Mosely and Ecclestone took charge than decent racing... how about we get rid of the lot and start again?!
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Ed Gorman of the Times has unearthed this by " the veteran Joe Saward who dealt with potentially explosive and legally sensitive material cleverly in his race report." Here is that report from last year:
grandprix.com/gpe/rr800.html
Singapore September 28, 2008
" .... There were some cynics (there always are) who reckoned that the team's strategy was to have Nelson crash soon after Fernando had completed his stop and thus create a situation in which Fernando gained an advantage over the rest of the field. One can see this argument, but one likes to believe that no team would ever be so desperate as to have a driver throw his car at a wall. In all probability Piquet just screwed up - he has done that a lot this year. If not, he must have been offered something worth having because he needs to impress in the few remaining races as this has been a very poor season.
It will be interesting to see whether he gets a new contract for 2009. ... "
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From news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/82...m
Renault chief Patrick Pelata has blamed departed team bosses Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds for the Formula 1 race-fixing controversy.
Briatore and Symonds resigned after Renault chose not to contest charges of fixing the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. "Flavio Briatore considered he was morally responsible and resigned," Pelata told French radio station RTL.
"We don't want a fault by two people to reflect upon the whole company and the entire Formula 1 team."
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"There is a clear causal link between the alleged cheating and the financial loss to Massa and his team," Hornsby said.
There is not the slightest link between poor ferrari pit work and the crash, I could prove, from past experience bot last year and this, that ferrari pit work has always been suspect.
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Well said, AE, in fact all that would happen if they were taken out of that race is that Hamilton would have won the championship by 3 points instead of 1, Massa was out due to a bad pit stop, not Renault's cheating.
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Massa was out due to a bad pit stop, not Renault's cheating. >>
Massa's hurried forced pit stop was as direct result of Renault's cheating, with Ferrari having been forced to change strategy and forced in to calling in both their drivers in to the pits together as soon as the pit lane reopened. This is how the events were reported on the day:
"On lap 10 of 61, the order was Massa, Hamilton, Raikkonen, now upping his pace and closing on second place, Kubica, Vettel, Glock, Kovalainen, Heidfeld, Rosberg, Nakajima completing the top ten, followed by Alonso, up from fifteenth, Trulli, Webber, Button, Coulthard, Bourdais, Barrichello, Piquet, Sutil and Fisichella last. Kimi had picked up the pace and was now 3.2 behind Hamilton, while Felipe's lead over the McLaren man was 3.4 seconds. Lap 12 saw Alonso the first man to pit, which would be a key to the final outcome and then on lap 15, Piquet crashed his Renault heavily into the wall bringing out the Safety Car. Barrichello had pitted along with Rosberg at this time but the Honda driver then stopped for no apparent reason out on track. Kubica, Webber and Coulthard also stopped, all before the pit lane was officially open. When the pit lane opened Massa and Raikkonen came in together for a double stop, but it went wrong as the Brazilian was released by the team while the fuel line was still attached to his car and he had to stop at the end of pit lane. Raikkonen came in right behind him and had a normal stop, but obviously lost time having to wait his turn. After what seemed like an eternity, the mechanics finally managed to remove the fuel line from Felipe's car and he continued out on track, not losing a lap but running at the back. The order on lap 18, still behind the SC was now Rosberg, Trulli, Fisichella, Kubica, Alonso, Webber, Bourdais, Coulthard, Hamilton and Vettel completing the top ten. Kimi and Felipe were 17th and 18th.
On lap 19, the SC came in and the race was on again. However, there was much confusion as Race Control was expected to impose penalties on those drivers who stopped before the pit lane had been officially opened. Massa would also be penalised with a drive-through for "dangerous release from pit lane."
On lap 27, Kubica came in for a 10 second stop go penalty. One lap later it was Rosberg's turn to do the same thing, dropping him from the lead to fourth, promoting Trulli to leader ahead of Fisichella, followed by Alonso, Coulthard and Hamilton. Fisichella finally refuelled on lap 29. Mark Webber retired in the garage on this lap. Kimi and Felipe were twelfth and fifteenth at this point. So at the halfway point in this extraordinary race, the order was Trulli, Alonso, Rosberg, Coulthard, Hamilton, Glock, Vettel, Heidfeld, Nakajima, Button, Kovalainen, Raikkonen, Sutil, Bourdais, Kubica, Fisichella and Massa seventeenth and last."
Edited by jbif on 19/09/2009 at 12:48
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Having been to the JBIF school of selectively quoting things out of context to illustrate an otherwise completely unrelated series of actions i say
"it went wrong as the Brazilian was released by the team while the fuel line was still attached to his car and he had to stop at the end of pit lane. After what seemed like an eternity, the mechanics finally managed to remove the fuel line from Felipe's car and he continued out on track, not losing a lap but running at the back"
Not losing a lap?
So If the safety car was not out, and the Ferrari mechanics screwed up (as they had shown a habit of doing during that period of the GP season ) then he would have lost a lap.
Poor Ferrari pit work was the cause of his position. Nothing else. None of the other teams screwed up the pit stop like that and they were all in the same boat.
Edited by Altea Ego on 19/09/2009 at 13:07
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Having been to the JBIF school of selectively quoting things out of context .. >>
Nothing selective about it. Tells you what happened in the race between laps 10 and 27, and explains how the race positions changed all as a consequence of Renault's cheating, starting with Alonso being called in to refuel at lap12.
None of the other teams screwed up the pit stop like that and they were all in the same boat. >>
Which boat was that? Either you have a selective memory or your boat is a very wide one with all the other cars lying side by side with Massa's when Piquet crashed.
The boat I saw was the one which was many times longer than a supertanker and narrower than a canoe, in which Massa was at the front and had a very comfortable lead, which was increasing lap by lap. It would have allowed even the most inept Ferrari mechanics to bring him in for his normal scheduled stop, all in a very calm considered way without having to worry about where he slotted in behind a Renault stage-managed safety car, without having Raikonnen queuing behind him for a double stop, without having to worry about lax race officials who took an inordinate amount of time to give Rosberg and Kubica their penalties.
Edited by jbif on 19/09/2009 at 14:58
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Answer the question.
Who else screwed up the pit stop that badly that day?
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Does it really matter ?
Look at the big picture, it,s a circus in which lots of people get very rich for providing "entertainment" to the masses and mostly to the TV masses.
As some of you may recall, a mate and I went down to Monza on our bikes last week. After a vey joyful ride down the route napoleon, we headed up to Monza to watch qualifying and the race on Sunday.
We both came to the conclusion that being a punter with a lowly "general admission" ticket was a waste of time. Far better to watch on the television for sure, but back to the original point.
It,s a show, don;t take it too seriously .
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Does it really matter ? >>
Ask FIA, Bernie, Renault, Flavio, Symmonds, Alonso, Ferrari, Massa, Hamilton, McLaren, and the betting companies and their punters who bet on the race. Then ask the Singapore Government how they view such "entertainment" and "show" on their flagship F1 debut. Depending on how Monday's hearing in Paris pans out, Singaporean state lawyers will decide on whether to take the matter further in their own courts.
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Answer the question. >>
I suggest you view the whole race again, then answer the questions:
Who was leading prior the safety car?
Was he being caught or was he extending his lead?
Which team planned and caused the crash?
Why did Ferrari have to do an unplanned double stop?
QED. Like it or not, Massa's race was ruined by the safety car period caused by Piquet's crash. No crash, no safety car, and Massa would not have had to contend with flustered inept mechanics trying to cope with a double stop and trying to get him out before an impatient queuing Raikonnen, and would have won the race with a huge margin.
You may wish ignore what went on before Massa and Raikonned were forced to double stop, but I like to take a broader unblinkered view. I guess you will believe what you want to, and likewise me.
p.s. In case you think I am a Ferrari fan, if you check previous F1&M threads here, you will find that I am a Lewis/McLaren fan through and through.
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QED. Like it or not, Massa's race was ruined by the safety car period
Not
His race was ruined by his own teams poor pit work. Again I ask you, who else in that race had such an appalling pit stop? Everyone was in the same race they were all affected equally
Except Alonso of course.
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BBC reporting
Renault have been given a two-year suspended ban for their role in fixing last year's Singapore Grand Prix.
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So the two employees have been given bans, but the company gets away scot-free (virtually).
A suspended ban means, that as long as they don't do anything else naughty, there has been no effective punishment.
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Is there to be no 100 million euro fine? MacLaren got one for something much less wicked.
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here, hold out this dainty french wrist, _ SLAP _ now don't be naughty again.
When I look at how the FIA tried to screw McClaren to the wall, and I see how they deal with the other teams, no-one will convince me the FIA are not corrupt.
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Well, I wasn't going to buy a Renault.
Now, I definitely, definitely won't.
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hey, he wrote off that renault against the wall and walked out unharmed. How do you expect they research 5* NCAP safety? Its a great advert.
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So all Renault road cars now have a carbon fibre tub monocoque then ;-) Must be quite big to fit in five passengers.
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Who needs a new manager? Quite a few in the sport.
"Briatore has management contracts with Alonso as well as Red Bull's Mark Webber, Renault's Romain Grosjean, McLaren's Heikki Kovalainen and Piquet. But the FIA said yesterday that it would not renew the annual Superlicence of any driver that remained with him. His close involvement in GP2 will also come to an end, with Renault having to find someone new to run the Formula One breeding ground as well as appointing a new team principal, while he is even banned from any track holding an FIA-affiliated event.
Will there be a lot of spare staff soon and teams looking for engines ?
"Renault F1's president, Bernard Rey, was asked five times about the team's future but refused to answer."
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Kevin Garside, that master of foaming sportswriterese, thinks Renault has been let off too lightly and seems to suggest that we should all turn our backs on F1 in disgust.
Of course if we were going to do that we would have done it already.
Flavio Briatore is slightly too scowling and menacing to be a real man. I think he should be subjected to a gender test.
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Its one thing copying someone elses schoolwork, but I think my teachers at school would have been somewhat harsher if id started purposely falling over infront of people on sportsday so my classmates could win.
Im at a loss to understand why there was no fine from atleast a moral standpoint. If the FIA wanted to reinforce the impression that they persecute McLaren, they are certainly working hard at it. Had Mclaren done the same thing...
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I may be wrong here but werent McLaren on a suspended ban when they tried to cheat in Australia and Malaysia earlier this year?
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werent McLaren on a suspended ban when they tried to cheat in Australia and Malaysia earlier this year? >>
IIRC, McLaren were given a suspended ban for the LewisLiarGate affair, in return for Lewis & Whitmarsh making a grovelling apology, and Ron D plus another removing themselves from the racing team.
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"Briatore ban too harsh - F1 boss" - news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/82...m
The F1 boss in question being, of course, Bernie Ecclestone, who was one of those who sat on the committee which decided the ban.
Unfortunately Renault lost their major sponsors today news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/82...m
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...and now having spent the last half hour reading the FIA dossier I tend to agree with Bernie. I don't much like Flavio but I don't think the case against him was very strong. fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr...f
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Re above exchange, I tend to agree with jbif.
Now what would happen if the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix results are voided?
It does seem that Briatore's treatment is harsh and that Symonds was more involved in the cheating, on the otherhand Briatore as team principal could have said "Pat and Nelson, that would be cheating, no way are we doing that and by the way you are both fired" .....
..... but he didnt.
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I don't much like Flavio but I don't think the case against him was very strong. >>
Buried in the FIA dossier should be this gem:
www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/8719299
" ... In documents published on the FIA website (www.fia.com), the world body said a fourth team member had also known about a plot for Brazilian Nelson Piquet Jr to crash deliberately at the race to help Spanish team mate Fernando Alonso win.
The conspiracy had been thought to be limited to Piquet, Briatore and Symonds with the FIA declaring on Monday that double world champion Alonso had not been in the know.
However the FIA said a "whistleblower", revealed by Renault shortly before the FIA's world motor sport council met and identified only to FIA president Max Mosley and certain legal advisers, had also been aware of the plan and had opposed it.
The FIA said Witness X had been "personally present at a meeting shortly after qualifying on Saturday 27 September 2008 when Mr Symonds had mentioned the possibility of a crash plan to Mr Briatore. ..."
also see tinyurl.com/yc7fa3g [ links to www.telegraph.co.uk/ ]
" ... the FIA was not made aware of the whistleblower until just five days ago, when Renault provided additional documents.
In its judgment, the FIA noted: ?Renault F1 stated in its submissions of 17 September 2009 that Witness X had confirmed that Mr Briatore had known of the deliberate crash plan before it had been put into effect.?
Following the revelation, and after being granted the right of anonymity to protect his identity - only FIA president Max Mosley and the body?s legal advisors are aware of his real name - Witness X was then interviewed by a member of the FIA?s external counsel.
Determining his evidence was factual, Renault made a third and final set of written submissions on Saturday which was the final nail in Briatore?s coffin.
In their statement, they wrote: ?Renault F1 has concluded that the following had knowledge of the conspiracy to cause a safety car: Nelson Piquet Jnr, Pat Symonds, Flavio Briatore and Witness X. ... "
So it seems that out the four people at Renault F1, three admitted their part but one did not and got the harshest sentence.
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Excuse the ignorance here, I am genuinely interested in this story but have got lost somewhere in all the screeds of reports.
I believe the "jist" is Nelson Piquet deliberately crashed to help his team mate. Was there an instruction over the radio to do this, surely not as these are all recorded? So how did he know when was the ideal time to do it?
On one hand, I hope Piquet never races again if he is prepared to crash into a brick wall to cheat! However, he may not have had much choice in the matter, contract negotiations etc etc.
I suppose this is very like the ongoing debate in football just now about cheating and diving and where do you draw the line!
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Seems that Renault are losing their main sponsor ING, who provide half the teams' money.
www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78831
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ING had already announced they were pulling out at the end of the season anyway, so this isn't as big a blow as it might have been.
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Booby
The time was pre chosen - Lap 14. The place was pre chosen, where there was no chance of getting the car out easily, Alonso came in on lap 12 and topped up his tanks so did not have to pit on lap 15 during the safety car lap when every other driver did. Hence he ended up in front.
All pre planned, which makes it much worse.
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Booby >>
;-) I think it may be time for him to change his name:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=76...9
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Well in that case the lot should have been banished for life, manufacturer, drivers and key personnel.
Blatant cheating and loss of integrity.
Or is it a case of people in glass houses shouldn't throw too many stones.........
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... Was there an instruction over the radio to do this, surely not as these are all recorded? So how did he know when was the ideal time to do it? ... >>
The gist of it is that it was all preplanned, the lap, the corner, etc.
Piquet apparently kept asking what lap he was on.
Then on the critical lap, the instructions he got were:
Symonds: Okay right [Engineer], you’ve gotta push him really damn hard now
Flavio: Tell him, push.
Symonds: Tell him to push really hard.
Edited by Webmaster on 27/09/2009 at 01:43
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Watching the practice this morning, the commentators all seemed to know who the whistleblower is, but are keeping quiet about it.
There is also some astonishment that Alonso is still saying he deserved the win last year.
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Rumour
Dave Richards (of pro-drive fame) is buying the Renault F1 team for 50 million squids
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If true, might they race as Aston Martin I wonder instead of Prodrive?
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If true might they race as Aston Martin >>
Perhaps with Cosworth engines though Renault say they are committed.
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The FIA and FOCA need Renault to stay in as an engine supplier.
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Rumour Dave Richards (of pro-drive fame) is buying the Renault F1 team for 50 million squids
He perhaps could have bought Sauber BMW for less.
Might be more likely that he runs the team on behalf of Renault.
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Anyone got any ideas who the mysterious 4th person is, the Mr X?...i.e. the 4th person who knew Piquet Jr was going to crash and who became the whistleblower who cannot be named, even though all of F1 apparently know their identity
{moves to the Renault discussion, as more related to that}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/09/2009 at 01:01
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is, the Mr X?
Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh !
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/09/2009 at 01:01
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