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Thread originally titled "Top Gear lash it up again"
Well done lads, nice work
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6281512.stm
Does anyone watching this learn anything from seeing a car driving across salt flats - no
Does it look nice on screen - almost certainly, yes
Is that alone worth the expense - no
Way past its sell by date.
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Seen it then have you?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Another TG repeat ;) Cheaper and easier than coming up with new ideas ;)
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>>..than coming up with new ideas...>
Right, come up with some...:-))
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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The good news is that it looks like there will be a new series then.
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Apparently the world is going to end in a couple of years because we dont have a low energy bulb in the outside light, so I personally am not to worried about what Clarkson does - if anything, he might teach those more ignorant about where Botswana is!
Must admit, I had no idea they had salt pans! See, its educational. He is a doctor afterall isnt he?
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Apparently the world is going to end in a couple of years because we dont have a low energy bulb in the outside light so I personally am not to worried about what Clarkson does - if anything he might teach those more ignorant about where Botswana is! Must admit I had no idea they had salt pans! See its educational. He is a doctor afterall isnt he?
I agree it's ridiculous - a salt-pan is essentially a desert - who cares whether it's got tyre-marks in it?! I'm sick of the anti-car lobby finding the most trivial link between a motoring programme and environmental "damage". When they drive on that vast sandy expanse (in Wales i think, i forget the name though!), I'm sure they've never had complaints about tyre-prints in the sand! A few tyre-prints in the desolate salt-pans of Botswana are the least of Africa's problems, and the petty fools who honestly see this as "damage" should open their eyes to the real problems out there.
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>in Wales i think, i forget the name though
Pendine sands.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Pendine sands.
That's the place, thanks TVM. Just googled it, and found why I haven't seen Clarkson power-sliding along the sands for a couple of years - apparently the MOD have banned vehicular access due to possible unexploded bombs! Maybe Botswana was the closest alternative they could find!
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I think the RAF still practise landing C130's on it tho..
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I can't believe people are complaining about damage to a salt plain! They need to get real, a salt plain is a worthless piece of land where nothing grows due to it effectively being poisoned by the large amount of salt. Does it really matter if a few tracks are made in the salt? I mean it's not like they dumped toxic waste there!
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I can't believe people are complaining about damage to a salt plain! They need to get real a salt plain is a worthless piece of land where nothing grows
Wrong. Lots of wildlife depends on the salt pans, notably birds but also giraffe and other game. In the US large areas of the Great Salt Plains are designated wildlife refuges. The problem with Clarkson is that he's not "just one guy" but will be followed by hundreds of fawning acolytes hoping to follow in the great man's tyre tracks. If the salt pans suffer widespread Clarksonning there will be an impact. The English Lake District is basically low yield land from a farming point of view. It's protected for a reason.
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From the same BBC story quoted above
"In 2004, the programme took a 4x4 vehicle up Ben Tongue mountain in Scotland, reportedly churning up heather and sensitive peat on the way..."
"The problem with Clarkson is that he's not "just one guy" but will be followed by hundreds of fawning acolytes..."
If you are right, then hundreds of fawning acolytes have driven up that mountain since 2004. I would have thought that would have made the papers in some way, but I don't recall seeing such a story. Does one exist?
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If you are right then hundreds of fawning acolytes have driven up that mountain since 2004. I would have thought that would have made the papers in some way but I don't recall seeing such a story. Does one exist?
It's not about the specific places so it doesn't impact on the tabloid consciousness; it's a widespread problem. I spend quite a bit of time in the mountains and there are certainly people who think it is a big laugh to drive across ecologically sensitive sites. Only a few weeks ago I watched a very shiny Mitsubishi Shogun (I think, it was a long way off) sinking up to its axles on the way up to Nine Standards Rigg. Fortunately because of the rain it hadn't got very far, but it was pretty clear what they were (illegally) attempting. NSR is a huge bog, so they had no chance anyway.
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refuges. The problem with Clarkson is that he's not "just one guy" but will be followed by hundreds of fawning acolytes hoping to follow in the great man's tyre tracks.
Two points.
1/ Its Botswana. Its not as tho its junc 23 of the M6, with a mcdonalds on the corner.
2/ Fawning acolytes? who the hell thought this one up? Clarkson is highly amusing, but deeply deeply uncool, I doubt he has one aco let alone a tribe of acolytes folowing him.
I havent heard so much hot air being spouted about something no-one has seen sinice Mary Whitehouse was at her peak.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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""The thing that worries me is the viewers and public that are going to go out to the lakes, and we will end up with every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes up, with vehicles and quad bikes, which will absolutely spoil the place."
Quick, dear - warm up the car and look out the fly repellant. We're going to Botswana.
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Can anyone tell me the best way of getting my car to Botswana. Or is there another salt plain nearer Stockport? Ta
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Can anyone tell me the best way of getting my car to Botswana. Or is there another salt plain nearer Stockport? Ta
There's some around Northwich...
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There's some around Northwich...
But they are a bit trick to get at, being underground, mostly.
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1/ Its Botswana. Its not as tho its junc 23 of the M6 with a mcdonalds on the corner. 2/ Fawning acolytes? I doubt he has one aco let alone a tribe of acolytes folowing him.
1) actually it is. Not that far from Johannesburg - that buzzing metropolis full of boy racers just looking for an excuse to wind their modified Beemers, Mercs, Hondas, VWs and Opels to the limit.
In an uncontrolled environment.
2) See 1) above.
I know thay had massive problems a few years ago at a place called Verneukpan - a former world record attempt site from the early days - with crowds of yobs turning up for weekends of un-coordinated impromptu "speed trials".
Damage done to those places DOES take decades to fix, especially as it rains every 25 years or so...
Add to that the yob factor of littering, noise, destroying what plantlife there is, driving over birds nests etc...
No, not a good idea, thnx.
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Seen it then have you?<<
Should I conclude from that choice of words that you think I have to have seen the episode to be able to have an opinion? How would watching a minute or two of heavily edited footage help me or you understand whether the comments of these environmental groups have any credence?
Given a choice between Clarkson who takes pride on being an environment vandal and someone trying to protect a fragile environment from damage by boys racing their toys, it's pretty clear who has more credibility.
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>> Seen it then have you?<< Should I conclude from that choice of words that you think I have to have seen the episode to be able to have an opinion?
Yes that is the general idea.
>>How would watching a minuteor two of heavily edited footage help me or you understand whether the comments of these environmental groups have any credence?
Perhaps it might be prudent so you can actually judge whats happened?
Given a choice between Clarkson who takes pride on being an environment vandal and someone trying to protect a fragile environment from damage by boys racing their toys it's pretty clear who has more credibility.
Untill you have the full story about exactly what has happened, then credibility on both side does not exist.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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And you are able to judge that this is all "hot air" on the basis of what exactly?
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Its hot air becuase no-one knows what its about YET or how bad it is YET, or what the film is about YET,
That makes it hot air, people getting on high horses about stuff they dont know about. YET
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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...and makes a lot more people want to watch it to be outraged...
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There's no such thing as bad publicity.
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Its hot air becuase no-one knows what its about YET or how bad it is YET or what the film is about YET
Quite, the media lie, twist, exaggerate, etc.
I was watching some Rick Stein programme a couple of days ago (think it was a repeat) and his dog killed a rabbit in someone's garden. Apparently this was reported at the time as him killing a *pet* rabbit (it was clearly a mangy wild rabbit), and then Stein cooking it, this story was totally twisted by the media....
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An interesteing debate... but in danger of turning into a name-calling and slanging match between the parties...
In a nutshell - I like motoring. I like motorsport, and I like motor cars.
I even, on occasion, like Jeremy Clarkson.
However, some people seem to be missing the point.
Driving on an environmentally sensitive area, just because you can, may make for good TV, but leaves a pretty nasty legacy.
I've seen the damage done to uncontrolled areas by every muppet who can afford a 4x4, and goes off on 'safari' - ie a booze-fuelled riot across the flats - as opposed to properly organised excursions which take silly things like ecosystems into account.
There will always be the kneejerk reactions from both sides, both the tree-huggers saying JC is going to kill the planet; and the petrolheads saying he is just having a bit of fun and this global warming is nothing really...
But to be 100% honest, I can't see JC et al travelling all the way to Botswana to talk about pretty plants and flowers and ecosystems - they were there to give it some "put-foot" across a vast salt pan, possibly damaging it.
Now, as explained, some of these places take decades - if not centuries - to recover.
And a place like the northern Botswana plain receives rainfall maybe every 25 years or so.
So whatever pranks JC got up to have blotted that landscape for a long time - and the last thing we need is a load of folk following after, causing even more damage.
Now - Devils Advocate - if JC is so keen to drive on salt pans, why didn't he go to the daddy of them all, Bonneville?
Could it possibly be that at Bonneville they have something called (gulp!) RULES and REGULATIONS, and JC/BBC/Top Gear don't really think they should have to abide by such trivialities?
So let's rather head off to to the wilds of Africa, where we can do what we darn well like, and nobody gives a monkeys, because, after all, it is 'only' Africa, and it is such a long long way away, isn't it?
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But do we know that damage has been caused? Is there any film of it? photos? even an impact assesment? Do we know that gazzillions of people will follow?
Too many dont knows to really go off on one. either way.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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You are naive to think that the programme will detail any damage caused or discuss any risk that their actions will give licence to others (who don't even have the BBC's reputation to think about) to follow suit.
Why do I think you are being naive? Because Clarkson takes pride in being cartoon buffoon: "There will be no tree, leaf, cloud, lawn, peat bog or environmental precious place that I won't drive over." What kind of balanced, informative view can you get from someone who comes out with this tripe for a bit of cheap publicity?
You must also be an expert in salt flats to think you'll be able to judge any damage from what gets screened post edit. Perhaps you are, in which case you can tell us why you think the concerns of groups dedicated to their preservation carry no greater weight than Clarkson who plainly couldn't give two hoots about them.
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I did not expect, nor did I say, the programe would discuss this issue. The point (which you blithely keep missing in your rage) is that you dont know whats happened either. You dont know the consequences, you dont know know the damage caused, or what will happen. In short you are not qualified or informed enough to jump on a bandwagon and bleat about it.
On the same point, I dont know either, but at least I am not jumping up and down blowing a red rage about something I know nothing about.
repectfully ;)
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Oh and we agree on one thing. *Clarkson is a motoring hooligan. Sometimes funny, mostly his attitude is frankly damaging to any future for enjoyable motoring. His writing are now, for the most part rambling tripe, full of complaints and whining from what appears to be a bitter and twisted man, or one upset about his fading youth.
*This could of course just be a trademark public persona, and deep at heart is is a really nice man. If it is a persona, its getting past its sell by date.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Google is your friend...
a tour guide, not working for the BBC, told The Sunday Telegraph that Clarkson's team had brushed him aside when he saw the vehicles being driven in a way that would cause lasting damage.
"They said they were making a big film for the BBC and ignored me," said the guide. "They had quad bikes and three cars and they were driving all over the place, making marks on the salt pans."
Ralph Bousfield, the owner of Uncharted Africa, a company that takes tourists on to the salt pans on quad bikes, said he was contacted by Clarkson's producers to assist with the programme. "We said we would do it if they met certain requirements to protect the environment and we never heard back from them," he said.
The BBC admitted that the crew had used cars and quad bikes and had not driven in single file. But a spokesman said that it was "debatable" whether single tracks were best for the salt pans and said the tracks made by Clarkson and his team would be "washed away when the first rains fall". *and as mentioned, the rains may fall there sosme time in the next 25 years. maybe*
and:
The show's presenters attempted to navigate through several difficult environments, such as the desert, salt pans and the delta, in an effort to see if a normal car can do the job of a 4x4 vehicle. Essentially, the show is about ?three ordinary guys having fun with cars,? Wilman said.
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I think this just epitomises the whole Top Gear philosophy - the laddishness, the who-gives-a-toss attitude, and the belief that because they are 'celebrities' they can do as they please.
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Well the answer is in your hands, and your fellow man. TG is made because it makes money. Its made by an independent company and sold to the BBC who in turn market it into South Africa. If it was not watched, the programe would stop. And so would the antics of the trio of boys.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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It's now time to stop this thread because it's going the way of the English disease of trying to regulate, police or stop virtually every activity,..
Including '..turgid, tree-hugging.. points of view on discussion fora?
The debate seems to cleave into 2 parts, the 'libertarian', i.e. whether people should have restrictions imposed on their 'harmless' activities & the scientific, i.e. has any real, lasting damage has been done by the ruts & general disturbance to the salt flats. Well, parhaps one part can't easily be disentangled from the other. If there's some debate about the level of damage caused (if any) , the libertarian debate must be effectively on hold until that is assessed - if there is signifigant or lasting damage, then the 'value' of the land/environment to both wildlife & the people of Botswana is reduced, a tort has been suffered. If not, the libertarian or moral debate is unfettered & a matter of social conscience.
To me, the prudent course would be (as the damage theory, if sustained, points to a long recuperation period) to err on the side of caution & say the 'damage' to the enjoyment of the TG team & viewers is less important than the potential damage to the environment.
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I suspect that the damage done to the environment by the Top Gear crew was much less than the damage done by the "save the planet" concert last weekend.
I would rather watch Top Gear than these save the planet/whale/polar bear/environment concerts any day.
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Let's hope the TG cars were undersealed! Anyway, enough about the salt pans as per HJ's request.
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