Can't think of a better title, sorry mods.
I'm so tempted to sell the Toledo and by myself a nice pre-72 classic. I bought the SEAT when I was commuting to Guildford every day.
I cycle to work most days now, and it's lunacy having a a car that is taxed, insured and MoT'd sat there still losing money for most days.
However I can't guarentee that I'll never need to commute that sort of distance again (Not mega miles I know, but 35 miles round trip was enough for me...have a friend that does 80 a day...madness!)
I have a hankering for a nice RWD V8 but I don't know how realistic this is!
So:
- Can a classic car still be reliable/comfy commuting tool these days? (Provided sensible driving taking into accounts its age is adopted)
- Can anyone recommend any cars from the ramblings above?
- Is classic insurance cheaper for someone my age (22) or still about the same?
- It is pre-72 that is tax exempt, right?
- Is the gummint likely to abolish this any time soon do you think?
Used to be very much into classics when I was 11/12...then lost interest...looks like it's making an appearance again!
Feel free to post up any other comments, its an 'anything goes' post really...
(slight edit to subject line - PU)
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Rover P6 - nothing else....other than a nice V8 Landie !
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Yes a classic can be reliable, far more so than when they were new even, if you do your research and learn about how to upgrade the car and fix any design faults for which there is almost certainly a fix by this time.
Buy a few classic car mags which have buying guides on various cars each month and familiarise yourelf with the market.
If you want an everyday classic, pre-72, I would suggest the Volvo 120 series and the smaller Mercs. These cars are renowned for being useable everyday classics and the Volvo is from an age when it was a rally star as opposed to antique dealers friend.
If your brave, have a look for something japanese - more effort goes into owning one due to parts situation but they can also be reliable if bought well.
Also look at american as parts can be very reasonably priced and freely available online, plus there is good support in the UK. Go for something with a smaller engine and they will still give reasonable economy.
Insurance will be cheaper but more due to limited mileage than its age.
Since your young, it will still not be ever so cheap, so try to stay away from anything with too higher grouping - use online insurance quotations to get an idea what your insurance budget gets you.
There are plenty in here who dont understand why anyone would want to give up the cushy feeling of a newish car, but do your reserach and you can silence the critics by choosing wisely and knowing what your buying.
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PU
I'd have thought that you, of all people, would have known that the Ser.III Stage 1 V8 109 didn't appear until '79.....
For a tax-exempt V8:
Rover 3500S [5-star 10.5CR engine until Oct '74 so it'll need octane booster.] Manual; good grip, if a bit too soft; great cruiser; stunning dash; ['71-on] lovely sound from it's unique exhaust. Must have Avon Radial T tyres on it.
Early Range Rover Classic; a mint example would be hard to find - but the proportions are dateless.
Mercedes 350SE Convertible? Impressively durable build quality and very advanced for it's time. Most parts still available from Mercedes Heritage.
Did the Stag appear early enough to be tax-exempt??
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"Did the Stag appear early enough to be tax-exempt?? "
Yes, it first appeared in 1970, and promptly broke down.
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Avant
Thanks for clearing that up. They did seem to have a natural affinity for riding on recovery vehicles - trailing a faint whiff of burnt anti-freeze.
I always wished that they'd get their many problems sorted, as I loved that shape and would have gladly bought one - if I thought that it stood even a small chance of actually getting to any destination.
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Yeah I've been looking at the 3500S...very much like the look of these!
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mss1tw
I bought [and insured!] a K-plate one when I was 19. It hated the long, hot, summer of '76 [no fuel return lines on these] but was just a lovely thing to drive.
You must get one with PAS: [and preferably A/C] it will have a full vinyl roof; [a 3500S identifier] and [if it hasn't been retro-fitted with Avon safety wheels or Denovos] it should have those glorious spoked-chrome wheel trims.
Driven hard it'll do about 20-22mpg and a good one will crack 125. Rust-traps are everywhere; but many were gentlemen's carriages and were properly cared for. Boot space is minimal; it only seats four; but when you sit there and blip the throttle and the whole car twists against the torque-reaction like a Boss Mustang - you'll forgive it anything.
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And the finest dash of any car I think i ever drove. The dials were a thing of beauty.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Great post Screwloose!
Can anyone recommend a classic insurance co. to try a quote from?
Admiral don't even go back as far as 1972!
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Boot space is minimal;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<< i remember there was room for at least two cadavers
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Get a P6 V8
I had one, used as a daily drive
Never let me down, as good to drive as any modern car
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Rover P6 - nothing else....other than a nice V8 Landie !
V8 only and auto' please......Not the 4 pot. My favourite car ever.
MD
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1972 DATSUN 240Z auto NEVER WELDED NO RUST OUTSTANDINGAutomatic, 136,000 miles, TAX EXEMPT. 1 Year Mot HPI Checked Superb Example, A Very Special Car, Detailed Engine Bay, Exellent Body and Mechanics, Matching Numbers. £7,990.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Nice one TVM, do you know if they did these with a manual box? Must've done...
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they did.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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sorry monty python moment
too silly--------- getting an old clonker from 35 years ago and expecting it to have turnkey reliability and increase in value is plain silly
they dont
it wont
you will curse
i went by an mg meeting this afternoon at sledmere house this afternoon it was raining and their cars were getting wet so when they got them home they needed molly coddling and their nipples preening (the cars)
For me to be interested in old cars its like looking at a beautiful woman in a shop window,you can look and drool but you sure dont want to take it home as the upkeep would surely break you............................aka .....swiss tony
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I don't mind upkeep as I generally tend to overkill looking after my cars anyway.
At least on this, it would be worth it!
And I could actually forgive a 30 year old car a leak or two. ;o)
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I would not get misty eyed over a 1970s car.
Firstsly rust proofing and painting was abysmal by today;s standrds so inner sills etc were often unpainted. If it has not had a 100% body rebuild with wax injection, it will need it (or be a potential death trap)
No power steering was common. If you want to look like Nadal (sp?), then go ahead.
Mant cars still had points:_(
If it was not made by Mercedes it will be a rust box. Made by Mercedes? It is a rust box.
Safety? What's that?
Security? What's that?
Fuel consumption? Abysmal.
Too much hassle for daily use unless carefully rebuilt and selectively upgraded: ignition , brakes etc...
but all imo.. (cos I drove them when they were current and up to 10 years old... never again)
madf
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Well im 23 & earlier this year i had a sudden urge of looking for a classic myself.
The Ford Cortina 1600E came to mind, i saw one going for £800 at the Enfield pagent but it had bits of rust underneath, but otherwise it looked pretty tidy.
But no i didn't buy it.
--
Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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you should of had a spin in it frazer,ideally on a road like the one from bradford to skipton (not the bypass) do this journey for one full week and you would be begging to be given a fiat 127
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Cortina 1600E is also an excellent car rust being the major issue, if you turn your engine off at traffic lights and listen carefully you can hear the rust bug munching through the chassis. Rust can be anywhere especially rear boot/chassis, sills, inner and outer wings
If very well rustproofed and sorted it's an excellent car. Steering is a bit of a pain as its an old fashion worm drive, if it has a dynamo convert it to an alternator- the dynamo regulator boxes are a problem. Convert the headlights to halogen units that replace the sealed beam units.
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>>1600ERust can be anywhere
I had new wings on mine at 10years old.
Rear suspension sagged due to rust.
>>Steering is a bit of a pain.
Especially when trying to park it.
Yes the steering box pulled the bolts off the chassis so that a reinforcing plate was required.
New steering box required due to fat wheels.
I fitted Cibie lights very early in its life and also added electric washers.
No HRW ( unless retro fitted one of only 200 made)
IMO the later version with the proper remote gearbox and smarter interior is the one to get.
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Interesting thought.
Rust is first major issue of any classic, although if you look VERY carefully you can find one that?s been beautifully restored by an enthusiast who has got bored with it and wants to restore another. You only ever get back a fraction of what is spent on restoration ? buy the very best you can find, an extra five hundred pounds could make a huge difference. If you do then buy a good one rust proof thoroughly (I restored a 1968 moggy minor in 1988 replacing much of the floor, chassis and wheel arches followed by a spray job and extensive rustproofing using new oil and waxoyl mixed - the only thing that has now rusted is the boot lid which was perfect at in 1988 so I ignored it)
Reliability is the next issue, to make an old classic reliable you will need to replace many of the oily bits or yet again buy a car that this has been done!
Any thing rubber will probably have to be replaced (brake & cooling hoses, brake/clutch seals driveshaft and suspension rubbers etc???) .
All mechanical (running gear, clutch , brakes, suspension etc..) parts need to be tip top or reconditioned.
Electrical bits need to be up to the job upgrading where required (Headlights, ignition, dynamo converted to alternator)
I constructed a kit car in 1990 using a reconditioned engine (Ford Pinto ? supplied by Ford ) and very good gearbox/axle. All brakes, bearing, suspension and steering parts were fitted with new parts. On putting it on the road I then did a very reliable 50,000 miles or so venturing into Europe three times (as far as Italy) the only issues being the exhaust system I had fabricated was rubbish (never use flexible joints ? fine after an exhaust centre made up a bespoke new system) , the fan belt bolt that also is part of the water pump attachment wasn?t tight enough and a faulty jaguar wiper switch(Ex XJ6) I.E. if you have a rust free old car with mainly new running parts you can make it reliable. Had to stop using it when my son was born in 1995.
The old Rover V8?s are good, rust and issue as are the horrible inboard rear brake callipers.
Old Volvos are excellent with very sturdy oily bits, rust can be an issue but most of the metal is very thick and very easy to put right.
My favourite day to day would be a rust free (the hard bit)K reg MkIII Cortina 2.0 (pre reg) Simple but relatively modern mecanicals (rack&pinion steering, alternator, excellent gearbox ? straight though in top, brake servo), it also has an excellent heater and is quiet. It?s also not too bad on fuel if fitted with a good progressive twin choke webber.
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good post big john, i especially like the last paragraph as the mk3 cortina was definately a big step forward with the rack and pinion steering and independant suspension although the back end let it down a little,cant remember them having good heaters though as i was always bleeding the things to get anything lukewarm out of them but what the heck they always sold dammed quick when advertised
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The Cortina MKIII heaters were one of the first split ones by Ford with the heater being under the bonnet and air distribution being inside the car. I wish some modern cars used this now!
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id love a late black capri 2.8
ideally with abs and air con :)
nice and new and perfect shiny
fantasy im afraid
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Capri 2.8 also some traction control and ESP......
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Capri 2.8 also some traction control and ESP......
WIMP
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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maybe but the matrix was much higher then the engine and in a glassfibre cocoon with long heater pipes and a piffling little water pump and a big lump of cast iron engine ;-o
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Rover P5B too
Daimler 250 (inspector morse shape) with V8
Triumph 2000/2500 Both sound great
I'll keep thinking! but that's what first came to mind
How about Roller! seriously cheap now (probably with good raeson!)
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I commuted (20 miles each way) with a Rover P6 V8 as a deliberate choice and apart from one failed fuel pump (easily sorted) it worked out well. I could get about 22mpg driving it sensibly and it was one of the best-handling cars I ever owned - put a permanent smile on my face.
Mine was a 1969 Three Thousand Five auto, which I think looks nicer than the later plasticky, vinyl roof models.
Stupidly, I succumbed to pressure to sell it to a friend when I moved to France five years ago. Wish I'd brought it with me...
Whatever you choose, just don't expect ultimate modern-day reliability but enjoy it for what it is - a bit of a challenge and the chance to be different.
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PS: I had a Daimler V8 too and before I bought the Rover for every day I commuted with that one too. Still a practical proposition now, I would have thought, and surprising fast and economical.
Wonderful for giving Mondeo man a crick in the neck because he couldn't take his eyes off it as he went tearing past.
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Spotted this in one of the classic car mags last week
www.moorfieldsv.co.uk
They have a Rover P5B Coupe with what sounds like Range Rover Overfinch running gear, including Chevy V8 & Air suspension 7 it's tax exempt!
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I had an uncle with a Rover P5B.
Very nice car.
BUT
They have zero traction: like wheels spin with the slightest throttle opening.. in ice and snow.
OK for fine days.. as a daily driver? Forget it in the winter..
madf
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"I'm so tempted to sell the Toledo"
Confuse everyone and buy a Triumph Toledo... :-)
A Dolomite would be nicer, though, assuming there are any left.
WRT rust, I do find it puzzling that while cars of that era are generally long gone, there are a few examples that seem to soldier on. The ones I've seen recently (HA and HB Vivas, a Mk.1 Cortina and a Ford Consul) are not obvious choices for extensive restoration work, and given that there are always a few old Minis about, it would appear that, just occasionally, one ends up more rust-resistant than the rest. Or perhaps their owners just have dry garages - I did meet a chap a while ago who had had his Morris Minor Traveller from new...
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By strange coincidence, I stumbled on this a few moments ago. I was actually reading about computer gear on an Australian blog...
www.longislandtriumph.org/New_York_Times_Online.htm
IIRC, a Miata is an MX-5
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I've always fancied a Jensen Interceptor. There's a couple on Autotrader at the moment that look good but I have no idea of realistic reliability and running costs... don't suppose fuel econnomy is for the faint hearted!
Reliant Scimitar is the other car not yet mentioned that springs to mind...
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Reliant Scimitar yes, if good. Even a new chassis is possible with one of them, and the oily bits are not hard to get.
Not only the fuel consumption but the handling of the Jensen is not for the faint-hearted.
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a friend of mine lent me his interceptor ff for a few months in mid 80's. great car but very good at producing brown trouser moments especially as i was 18, but surprisingly the insurace only wanted another 50 pounds for me to drive for 12 weeks.
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i had a good look at one of these jensons a few years ago
typical british build quality
lots of plates all wacked together for bulkheads inner wings etc
you could actually see it dissolving as you viewed it and this had just had a full recommission ie more plates wacked on it a bit of lead solder and probably great lumps of filler
As for the interior ,well it was like looking inside lady penelopies old six legger
truly appaling
no wonder we lost the war
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I have been keeping an eye on eBay for good Scimitar GTEs lately, but keep ruling out anything good I see as I can't justify another car now. Only a V6, not the OP's desired V8, but RWD and some have been retrofitted with a Rover V8.
There was what looked quite a peach a couple of weeks ago. A 1974 SE5a, so not tax exempt but with some of the big jobs for this model of car done. Many parts replaced at the 1991 restoration would probably not count for much by now, except this was given a galvanised chassis then. With the fibreglass bodywork, this was one example of a 70s classic where rust would not be a problem. The GRP can crack and craze, but this one had been resprayed a couple of years ago - soon enough to still look good, long enough ago to show it wasn't a bodge. The seller would have spent more than the final eBay price for that respray.
The £2,600 is at the upper end for a non-Middlebridge GTE on eBay. I wouldn't skimp on unkeep, bugeting enough for frequent servicing, repair and replacement parts, but depreciation should be low and much work should be DIY-able to keep costs down.
mss1tw - do you have any insurance quotes for any classics yet? It is just that many classic policies are only for the over 25s. I had good quotes from Performance Direct (not sure if they have an age limit for their classic policies) e.g. £160/£260 for said car above with 3k/5k pa, which is not bad IMO for a 28 year old with a group 18 car left on the street in outer London.
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Good post JamesH. You forgot to specify manual with overdrive though. Good car, everlasting with rather a lot of maintenance.
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Adrian Flux or Footman James for insurance. Had my Beetle with both and no complaints.
Mrs DB drives a 1970 Beetle (pink!) as her daily driver - we've got my Pug to fall back on if things go wrong, but on the whole it is reliable. Slow, noisy and handles like a pig, but reliable all the same. She's 27 and pays approx £300 a year on an agreed value policy that allows her to build no claims but is limited to 5000 miles pa. This is through Adrian Flux.
I've been toying with the idea of getting rid of the Pug and replacing with a VW Type 3 (Fastback).....
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"Mrs DB drives a 1970 Beetle ... on the whole it is reliable"
Which, of course, is why they went on selling. As a callow youth at the time, I used to echo the motoring pundits who banged on about how dated and awful they were, but now I appreciate the virtue of reliability rather more. Which is possibly why we have two Mazdas and a Suzuki...
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I tried this back in the early 90's with a completely rebuilt and refurbished Jag MKII 3.8 with modern "extras" such as air con and a Getrag 5 speed box, upgraded ancillaries, the whole lot to modernise it and allegedly make it useable for day to day driving. Huge and expensive mistake which I won't make again. Sound concept/dream but unreliable, lousy in town and ultra expensive to maintain.
My goal now is to pick up a leggy but decent Mondeo estate for 340 days of the year and something beginning with "Lotus" for weekends, blasts through Normandy and Brittany and one or two indulgent track days.
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NeilS wrote: I tried this back in the early 90's with a completely rebuilt and refurbished Jag MKII 3.8 with modern "extras" such as air con and a Getrag 5 speed box upgraded ancillaries the whole lot to modernise it and allegedly make it useable for day to day driving. Huge and expensive mistake which I won't make again. Sound concept/dream but unreliable lousy in town and ultra expensive to maintain.
I take it that the complete rebuilding and refurbishing wasn't as complete as it could have been? That the upgraded ancillaries didn't include power steering?
It sounds very nice to me. Why would it have been expensive to maintain? What was the cause of the unreliability, given the rebuilding process?
I had one of those for some years, not rebuilt and upgraded, but not particularly unreliable or expensive to maintain. Didn't have power steering so the wife hated it, and I sold it. It would be worth rather more now than the car that I bought to replace it.
Which was, my 1984 Jaguar XJ12, which I'm temporarily using for daily transport, and it's fairly reliable and inexpensive to maintain too. It's somewhat more complicated than the Mk2, but much more civilised too, and is no trouble in town. Disclaimer 1: This is in New Zealand where there is more room to move, even in the city. Disclaimer 2: I am a Jaguar enthusiast, and do all my own maintenance and repairs.
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The Rover 3500S was a lovely motor - my old man had one, but they did have their problems. The clutch was fairly heavy with a sharp bite and any gearchange needed a slight but definite pause in neutral to be smooth.
The Mk3 Cortina was also a decent car in it's time - I had a South African 3000GT and absolutely loved it, but who the hell would want one now?
Both of them have limited appeal - the only potential buyers would be sentimental old gits like myself wanting to re-live their youth.
For a pre-73 classic, first priority has to be parts availability. If Google can't get you a complete new set of door/window rubbers or a new front wing at a reasonable price - forget it. Depending on budget, my choice would be a British or American 'sports' car or sports saloon - Mustang/Corvette/Camaro or an MG, Spridget, TR, Series 1 XJ etc. There are plenty of aftermarket parts and upgrades available to make them almost as reliable as your average Eurobox and plenty of international owners clubs for advice.
The biggest advantage is that if you do break down, you can usually fix them with a fag packet, duct tape and a Swiss Army knife.
You also need a garage, even a waxoyled, resprayed, polished to perfection pre-73 car will rot if it's left outside without daily use.
Kevin...
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How about an MG BGT V8? All the advantages of MG ownership (cheap, plentiful spares; good support from OC; cheap insurance) with the V8 driving experience.
Best sources of info are magazines like Practical Classics (my preference)- price guides, lots of adverts for ins co's, dealers etc. For MG stuff, the owners club website is very useful (just put MGOC into google).
Classics can be vey rewarding to own and run, but do need extra looking after (you do seem prepared for this!). Personally, I love them, as they have so much more character. I was in a similar position to you- changed job from one that required a commute from Kent into Essex, to one where I am now training up to London. Sold my Leon Cupra, bought an MG BGT! This was my only car for a year. I am actually selling it at the moment (got married, moved to a house that needs work, all cash needed)- although not a V8, she's in great condition, 1971 tartan red- do let me know if you want more info.
Most of all, enjoy!
HTH,
Alex.
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Dr Alex Mears
MG BGT 1971
Volvo 940S estate 1993
Maxda MX5 1.8iS 1997
Yamaha RD350 YPVS 1992
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That would tempt me I would have to say.
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Pete M - the rebuild was to an extremely high standard, carried out by a leading restoration company. It had PAS and perhaps too much electrics because most problems were electrical and the car didn't like spending time in towns often overheating. Open road, speed, fantastic. We moved to Devon, put the MKII in store, used the fully loaded cheap as chips Scorpio as day to day transport and the field mice destroyed the leather so decided that I could never happily run the Jag - if you can't use it, what's the point? Met a bloke on holiday on a beach who used to race BMWs and had a fledgling dealership business, talked about cars quite a lot, told him about mine and he bought it to stick in his showroom for customer flow. Big, big financial loss, lesson learned.
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