Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Bill Payer
Just wondered if anyone has tried both the above?

I would have expected a 3 cyl engine, with 120 degree spacing around the crankshaft to be be pretty smooth, however we have a Seat Ibiza with the VW 1.2 3 cyl engine, and while it revs well and is good on the move, it's horrible and shuddery around town - like it's got an engine mount missing!

I drove a 4cyl engined Ibiza recently and it felt soooo much better.

What's the 3 cyl Toyota like?
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Westpig
Bill Payer,

Trust me, you need to double the cylinders
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - 659FBE
Not the place for a detailed analysis but, westpig, you are spot on.

A 3 cylinder engine is only balanced if it is a 2 stroke and fires on each piston downstroke. A fully balanced 4 stroke has to have a multiple of 6 cylinders, either inline or as a flat horizontally opposed engine as used by Porsche.

A V12 is therefore perfectly balanced, but any V6 is not. Oddballs such as 4 stroke 3s and 5s are inherently unbalanced.

The Bosch Automotive Handbook (possibly the best automotive technical databook ever produced) has quite a good analysis, with formulae for assessing the primary and secondary imbalance forces for most common engine configurations.

659.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Bill Payer
Ah - OK. So ingoring V12's and getting back to the realms of everyday motoring, which would be more unbalanced, a 4 stroke 3 cyl or 4cyl?

And, the original question - what's the Toyota 3 cyl engine like in everyday use?
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Happy Blue!
Just digressing slightly...

My Outback has a nice flat 6-cyl and its very smoooooth.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - daveyjp
After 500 miles in an Aygo 3 cylinder it seems to be very smooth once warmed up, it's a bit rattly when cold. I had an A2 diesel which was also smooth on tickover once warm and our smart was the same. Thinking of it our household has had almost as many three cylinder cars as four!
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - cheddar
The balance of a V engine is also dependent on the V angle, in theory 180 deg is best, i.e. flat though on a 12 cyl a V angle as narrow as 30 deg deg makes sense.

I agree re a 3 cyl 4 stroke not being ideal though there have been many such bike engines, the latest Triumphs are nice and crisp, smooth at higher revs though more lumpy than a four at lower revs.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Number_Cruncher
A 3 cylinder engine (either 2 or 4 stroke) will always have an imbalanced primary and secondary pitching moment. The primary pitching moment can be reduced by putting appropriate balance weights on the crank, while for the secondary, balance shaft(s) running at twice crank speed would be required to reduce the vibration.

4 cylinder 4 stroke engines have a secondary force imbalance - they have primary force balance as 2 pistons are going down as 2 come up, but as the piston speeds coming up don't exactly balance the piston speeds coming down, there is a secondary imbalance force, i.e., a force at twice crank speed. As the rear two cylinders are a mirror images of the front two, there are no pitching moments, primary or secondary. (i.e. any pitching moment generated by cylinder 2 is cancelled by cylinder 3, likewise cylinders 1 and 4)

All straight 6 engines are perfectly balanced - by putting two three cylinder engines back to back, you effectively cancel the unbalanced pitching moments I mentioned above. Therefore, with a V12, you can have any angle you want between the banks (assuming you can physically make an appropriate crank!) because each bank is perfectly balanced in itself.

I agree with 659 in his endorsement of the Bosch handbook, but, by far the best way to get to an understanding of the subject is to do the sums yourself.

Aside from the issue of balance, there is also the question of firing interval. The three cylinder 4 stroke engine has a firing interval of 240 degrees, which, at low engine speeds is going to feel rough. Typically, these engines are fitted with a very heavy flywheel to counter this low speed roughness. This heavy flywheel can make the engines very reluctant to change speed rapidly, making gear changes slower, and acceleration in the lower gears much more sluggish.

Number_Cruncher
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - tr7v8
Wife used to have a Suzuki Swift with the 3 pot 998cc lump. The reason is its 3 cylinder is that is the optimum cylinder size for fuel efficiency & torque.
It used to be quite gruff but went like hell & was Very economical, it used to do an easy 48mpg despite cruising at 70+ on the motorway.
She also had the Toyota thing on loan whilst her Corolla was in & we both hated it, lumpy, didn't go. So not all 3 pots are the same.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - oilrag
Like a three legged horse, there is more pitching at low speeds but if you can get up to a trot its more tolerable.



Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Bill Payer
Like a three legged horse, there is more pitching at low speeds but if you can get up to a trot its
more tolerable.

That's a very good decription of what the VW 3 cyl is like, at least as installed in our Seat Ibiza.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - lordwoody
We've had an Aygo for 2 months now and I can't say I've noticed any particular roughness with the engine. It does have a slightly unusual note to it but after 2 months you don't notice it anymore. We're very pleased overall.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - PeterRed
I had a test drive in a new 1 litre Colt recently which is also a triple. I thought it had more than a hint of a six cylinder engine about it. Obviously it didn't perform like one and was pretty noisy but it definitely made an interesting noise. It wasn't at all harsh or rattly.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - boxsterboy
I drove a C1 and found it to be not quite as smooth as my Smart Brabus, but still with character and a willingness to it that most 3-pots seem to have. The Smart engine is very smooth right up to the red line but really benefits from Shell V-power.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - bimmer-driver
My Ibizas got the 1.2 triple engine in and I like it. Yes, there are a few vibes when its idling, but when its up and going its extremely smooth and will scream round to the rev limiter all day long while still returning 45 mpg. Its also got surprising pull in the mid range, between 2500 rpm and 3500 rpm, although after 4500 rpm it tails off quite a bit, a bit like a diesel. Mines also got the rev limiter set quite low for a petrol, at 5250 rpm. I don't care though because it sounds like a Porsche when its revved!
Not as many vibes as Vauxhalls triple though which really shakes the car at idle.

Ben
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - ffidrac {P}
What's the 3 cyl Toyota like?


my 1.0 3 cyl Yaris is OK round town, smooth when warm
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - SjB {P}
>>like it's got an engine mount missing!

Just like the three cylinder Corsa loaner I had when a previous car I normally drove was in for service.
At idle, I thought a dump truck engine had been fitted, and moving off idle and on to load, the "thrum" that went through the bodyshell and caused the entire dashboard to visibly vibrate smacked of the worst kind of automotive design. (No, I am not GM or Vauxhall knocking - the car in for service was a superbly reliable Vectra V6 GSi Estate that as well as looking great was super fun to drive and easy to live with)
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - mss1tw
What's the point of 3 cyl engine then? Most small 4 pots can do high 40 mpg.
Toyota 3cyl vs VW/Seat 3cyl - Lud
Something to do with volumetric efficiency of cylinders a certain size, with cubic capacity a certain size to exploit some tax law... In principle they should give more bang per cc of fuel or something. Evidently sometimes works, sometimes doesn't... NC and Aprilia, where are you?