SWMBO has been whining about the alternator drive belt on her Saxo, which was slack and whining. Anyway, I managed to put it off till tomorrow for about the last month, until today she pulled the dastardly trick of threatening to go to a garage and pay for it.
Nothing for it but to grab the Haynes and see what "modern car nightmares" awaited. According to Mr H the front wheel had to come off, followed by the wheelarch liner and the unclipping of a pipe which was in the way. I assembled the jack, axle stands and tools and steeled myself for the miserable task of trying to locate the thirty thousand mud caked screws which held the liner on, the said item which would then distort and be a nightmare to screw back on again afterwards.
Then I thought, "Hang on, lets have a peep underneath before I jack it up and see what I can see". What I could see were the two tensioner retaining bolts and the adjuster, all within easy reach of an arm with a relaxed bend at the elbow and no obstructions. Two minutes with an Allen bit and a socket and it was job done, no jacking or removing half the front of the car.
Do Haynes actually do half of these jobs themselves, or do they just look at some drawings and guess? I have had exactly the same sort of mis-information from the book when I changed the starter motor and the alternator on my Mondy, both missing things out and adding un-nescessary removal of componants. I don't tinker as much as I used to anymore, but from my youth I recall Haynes manuals as being accurate and comprehensive. Or is my memory playing tricks, and they were always carp?
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I have one from 1982 for the Lada Riva. It goes into huge detail about how to take things apart, my late 90's ones don't go into any detail. If I need to work on a car I just ask people on here how they did the job, it is a lot more useful. Still Haynes ahs its uses.
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Not worth buying these days IMHO, forums like this are 100 times mor euseful. The Zafira A one doesn't have proper wiring diagrams , and some of the fault finding advice is way off beam.
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I don't know whether they do the jobs themselves - ISTR somewhere in the books it says how they're put together - but it isn't coincidence that they're known as "BOL".
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IIRC it was in the early 90's, when i was still in the car spares business that Haynes stopped calling them "workshop manuals" and from then on labelled them a "service and repair manual" which went into much less detail, at the same time they started printing them on a really cheap looking yellow paper. Interestingly the price they charged for them didn't drop though !
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My problem with them is they don't explain how to solve problems. I remember trying to get the door card off my Fiesta to try and fix the mechanism but I could not get the winder off. My mecahnic had to do in the end and even he took 5 minutes trying to find the clip. How is joe public supposed to it? Yes I know its justy a tiny pin but its very fiddely, yet Haynes gave it 1/5.
The same when I replaced the air filter on the same car, it should have been an easy job but all the hex screws had rusted in so it was so much harder than Haynes suggested.
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They did use to do a complete strip down and rebuild for the workshop manuals, but always used a brand new car, so often used terms like "simply undo the nuts holding the.................", easier said than done when a car is 10 years old ! Incidently the first manual they produced was for the frog eye sprite (yes, i know i am sad for knowing that), how simple must that have been to take to bits, all 150 parts of it !
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I could not get the winder off. My mecahnic had to do in the end and even he took 5 minutes trying to find the clip.
The Haynes manual for my old mk2 Cavalier actually had a fabulous "handy hint" for this which involved passing a piece of rag between the winder and the door card in a "sawing motion" to snag the metal end of the clip and open it. It worked well. > it should have been an easy job but all the hex screws had rusted in so it was so much >> harder than Haynes suggested.
That's just Fords unfortunately, Rattle. Lovely cars, but the quality of the fasteners they use at times beggars belief. Made of the same stuff BL used to turn into cars, I think. ;-) Haynes photo cars are always quite new as well, so they can't foresee this stuff. I seem to recall the Mondeo they strip down and rebuild in that manual has about 15 miles on the clock if the odometer in the dashboard shots is accurate.
I always have Haynes manuals for my cars, if available. They have their faults, but they are a lot better than nothing. These days there is definitely a lot more "If a fault is suspected with the xxxx system, refer to a Xxxx dealer for advice" than there used to be, but I suspect that's just the nature of modern cars. They also no longer cover gearbox strip down/rebuilds which they used to.
Still worth £15 though.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 01/03/2009 at 21:38
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Replacing a heater switch I would have seemingly sheered the centre console mounts off had I `prised down` instead of pulling forward.
Then there was the recent situation with headlight bulbs, where the rear of the housing was removed with the fuse box seemingly removed in the pic (without mentioning it) - when it can be done by undoing the three headlight mountings taking five minutes. It can`t be done in fact on the passenger side without popping the headlight forward or removing the fuse box......No mention of that.
Then there was stripping the whole of the door interior down to fit a new check strap - when it too can be done in ten minutes through the speaker housing.
Then it`s Diesel engines excluded...... fault codes and diagnostics excluded....
I might leave it open one day under the oil filter to absorb oil when doing an oil change
;-)
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I have a Haynes for the 205 (late 80s) and the 306 (late 90s). The earlier one gives all sorts of details about gear ratios and other stuff which doesn't really help to fix cars, but it is clear that a thorough job has been done dismantling and reassembling everything.
The 306 manual illustrates that fewer things are now fixable by the 'normal' DiY mechanic. I suspect that creeping computerisation and perhaps deliberate obstruction by makers, together with H&S considerations, has made today's Haynes a completely different thing. Although in principle there is more cash to be saved, much more expensive kit is needed to do anything beyond basic things like oil and filter changes. Even that operation is not mentioned in Peugeot's handbook for the 207.
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My Mondeo manual is pretty useless - quite a lot about the things you'll never do and nothing about the things that would be within the reach of DIY (or at least checking on what the dealer is up to) if only you knew where things were. Lots of generic padding rather than handy tips about the particular car. I think, though at this distance I can't be sure, that they used to be better.
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Don't they include filling dents with lead any more?
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They are not as good as they were. A lot of the information seems to be generalised and the H. manuals I have for my present cars have very little info on the gearbox. It says how to remove it and thens says to send it to s specialist. In the older manuals they used to have all the indtructions for stripping down and overhauling gearboxes - not that I ever did that! OK, modern gearboxes might be built to finer tolerances and need specialist procedures, but surely the same is true of modern engines, yet the manuals do tell you how to strip them down and rebuild.
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1. I bought the Haynes years ago for my 1600E.
I then bought the Ford manual. Well there were many of the same words and photos in both.
Neither had a simple diagram / explanation re a cold start coil /system and that cost me a burnt out coil.
2. Changing a Sierra water pump. You must use a thin walled cranked spanner specially made for the task. Afraid not when doing an emergency job on a bank holiday.
Lucky to get the pump ! I did the job, a lot slower but with normal spanners.
I believe they amended things for the next edition.
3. I contacted them as I considered the Mk 1 Focus manual (2001 - an early edition ?) was a mess.
Many photos have the arrows missing on them. A section that I required contained repeated info from the previous section so not a lot of use.
They said they would sort it out for future editions.
4. The Focus had a wing mirror lightly clipped and the glass broke.
Haynes gives a long procedure on replacing it.
My independant Ford garage, for £3, replaced the glass in literally seconds
I was very impressed with them but not the Haynes way.
5. I had a very intermittent electrical fault on my Mondeo that made most of the electrics dead. ( I have often wondered if the previous owned got rid of it for this reason). Using the circuit diagrams I was able to eventually pinpoint the problem and easily fix it ( a blown fuse that was still working). A BIG thank you to Haynes that time.
I might have got a big bill from a garage and possibly a few porkies on what the problem was.
Both our Focus and the Mondeo have central locking problems.
A dedicated detailed section on this would be a bonus. This is sort of fixing that is possible on such cars rather than the oily bits.
I too always buy the manual. I have found it always pays for itself.
Haynes have responded well when I have contacted them.
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Yes I agree, they have always been worth the money.
I saw a French series of Manuals though and they were on shiny quality paper - with good contrast (resulting in clear diagrams and photos) and a few pages on the diesels in the Punto range.
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"Hang on, lets have a peep underneath"
I think that approach is essential. The illustrations are often useful to get the layout of components you may not be able to see, but I've only occasionally followed the instructions!
To be fair to Haynes, there is much wider range of vehicles in general circulation, but fewer jobs that lend themselves to home maintenance, so it must be harder for them to turn a profit. The detailed (mostly computer-based) stuff used in garages is pretty expensive, both to buy and to keep updated.
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I may be muddling them with Autobooks, but one or other of them certainly used to be much better. I remember once talking to someone who wrote articles for them (or was it Autobooks?) and he said they really did do all the jobs themselves, and on an old car not a new one. The photos were real pictures done on the job. Often they described the likely difficulties in undoing old components, described the kind of problems or wear likely to be encountered, and gave diagrams of home-made makeshift tools to use if you couldn't get access to the proper ones.
I remember the home-made axle casing spreader from angle iron and threaded rod, and a tool for getting a circlip off the main gearbox shaft.
They really don't write books like that any more.
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I think there's an element of "health and safety" in Haynes' guides now so they may suggest much more dismantling to avoid mishaps.
A car now has to be produced in mega quantities before Haynes will porduce a guide, no manual yet for the very popular new Fiat Panda, for example.
Some parts of modern cars, for example gearboxes, need highly specialised tools and techniques to repair them and Haynes acknowledge that this is beyond the scope of a DIY manual.
My experience of older Haynes manuals is that they did strip down and photograph a real car, although I believe it was new or nearly new. I don't know how they produce their latest guides.
Despite their flaws, it is useful to have access to a relatively cheap manual, even if all you want is the tightening torque for roadwheels or how to replace an air filter. Modern manufacturer-supplied handbooks that arrive with the car rarely provide useful information.
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Ah, good ol' Haynes.
"Carefully prise..."
SNAP!
Oh, did we forget to mention the small screw which neatly holds it in place? No? Sorry.
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Or equally, "apply a little pressure to release"...
Which generally meant getting a large piece of scaffolding and getting an elephant to sit on the end to create the necessary leverage...
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'Retain the circlip'
PING. Where the hell did that go?
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No manual yet for the very popular new Fiat Panda, for example
I thought it was not Haynes' intention to produce a manual for a model still well within warranty? So that owners were not jeopardising that, and also they would have more time to take a car apart and reassemble it?
Incidentally, I occasionally see the present Mr Haynes' tailor-made Ferrari at my local indie's ...
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I think that approach is essential. The illustrations are often useful to get the layout of components you may not be able to see but I've only occasionally followed the instructions!
I found the illustrations are far simpler than they used to be, e.g. the routing of coolant pipes etc are not shown and so on.
I don't think they dismantle and rebuild a car like they used to and most if not all of the diagrams and photos are taken from the manufacturers own Technical manuals.
The pages also looks like recycled paper so they are not as durable as they were, not worth the asking price IMO, probably worth a tenner or so.
As said above loads of advice about rebuilding the engine type jobs but very little on general repairs.
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Haynes have problems that many versions of the same car have significantly different underbonnet layouts so replacing some items like bulbs on 1 vserion eg a 1.1 but be vastly different on a 1.6 with aircon.
I do not expect Haynes will strip all the versions to find out.
I find them useful: I am never going to strip a gearbox (or rebuild an engine - now. I used to)... but they do have lots of useful stuff.
Regarding fasteners, the best are in my experience: BMW and Toyota..
Ford and Peugeot are rubbish.
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Volvo are good too. Have yet to come across a single corroded or rounded fastener on my seven and a bit year old S60
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Haynes aren't as good as they used to be - but at least you don't get a huge supplements section at the back which you have to read through first, then compare with your own car!
I too was perplexed with the lack of gearbox information, particularly for the Corsa. Yes, gearbox components are expensive, but then so are engine components if you buy them from a dealer.
In fact, reading the Astra/Belmont and Nova manuals recently, I was staggered by how simply replacement and stripping of the gearbox is. As you'll read in my post in Technical, the most technical bit of the job was managed by a housebrick! Compared to the setting up of the fuel pump, as detailed in Haynes, which requires a special depth indicator, and the replacement of the cylinder head gasket which requires a dial test indicator, the gearboxes are a doddle!
Thankfully they've started printing them on real book paper now - oil doesn't soak through that as readily.
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I seem to remember bringing this up before - at one time you used to get exploded line drawings in Haynes manuals, now you just get photos taken of components after they've been removed.
There's even a photo in the Micra manual showing a mirror glass being removed by prizing it out vertically. When I did this it broke - the catch holds horizontally!
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My classic Haynes 'mistook' was in a manual for one of my first motorcycles.
"After removing engine-mounting bolts, lift out the engine from the left-hand side."
After a couple of hours of grunting, twisting and swearing - yup - you can guess - it slid out nice and easy from the right hand side.
Favourite Haynes quote?
"Reassemble in the reverse order to dismantling." Not always that easy!
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I think they're particularly good for trim. They DO IME tell you where to find the screws and how to undo the lugs.
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I have stopped buying Haynes manuals two cars ago. With both my Fiat Coupe and the G.Punto I have simply bought a CD with mantainance information on them.
These are usually available from the relevant marque fora. IIRC they are a lot cheaper too.
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I still think they're worth £18 or so. I'm looking forward to the Focus 2005 onwards model being covered. I wrote to Haynes a few weeks ago and they hope to publish it this September.
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Although they can be useful they don't allways tell you the best way to do things.
One example of the Haynes way being over complicated, but applies to two cars, remove the steering wheel to change the indicator stalk.
1st car I noticed this on was a Renault 19, did it without removing the wheel.
2nd car their over complicated way seems more of a problem, 1998 escort, as this has an airbag removing the steering wheel is more complicated and could put off a DIY repair. I also did this one without removing the wheel.
Occurs to me I have terrible luck with indicator stalks, 2 out of the 3 cars I've had have needed them replacing.
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For the last few I have sworn I would not buy one again, but still do. I think it's the excitement of a new car that does it. I doubt I will get one again though. Google and the DVDs you can buy online are 100x better.
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I've considered getting the Haynes "Man manual" -
MAN, (120,000BC to Present Day. All models, shapes, sizes and colours).
I wonder if there are many mistakes in there I should worry about?
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Engine management system (brain)
Seek help if you are drinking too much alcohol, are depressed or getting migraine headaches. Don?t hide grief - talk about it and seek support. To reduce the risk of a stroke (akin to a major oil leak), choose a good diet, control your weight, get regular exercise and (need we say it again) don?t smoke!
------------------------------------------------------------
Shurely shome mishtake?
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I haven't looked at one for about 10 years, but I have read my fair share.
Some of the books were better than others back then, I guess that will happen as they can't all be written by the same person. It's not like there is a formula for writing car manuals.
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