Following some links (there's a lot of reading if you follow them) it seems many are using Two Stroke oil mixed with their diesel fuel.
tinyurl.com/nd5ap8
tinyurl.com/43psh3
tinyurl.com/mwosjn
Can't remember 2T oil in the various fuel additive discussions but feel free to delete this if it's already been covered Mods.
Could we have a nice discussion please, everyone's opinion is valid.
Edited by rtj70 on 04/06/2009 at 18:34
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Bonkers.
Manufacturers of Diesel cars design them to run on what comes out of the pump, not some weird mixture developed by latterday alchemists.
Come to think of it, maybe my engine oil should be enhanced by a shot of Aldi's washing up liquid, it's full of surfactants so must do some good!
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I have only heard of people using unleaded petrol/diesel mixes (cold weather usually).
Found this thread on another forum though: tinyurl.com/lvgyc3 all but a few replies state improved MPG, quieter running etc.
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Can I use it with Millers?
Will it clash? :)
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Ifithelps - thanks for the memory prod!
I last used Millers oils tinyurl.com/xcxv when I did my C&G's in Horticultural engineering - not seen or heard of the product for for years!
Same as Valvoline, hardly ever see them advertise any more: tinyurl.com/lgcvnd
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Same as Valvoline hardly ever see them advertise any more:
I believe they now trade as 'Fuchs' which incidentally is the oil of choice for my MB indy.
5W40 fully synthetic....for petrol and diesel engines.
My local shop (Wilko Carmaster) stock Millers oils and additives at very useful prices.
As an aside i'll be using one of these oil brands when my pick up gets it's next (interim) service, i'll have to speak to Toyota dealer to see if they'll put it in if i supply it at the main service.
Ifithelps...i'm only reporting these links, haven't a clue regards mixing with Millers DPS4, which i still use incidentally..;)
I assume the Doc won't be nipping to Wilkies to get some cheap 2T oil then?
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I had a two stroke mower that seized solid using Castrol agricultural two stroke oil. I then used their fully synthetic two stroke oil and it was fine for the next 10 years of ownership. It also smoked less.
During this period there was an occasion when none of the synthetic was on the shelves and I again used a little bottle of `agricultural`. Straight away there was more smoke and after a couple of cuts I could feel the engine `tightening` again. much heat coming off it at this point. I drained the fuel and went out and bought synthetic - no problems.
I`ve never seen a direct result like this before - but obviously the bore had suffered and synthetic two stroke oil made the difference to allow normal running.
I guess there`s an argument that I could have used an additive in the `normal` two stroke (or even synthetic) mix - but the best `designed for the job`oil proved fine - even with bore damage.
I use Mobil 1 in the van - which exceeds manufacturers specs. But I use conventional major brand Derv from high throughput sites - usually `regular Shell - not the special brew.
Two stroke oil must surely contain additives to deal with extreme heat on the cylinder walls and to lubricate roller bearings. Also to reduce carbon deposits in the exhaust ports and to prevent plug whiskering.
None of which seems like the environment in a high pressure pump or injectors.
There is then the concern over clashes of additives within the actual derv - which fuel injection system manufactures and fuel companies have spent millions on ensuring compatibility, reliability and long enduring fuel system life.
A squirt of this or a squirt of that - maybe it`s hard wired in the psych from our hundreds of thousands of years as hunter gatherers.
I`ll just rub a bit of blueberry on my Clovis Point so it cuts through the air faster.... no hang on - i`ll just tap it three times on my head and give it a squirt of...
Step forward from those prehistoric shadows - from the fossil record in the dawn of Human history ......Anxiety reduction then...Custom and Practice.
(written for your amusement - GB ;-)
Edited by oilrag on 30/05/2009 at 16:32
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I had a two stroke mower that seized solid using Castrol agricultural two stroke oil. I then used their fully synthetic two stroke oil and it was fine for the next 10 years of ownership. It also smoked less.
I have come across some 2 strioke engines that quote say 40:1 mix for standard 2 stroke oil and 25:1 for synthetic. I would say that if you were to use the sythetix mix ratio with mineral oil you may possibly run into problems in this way.
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Re. sourcing Millers diesel additive, it is available from Halfords. (Well worth it according to my diesel mechanic)
(I last used Millers oils tinyurl.com/xcxv when I did my C&G's in Horticultural engineering -
not seen or heard of the product for for years!)
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Well worth it according to my diesel mechanic
I'd sooner do what the car manufacturer says.
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Can I use it with Millers? Will it clash? :)
Won't 'clash', no. My Tdci (166,000 miles) runs much smoother (than supermarket diesel alone), especially at slow speed, with a shot (1000:1) of good diesel additive such as the Miller's Eco-Diesel mentioned. Also, smoking under load is very much reduced. There is a motorway slip road which I have to use regularly - steeply uphill - to join a two-lane motorway. Getting my little 1.4 up to fifty up this hill used to be a struggle and there have been occasions where I've laid a bit of a smoke screen, but the diesel additive greatly reduced this.
Now I use a 200:1 mix of two-stroke oil (Asda cheapest), together with the diesel additive, and the engine is now so much quieter, the tick-over is so regular, it's so much smoother at low speed, and there's no visible smoke at all in the rear-view mirror when I climb that motorway slip-road. I'm converted!
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I'd seen a lot of discussion elsewhere on the web about putting 2 stroke oil in diesel to lubricate the fuel system and smooth the engine out. So I though I would try it on my car as I could see no way that 2 stroke oil could harm the engine/fuel system in any way, in fact 2 stroke oil is designed to have minimum ash.
I put a full 300ml bottle of bog-standard red 2 stroke in a full 70 litre tank of diesel (approx 230:1).
I have to say my car has rarely ever run as smoothly and quietly since.
I have tried the usual millers etc which dont seem to make any difference, but the 2 stroke is great.
Has anyone else had experience of this ?
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Interesting, I've read quite a bit about this and might dabble with this (I use Millers and it is good IMO) but the only thing is - does the colour (esp RED) put me at risk of being accused of running on red derv?
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- does the colour(esp RED) put me at risk of being accused of running on red derv?
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Good point actually, but I dont think it is a problem as the excise are looking more for a chemical trace rather than a dye colour, anyway there are red diesel additives on the market that I've seen. Castrol 2T is green if you want to use that.
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Roly - was this a common rail diesel or something older and waaaaaay less complicated?
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My concern would be the metallic anti-wear additives in the 2T oil depositing on the exhaust catalyst.
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I have to admit I work on the principle that modern engines are designed for modern fuel.
But I do put two stroke oil in my 1920's four stroke petrol engine's fuel as the engine design is lacking on the lubrication front and modern petrol is nothing like the 1920's stuff. 200:1 as an additive.
Modern diesel oil does not have the properties of the old fuel, and I think I'd research what was best, but I think I'd only bother if I ran an older diesel, say earlier than 1970.
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It is the VAG 2.0 TDI engine in an Audi A4 whih is Pumpe Duse or direct unit injector as opposed to common-rail.
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My concern would be the metallic anti-wear additives in the 2T oil depositing on the exhaust catalyst. <<
Catalyst? Diesel engine ?
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5 years running on TSO, sump had to be removed for an oil leak from the sump seal.
I think how clean the engine internally says it all
i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx33/injectiondoc/Fiesg
The garage removing the sump didnt know I added TSo to the fuel and just took the picture out of amazment of how clean it was internally for its age and mileage.
The amaxing thing is that 5 yaers ago when i read about a guy who had used TS0 for 200,000Km then stripped his engine to find no carbon in the inlet ports or EGR valve and the injectors were perfect and didnt need reconditiong I was a little scepticle but now I do wonder if he was spot on ?
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Holy thread resurrection batman!
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Injectiondoc, what car do you run?
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5 years running on TSO, sump had to be removed for an oil leak from the sump seal.
I think how clean the engine internally says it all
i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx33/injectiondoc/Fiesg
The garage removing the sump didnt know I added TSo to the fuel and just took the picture out of amazment of how clean it was internally for its age and mileage.
The amaxing thing is that 5 yaers ago when i read about a guy who had used TS0 for 200,000Km then stripped his engine to find no carbon in the inlet ports or EGR valve and the injectors were perfect and didnt need reconditiong I was a little scepticle but now I do wonder if he was spot on ?
How would an fuel additive affect the cleanliness of the engine internals?! Esepcially the bottom-end/crankshaft.
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Good 2-stroke oils have a high film strength which helps to improve the compression seal between the piston rings and cylinder walls, which should in turn lead to more complete combustion and less soot produced.
That should also lead to less combustion byproducts (soot etc) going into the lube oil.
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I do agree, but come on...that would make a fraction of a percect difference!
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The car is a Fiesta 1.6TDCi notoriuos for clogging up the oil galleries.
When a diesel engines is running with TSO the combustions appears to be far more complete as the emmission levels drop extremely low and the soot particles are not usually detected on the MOT test. hence to say with it running so mucjh cleaner the whole engine and EGr including injectors stay clean making it all more efficent.
I only add a very small amount to a tank of diesel but the MPG improves and the engine runs much quieter too. It now returns about 70-72 mpg on a run.
There are some extremely long thread running on some forums about the technical reasons why its so effective.
Here is one such very long thread but worth reading,
www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html?highlight=strok...l
Edited by injection doc on 22/12/2012 at 17:50
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I already add 500ml TSO to each 60 litre tankful in my Berlingo so I accept it has value to the cleanliness of the combustion side of the engine.
Being a BR member you probably change the engine oil more frequently?
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So how much do you add per tankful?
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>> My concern would be the metallic anti-wear additives in the 2T oil depositing on the exhaust catalyst. << Catalyst? Diesel engine ?
SInce c 2000 all diesels have cats..
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The cars with DPfs have shown to have a vastly reduced regen cycle on the forums owner vehicles & where users have used TSo for some years have had no issues with DPf's & if anything had reduced issues with DPF faults.
I just use low ash TSO on my vehicles with DPF and have never had a DPF issue or fault.
My Fiesta 1.6TDCI only has the one oil change per year as per the dealer service for those who think with the sump that clean must have regular oil changes.
The photo speaks for itself.
I only add 150ml per every 2 nd tank full and just 75ml on the alternative fill as the car runs perfectly with that dose.
Edited by injection doc on 22/12/2012 at 20:20
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"The photo speaks for itself."
I do not think it does from what I can see on the photograph I have seen engines just as clean with far more mileage and this without measuring wear in components is meaningless .Whether adding TSO to engines is a bad or a good thing I would not know but it is not recommended by the major oil manufacturers.
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Good 2-stroke oils have a high film strength which helps to improve the compression seal between the piston rings and cylinder walls
How does this work with a bowl-in-piston design? Shoudn't be much fuel getting washed onto the bores to provide the seal.
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It probably wouldn't help with Heron-style piston / cylinder head design. Personally I don't and wouldn't use 2-stroke in my diesel, as I'm not convinced it offers any benefit in the 500:1 or 1000:1 ratios that are suggested. But to each their own.
In the 2-strokes the oils are intended for, the fuel / oil ratio is usually somewhere between 25:1 and 50:1 depending on the engine's state of tune and intended usage, and at these levels the oil will do its job. Modern 2-stroke oils do offer film strengths which approach castor for film strength and lubricity, without all the mixing hassles.
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Oh, the benefits of 2SO in a crankcase scavenged engine are incontrivertible!
But running 2SO through the fuel system in an engine with a dedicated oiling system? Don't really get it. 1000:1 does sound like a homeopathic remedy compared to conventional ratios.
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TSO in the fuel is good for the owner who is neurotic and easily influenced.
The rest of us who are normal don't bother and have no problems..:-)
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Well I thought I would have a go, so bought a litre from the Shell garage, tipped in 500ml and topped up the tank (it was half full anyway). Just driven 200 miles and so far, no problems but no significant changes to the drive as yet.
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I have been popping in about 200ml per 90litre tank on and off for a number of years after reading how Mercedes recommended it for running in countries with poor standard of diesel. ASDA API TC, JASO-FB at £5/litre.
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Countries using low grade diesel won't have any of the catalytic exhaust after-treatment that developed countries do.
Two smokes are the only engines that you belching out smoke under normal operating condition!
Two smoke engines are notorious for fouling up spark plugs and power valves. TSO is used as a band-aid in engines that have no other lubrication system. TSO is designed as a "once-through" lubricant, so long term oxidation and thermal stability are not so important-unlike diesel fuel which, in a lot of fuel systems, runs through the system many times before entering the engine.
The idea of improving lubricity of fuel is appealing-but only if it doesn't have any unintended side-effects.
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I hope you don't use words like 'lubricity' when you have a lady over for the evening.
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when you have a lady over for the evening.
That takes me back !
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At 28 I hope such years still stretch before me.
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Collos25
" I have seen engines just as clean with far more mileage "
Well thats odd becuaes the garage that removed the sump havent seen a diesel engine so clear of deposits & thats why they took a picture.
If you look at this link another poster has posted pictures of a Variable vane turbo stripped at 153000km and a piston on a TDV6 and you will see how clean it is.
www.freel2.com/forum/topic878-795.html
I have seen injectors and EGr & throttle bodies after 100,000 miles that are like new after running with TSO and you dont see many clean EGRs or throttle bodies on diesels.
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If you think it does good then keep on using it but I will stop in the real world.
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Quick question regarding the use of oil. If this was so effective why are oil companies simply not adding it to their diesel and profiting? Or would it be part of their premium deisel like Vpower?
Edited by Paul87 on 24/12/2012 at 15:35
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Quick question regarding the use of oil. If this was so effective why are oil companies simply not adding it to their diesel and profiting? Or would it be part of their premium deisel like Vpower?
Cos it's all in the mind..
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I have tried TSO in my Mitsi L200 navvy wagon at 200 to 1 on a full tank of fuel. It immediately ran quieter, less massey ferguson sound effects on a cold start, didn't affect the fuel mileage though-not surprising really considering its 115 hp is dragging 2 tonnes (unladen) of truck around.
From what I have read about adding TSO to diesel fuel it seems that there could be something else happening to the fuel apart from the lubricity improvement to the fuel- some kind of complicated molecular bond has been mentioned in some reports, could this be promoting better combustion?
I said that it immediately ran quieter - why? How could merely improving the lubricity of the fuel affect the function of the injection pump? It's a jap licenced copy of the Bosch EPVE4 distributor pump design-with electronic control, ie fly- by- wire.
The only possible mechanical effect that I can think of is that the injection timing auto advance function of these pumps is operated via secondary fuel pressure from the transfer pump - better lubricating qualities of the fuel = more responsive auto advance/retard function of pump.
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After saying there was no noticeable difference, after a cold night standing outside, the start up this morning definately felt smoother and quicker to catch.
However I had done 250 miles of mostly motorway driving and a "ahem" speed since top up, and no doubt that would have also cleaned a bit of gunge out.
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I have tried TSO in my Mitsi L200 navvy wagon at 200 to 1 on a full tank of fuel. It immediately ran quieter, less massey ferguson sound effects on a cold start, didn't affect the fuel mileage though-not surprising really considering its 115 hp is dragging 2 tonnes (unladen) of truck around.
From what I have read about adding TSO to diesel fuel it seems that there could be something else happening to the fuel apart from the lubricity improvement to the fuel- some kind of complicated molecular bond has been mentioned in some reports, could this be promoting better combustion?
I said that it immediately ran quieter - why? How could merely improving the lubricity of the fuel affect the function of the injection pump? It's a jap licenced copy of the Bosch EPVE4 distributor pump design-with electronic control, ie fly- by- wire.
The only possible mechanical effect that I can think of is that the injection timing auto advance function of these pumps is operated via secondary fuel pressure from the transfer pump - better lubricating qualities of the fuel = more responsive auto advance/retard function of pump.
I have heard the quieter running is due to the fuel combusting less explosively, and may not be the desirable. Apparently diesels are designed to work with the 'explosiveness' of standard fuel.
I still do it to help the fuel pump, injectors, and to clean the bores/EGR.
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I did not realise there were that many people in the UK who paid to help ruin and reduce there lifespan of there engines and ancillary equipment.
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I said that it immediately ran quieter - why? How could merely improving the lubricity of the fuel affect the function of the injection pump
Rotary pumps make a racket. Most of the clatter from engines equipped with this type of pump come s from the pump rather than diesel knock.
But, like clattery valvetrains, the noise isn't necesarily indicative of a problem. When a clattery valvetrain stops making noise, the problems start...
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if plain diesel from the pump was thought to be detrimental to the fuel system of modern day engines due to the low sulfur, why again have compianes like shell and bp not used their (no doubt huge) R&D departments to devlop and then advertise these new additives. Is this not just a way in bringin supermarket diesel up to a premium diesel standard?
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It's an IDI engine in the L200's pre 2006 - they are very noisy from cold, combustion noise that is, and quieten down as they get up to working temp.
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Lucas-CAV DPA pumps were always very noisy - the rollers rattled about going on and off the cam ring, even worse if they were specced for a three or two cylinder motor, the Bosch EPVE series was always a lot quieter.
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