Blue, the doom-and-gloom is usually from people who've never had an lpg car. If the job is properly done with a set-up right for the car, you should have no problems. I had no problems with mine a few years ago on a Jeep and always found gas where advertised.
Good luck!
Edited by Webmaster on 20/07/2008 at 20:58
|
Best of luck with it.
If you like your car and want to keep it for a number of years then the cost of conversion will not only be offset by lower running costs, but also by the fact you will not be losing money in depreciation / buying a newer car.
A friend of mine has an Omega 2.5 V6 auto that was converted to LPG over 3 years ago. He swears by it, it has all the toys he wants and it's costing peanuts to run & maintain.
He's happily banking his job's car / mileage allowance as he does 10K+ business miles per year. He is not a petrolhead and doesn't cane the car, so in his words, he can't tell the difference in performance or economy.
|
|
Does the VED band change if you fit LPG?
|
|
|
|
actually, my comments are born of experience , having run an LPG converted 1996 Nissan 4.2 petrol Patrol for a few years , and still use it regularly having sold it to a mate / business partner .
Here in NW London, LPG is 61.9 p, and unleaded around 118 - 123p . I have befriended the LPG installer who stopped installing them after having to refund a limousine co £22k when all their S classes broke down after the LPG conversion - apparently they had a plastic element in the inlet manifold which melted .
My last trip to BP yielded ' No gas ' and at Murco by Staples corner the Nozzle was bust- no gas and a 10 mile return trip to find it.
So, this ' doom merchant ' is speaking from experience . And don't forget the LPG at least in this conversion needs to be warmed up by hot water from cooling system. If the water is not hot and you attempt to drive on LPG from cold, the machine will cut out, usually on the Ist bend or traffic lights . You can be lucky on warmer days and drive away from cold on LPG, but the outside temp needs to be at least 22 - 23 c
Ergo, LPG is no good for short , urban journeys .
Edited by motorprop on 20/07/2008 at 17:09
|
Motorprop, sounds like that conversion is not fit for purpose in certain vehicles.
I didn't think you could start on lpg anyway. The system I had, and I believe most others, start on petrol and switch to lpg when warm enough. Even in winter, this was within a mile for my vehicle.
You were certainly unlucky with supplies, perhaps things are different out here in the wild East. :-)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi Blue, I'm seriously looking at an lpg conversion - you mention Newcastle (I presume on-Tyne) I'm in Co Durham and wonder who is doing your conversion?
|
I looked at a couple of local ones, CLS Dual Fuel in Durham and Lambda One which is in Gateshead I think. I got good impressions from both of them, however, some of the guys on the Mondeo forum had their conversions done at Warrington Autogas and they were full of praise.
I found out that by getting it done there the cost was actually a little lower than some of the local quotes and I got a courtesy car which is sat on my drive now. As the job takes about 3 days this is an essential consideration as I don't want to be immobile for that long. The car is a Ford Ka which is a little battered to be honest but it's far better than the bus!
I'll update you with how it goes.
|
|
Thats very interesting Blue that you came down to my neck of the woods to have it done. I wonder if its worthwhile having the Outback converted?
|
|
Subaru were offering conversions on new Foresters recently. It may be worth asking what system they use and who did it for them. Presumably Subaru have full confidence in LPG as they keep the full warranty and other manufacturers have or do offer dual fuel vehicles. This suggests that there is no problem with LPG per se, but only with poor or inappropriate conversions.
|
I have to be honest I was quite surprised when I got there, the place was very much out of the way in an industrial estate and I've got to be honest, if it hadn't been recommended to me I probably wouldn't have gone there! I suppose time will tell me whether I've made the right choice or not but in my experience you can't go far wrong when you follow recommendations from people who've had it done to their identical cars!
Will let you know the outcome as soon as I get back on Thursday.
|
So if it costs 55%, and gets you 80% as far... that means it's effectively 31% cheaper than petrol.
And if the conversion costs £1,650, that means you have to spend £5,300 on LPG in order to break even.
If you're lucky you'll only spend 10% of the time running on petrol when you cannot find an LPG garage, so lets say £6,000 on fuel.
So it should pay for itself in - what - 45,000 miles? Bargain. Not.
|
Yes it doesn't really seem to be economical, especially for older cars. I have been thinking about it lately though, even considered selling my diesel and buying a dual fuel car (e.g. Volvo S60) as LPG is still half the price of petrol here in the North East.
My father in law is in the middle of a project to construct a 4x4 silver shadow at the moment and is using a V8 Range Rover as the donor car - I helped him take the engine out of that last weekend and the gas conversion on it (reputedly by an established LPG conversion specialist) was a complete mess - pipes all over the engine bay routed wherever was easiest rather than with any consideration to maintenance. Seeing this sort of work made me think I would rather avoid a conversion, and in fact I've gone luke warm over the dual fuel idea as the cars seem rather few and far between and somewhat overpriced....
However - when my FiL sorts the Rolls and tidies the conversion he will have a stonking V8 towcar which will at present prices cost him no more to run when towing than his diesel people carrier which manages 25mpg with a 'van on the back.
|
So if it costs 55% and gets you 80% as far... that means it's effectively 31% cheaper than petrol. And if the conversion costs £1 650 that means you have to spend £5 300 on LPG in order to break even. So it should pay for itself in - what - 45 000 miles? Bargain. Not.
That's not how my figures work out:-
Local LPG is 49.9p, petrol is 115.9p.
My research also indicates that the LPG should go 90% as far as petrol, so, let's say it's 85% and meet in the middle.
Based on this, 15,000 miles per annum works out as follows:-
LPG - 20mpg @ 49.9p = £1,706 per year (need to add a little more on really as the first mile each trip is done on petrol unless the engine is already hot)
Petrol - 23mpg @ 115.9 = £3,439 per year.
That's a difference of £1733.
Now, let's say that I start the car 5 times per day on average, 5 miles per day on petrol at 20mpg (engine is cold so let's use a lower mpg figure) would be equal to about £417 worth of fuel over the year. So that would reduce the difference to £1,316 over 12 months. This means that my conversion would be repaid in about 15 months.
Now then, lets say that I don't do the conversion, I start dipping into my savings accounts to pay for fuel every week, this works fine for a couple of years, after which time, I have depleted my savings substanially and still have a car that I can no longer afford to run. It makes a little more sense when you look at it like that?
It may not be foolproof, and I've no doubt that there will be some bumps along the way, but personally, I would rather give this a go, my uncle had his Rover converted and then did well over 150K on it before the engine died from it's second or third HGF. He had no LPG related problems and was very happy with it, which I must admit, has given me the spur on to try it myself. The worst that can happen is that I totally waste my £1,650 and chalk it to experience, one up from that is that I never really breakeven before selling the car, or, optimistically, I end up saving money and find that my V6 Mondeo is actually still saleable in 2 years time, it is presently about as attractive to used buyers as a flatulence in a sauna.
Edited by Webmaster on 21/07/2008 at 18:25
|
Disppointed that the swear filter blocked that word, that's prudishness that would make Mary Whitehouse proud! :-)
|
The swear filter is very sensitive about flatulence. It censors any mention of the smallest English coin before decimalisation, for example. Perhaps it lives in a sauna.
Yr meticulous calculations are quite convincing Blue. I look forward to hearing about the proof of the pudding in due course.
|
|
Be very interested in knowing how you get on as considering buying a car and getting it converted myself. Have seen loads of suppliers who trade on ebay which can do it on one day for £800 - £1000, but like previous BR'ers comments felt unnerved and never had the bottle. Have heard from a friend who does autocross with an LPG car that a race logic ecu or something similiar cures the ecu light on. Provided the water system doesn't leak and the ignition is tip top, all goes well apparently. As previously stated, travelling 70 miles a day from Hartlepool to Newcastle, I am very curious to know how things go. Fingers crossed Blue.
|
Im getting the feeling that I'm becoming the Backroom Guinea Pig with this. :-)
|
If you're lucky you'll only spend 10% of the time running on petrol when you cannot find an LPG garage so lets say £6 000 on fuel. So it should pay for itself in - what - 45 000 miles? Bargain. Not.
Not great sums, surely? £6,000 buys 1100 gallons of petrol, and a V6 Mondeo averages (according to official figures) about 27MPG ... so the payback time is less than 30,000 miles
So it depends how much life the car has left in it. If it's good for another 60,000 miles, then the conversion may save £1650 on petrol (at current prices).
However, I did the sums myself on my youngish (33K miles) Almera automatic, which turns in about 36mpg. Assuming that conversion costs would be a bit lower on a 4-cylinder, less highly-tuned car, my payback point would be at about 35,000 miles on current fuel prices.
However, the conversion would cost about 30% of the value of the car, which seems disproportionate. And the 35,000 mile payback point only applies if the car isn't stolen or written off and I don't need to sell it, because I doubt I could expect any more back at resale time.
In the meantime, I would have no spare wheel (which could get v expensive if a tyre blows out), the possibility of higher insurance on a non-standard car, the certainty of higher servicing costs, and the possibility that this expensive new kit might all go badly wrong. To make it worth doing, I'd want a much more rapid payback.
It'd be a difft matter if I was buying a car with a manufacturer-fitted dual-fuel kit, where the installation would be of proven quality and insurers wouldn't be put off.
|
My impression has always been that LPG conversions could be a good idea with biggish or big thirsty cars, but that the expense and loss of reliability would not be worthwhile with a smaller car that was affordable to run on petrol. Bristol list a model with factory dual-fuel. Got a big boot too so there's still some room for luggage.
What interests me is the way cars drive on LPG. Never experienced it. A bit softer, quieter and slower I understand - the power loss being another reason why it might work with a big car but less well with a small one.
|
NowWheels - You make a very valid point about the spare wheel, I need to remember to pack that in the spacious boot if I go on a long run, around the doors I think I can get away with gunk or my breakdown cover. If I can get a space saver wheel I may keep it in there 24/7.
My only other alternative to this conversion was to buy something like a Micra diesel, but then I may as well have just bought some stringback driving gloves and joined Saga. I'm not prepared to give up my only big luxury item just yet. :-)
|
|
Blue, I'm glad to see you got a solution to the spare wheel problem. But how will your insurance be affected by the conversion?
|
It's not, Swiftcover state on their website that they cover all professionally converted vehicles, I don't even need to inform them (that is specifically stated in their help pages). You didn't think that I would overlook that now did you? :-)
|
Your insurance should not be a problem. There was no change on mine, it just had to be a certified installation.
Don't forget in your sums that the vehicle will probably have a higher resale value. On the Jeep I had done it added £1000 (on a £5000 vehicle) according to the insurance assessor after my dearly beloved wrote it off, bless her.
|
In my Mondeo's case I'd be happy if it just made it saleable at all. I paid £2,200 (plus £300 worth of immediate repairs) for it last October. I put it on Ebay 2 months ago and got offered £600 for it, that was the best offer!
So, in my case, I've spent approximately double what the car is probably worth getting it converted, but, once it's done and it has four new Clarion speakers and a Parrot Bluetooth kit it will be worth far more to me than anyone else. I envisage a car with all the mod cons (the Climate Control, Heated Seats, Cruise Control etc. all work perfectly), a smooth, powerful and economical engine and a decent enough appearance, effectively for the cost of the LPG install. :-)
|
OK guys, sorry for the delay, I picked her up on Thursday and you'll be pleased to hear that all seems well. :-)
She runs exactly the same on gas as she does on petrol, you can only tell a slight difference when really, really caning it right up to the red line, in these situations the car feels a little "softer" however, that can be cured by temporarily switching to petrol if you feel the extra 10th of a second is worth it.
I found the actual economy to be a little disappointing on the way home, I calculated that the car got 20mpg when I was expecting closer to 30mpg however, there are two important points to consider:-
1) I attempted to do a brim to brim, however, I have no idea if the tank was truly brimmed before I set off as it's very difficult to judge with gas, the only way to be more sure is to use the same pump. Apparently different pumps can sometimes squeeze more, or less gas into the tank which can make a "full" tank a bit more debateable than petrol (gas is compressable, petrol isn't) To make matters worse, the gas gauge that is fitted is faulty and has to be rectfied at the 1000 mile checkup, I certainly wasn't waiting around for it to be fixed on Thursday.
2) Apparently the vapouriser can take a while to bed in and deliver better consumption, I thought this sounded a little lame but my friend who had his done recently has confirmed that the consumption does indeed drop during the first 1000 miles.
Happy so far, will let you all know of any problems as and when they occur.
Edited by Blue {P} on 26/07/2008 at 13:22
|
Ha ha ha!!! :-D
Since emptying the tank the other week and refilling it I have done over 255 miles and haven't quite ran out again yet, that already works out at 40mpg from my V6 assuming it ran out right now, and I still have a little bit left.
Whoop whoop!
|
|
The car is just about worthless and you are going to fit a very expensive gas unit even if the price of gas is as you say it won't be that price for long (going up 45%for October delivery)plus the real cost of using gas is normally only about 10%cheaper than diesel.A large council I do work for bought a amount of it vehicles to run on gas they have all gone now it was a disaster. I think you should use the money more wisely and buy an eco car but certainly look at the economics a bit closer.
|
I'm guessing you didn't read all the way to the end? :-)
It's a bit late to change my mind now seeing as it's already done! Where's this information about LPG going up 45% for October delivery?
Oil prices have eased lately and as LPG is a by-product of oil processing I can't see why hte price would go up 45%?
|
Well, I'm still getting 40mpg equivalent even taking into account the recent shocking rise in LPG prices to 52.9p and drop in petrol to 108p.
I've had one "issue" with the kit so far, it seems a cable hadn't been secured very well and managed to chafe through which single handedly screwed my electrics up and brought the car to a very definite stop. A quick trip to the garage and 20 minutes later she was back to life with newly secured cabling that will not suffer a repeat occurance.
The garage pointed out to me that the kit has a 2 year warranty on it so really, so long as it pays back in 2 years, I can afford to chuck it all in the bin after 2 years and a day. In the meantime I have the pure delight of having a V6 that I can afford to play with daily without worrying about the cost.
I'll let you all know as soon as I regret my decision.
|
I am in Australia and am getting my Ford Falcon station wagon fitted with LPG tomorrow. Cost is to be $5000 and I get $3000 back on Govt rebates for conversions. Conversions are very popular here and there are lots of garages selling LPG. I do about 10,000km a year and my calculations give a payback period of just under 3 years. My intention is to keep the car for 10 years so hopefully I will be well in front. My son had his Ford Falcon done last year and it has been a great success. Saved him heaps of money. I drive lots of LPG vehicles at work from the office car pool and have found very little difference in power. When you have a 4 lt 6 cyl you don't often use all the power any way.
Glad to hear it has worked out well for you Blue. Don't blame you for hanging onto the Mondeo. I would hate to have to drive a little shopping trolley all the time. OK for centre of the towns but no fun on the open road.
|
OK guys, to keep this topic up to date, recent problems:-
The kit went through a phase of switching over to petrol after detecting a fault with the MAP sensor, it seems to have settled down now after a replacement sensor fitted under warranty.
I have found that spark plug life is drastically reduced on LPG so have switched to Iridium plugs last week, these were fitted whilst I was away for the weekend so I made my return journey with them installed which brings me to my opinions on the merits of running an LPG car.
The journey I did today was Manchester to Sunderland (about 140 miles), details of the car:-
Mondeo V6 with c. 95K miles
5 adult passengers (none of us are petite!)
A boot full of luggage (I mean really laden down!)
Climate Control on the whole way
140 miles covered up over the Pennines
Probably stuck at about 85mph for most of the trip and didn't pay attention to economy so if I needed past something I dropped a cog and booted it. I had her above 6,000rpm on a few occasions and got to hear that lovely noise that only a nice petrol can make! ;-)
After noticing the difference that the fresh plugs were making I took her straight to the garage and filled her up where I discovered that despite all of the above factors I had achieved a petrol equivalent of 46mpg...
The only words that I can find to fit that situation are "whoop whoop!!"
I'm still waiting to regret it! :-)
Edited by Blue {P} on 02/09/2009 at 00:32
|
I'm just astonished that you have kept the car for over 12 months!
Not because of the car, but because you are one of the people on here most likely to change cars reasonably regularly. So the car must be doing something right for you - that's great.
|
Well it's funny you should mention that Espada but I am looking towards changing at xmas, not because it's put a foot wrong or because it doesn't carry out it's duties to a high standard, but simply because I've had it for soooo long now. As of about now I have owned it for 2 years and nearly 30K which is a length of time that I have never kept a car before!
The problem is when choosing a replacement I want a 4/5 seater larger sized car with all the gadgets, at least 180bhp, not a diesel, that does 40+mpg... :-)
To be fair I will probably end up going the diesel route or down another LPG conversion, there's no way I would want another 20mpg car!
|
How did it go with the insurance, one of the things that put me off, when I had my Mk3 Mondeo V6, was that the insurance company, although they wouldn't increase the premium, wanted a safety certificate every year. Another was that the conversion needs a service every year, another cost to factor in as it isn't a DIY prospect if you need the safety certificate. The final nail in the coffin was that I only do a 3 mile commute to work, so the LPG would hardly be cutting in in the colder months.
I'm glad it worked out for you, but I can't understand why you are changing the car after such a large investment, or has it paid for itself already ?
Edited by kith on 03/09/2009 at 15:35
|
I think it's paid for itself already, I've done about 20K and saved about 10p a mile for most of that period (dropping slightly whilst petrol was really cheap), the main thing for me is that for the last year I've had a large V6 powered car that I could afford to drive about as though it ran on fresh air. I've been all over and never worried about the cost once :-)
My insurers are SwiftCover and they aren't interested in the conversion, don't need a safety cert and it doesn't need to be an LPGA converter to do the job. As far as servicing goes, my installer has pointed out that all they really do is change the gas filter and check it all over. I've had one service done but am in no rush to bother with the second service seeing as it is pretty much a waste of money!
|
Sounds good, but why not take advantage of the fact that it has paid for itself and run it a year or two longer, with the savings of £2K a year going towards your next car.
|
Because that would be far too sensible lol. This is the first time that I've kept a car for more than about a year, I usually get itchy feet very quickly!
To be honest, I'm so torn about what I want next that there's a good chance that I will wait a while whilst I await a decent car coming up for sale, pocketing the savings all along! The one positive thing is that my car must now be worth more than an equivalent model without LPG given that there isn't normally much demand for V6 Mondeos lol.
|
I am an LPG fan too. I had my XK8 converted and since then have managed to get the equivalent of around 40mpg compared to petrol. I get LPG for around 46p a litre from a local calor place at the moment. Its around 52p from most service stations.
It paid for itself in 10 months.
I doubt that the car will be worth more, maybe a couple of hundred quid but no more. Most wouldn't touch LPG with a bargepole but those that would touch them really know why it is worth the cost to convert.
I used to do around 3000 miles a year before converted but now it doesnt cost much more to run than my diesel Honda Accord.
Not bad for a 4.0 litre at all i would say!
|
|
any details on where LPG can be had from ' Calor ' places at 46p a litre ?
|
Can;t answer about the Calor places but my local service station is 46.9p, the ones that I use when in Manchester are also the same.
|
Yep, if you go to lpgmap then you can find numerous places around the country that sell lpg. I get mine from stoke on trent and bradford (my g/f lives there)
Also, look at autogas and find a local calor refueller near you too. Its often much cheaper than service stations but does vary from town to town. lpg here in crewe is 54.9 at morrisons but 49.9p in bradford at morrisons. 46.9p in manc as Blue says.
What size tank have you got blue?
|
Not sure of the official size, but I can squeeze about 55 litres into it from empty before the pump stops so I'm going to guess at 60 or 65 litres!
|
I think mine is an 80 litre, but can get around 60 odd ish litres in. It is noticably lower on power than V power though!
|
Yeah I can imagine it would be, seeing as I could never justify V Power in the first place though I'm quite happy that I don't know what I'm missing lol.
|
|
allow me to be cynical for a moment, say it works out cheaper to convert and this becomes a well known fact then how long do you presume the price of LPG will remain as low as it is now once converting becomes popular how will that affect the viabillity of the conversion cost on an older car ???
|
how long do you presume the price of LPG will remain as low as it is now once converting becomes popular
Not long you'd think, but hasn't it been around for quite a while now without becoming that popular? Or is it?
|
Its been economically cheaper for years but still isn't as popular as what it could or should be. My conversion has now been paid for so im at no loss. Just half price fuel bills at the moment.
You either take the gamble or you dont! Myself and Blue took the gamble and it has paid off on our current cars. Im not looking to change my car so as long as it is cheaper than petrol, I will be better off.
There's no guarantees in life except death and taxes.........
|
www.tinleytech.co.uk/index.html
to keep the instalation cost down fit the system yourself.
The registered installers might give you a certificate for their work but your insurance company will probably not want to see it.
|
|
|
