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Went to a salvage auction a little while ago (I was after a specific Jap car for parts). I was absolutely amazed at the number of Russians, Albanians etc there! They were after the lightly damaged and S/R cars. Four youngish guys in black leather jackets (looked like Russian Mafia to me - but probably just 'chancers' - I don't really know what Mafia look like) bought a very tatty early Lexus LS400 with smashed lights and front bumper damage. After much messing about, kicking at the damage, and (presumably) a jump start they roared off in it...
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Why some charges ignored?
Driving licence - May well be that he claimed he had a domestic licence from whence he came from. Allowed a year as a new resident to drive on that.
MOT - may well have only been a short time out.
CPS only go for the certainties and also bear in mind what is the point of loading the charge sheet against a bloke who can only pay so much. The old days if we had a bloke with 5 - 8 offences, pick the most serious say 4 and caution the others.
Mgs have an idea on what an offender can pay. Instead of each charge attracting a small paltry sum, the reduced sheet attracted stiff fines to act as a deterent.
dvd
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Essentially the Mags will sentence on the most serious offence, probably two, and sentence based on the seriousness of the offence(s) and the circumstances, including whether any other offences were committed at the same time.
More than likely this means that the MoT and driving licence issues attracted no separate penalty, although equally if the Defendant claimed to have a domestic licence the CPS may well have withdrawn rather than seeking an adjournment and taking up more Court time when it's likely that no separate penalty would be imposed, given the other offences.
Of course "no separate penalty" does count as a conviction for insurance, etc., purposes, should the Defendant ever bother getting any in the next five years.
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Imprisoning people like this probabbly won't help, but the thing that surprises me about these cases is the absence of other non-custodial punishments.
I read the court reports in my local paper a few weeks ago, and was horrified to see a whole string of no-licence-MoT-tax-insurance cases, all involving a fine around the £100-£300 mark and nothing else. Maybe the fines are all they can pay, but the overall punishment does not reflect the severity of the offences.
The only thing I'm unclear on is whether the ones I saw reported were all first offences. I can see a case for a severe warning at that stage, but not for subsequent offences.
What really worries me, though, is that I suspect that this sort of problem is only going to get worse. As jobs become ever more "flexible" (i.e. short-term and insecure), more and more people are forced to travel longer distances to work.
Outside of London, bus services are often pathetic while fares are sky-rocketing: the cost of a peak-time bus fare from my home to town has tripled in 8 years.
Even without considering cost, a lot of relatively short journeys are now unviable for commuters using public transport. It shouldn't surprise us at all that there is a steady stream of low-income people prepared to run the risk of being caught in an illegal vehicle.
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As MLC states the seizing of the vehicle for no insurance is the ultimate punishment. Its instant and there is no argument. Its been a long time coming but is an effective tool.
Fullchat
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As MLC states the seizing of the vehicle for no insurance is the ultimate punishment. Its instant and there is no argument. Its been a long time coming but is an effective tool.
I wish it was effective, but are you sure?
I suspect that crushing will impact most on the people who would like to be legal, and have a car which they can't afford to treat as disposable, but are having difficulty paying the thousand-pound plus that will asked of a new(ish) driver in a high-risk postcode.
If someone was planning to drive without insurance/tax etc, they could just buy an old banger for a hundred or two. If it's crushed, the loss is still a lot less than the cost of making a car legal. (That seems to be what Aprilia reckoned may be happening with people he saw at auction). I don't think that crushing makes that sort of strategy unviable.
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The UK has become a global 'beacon' for general scum, criminals and those who don't give a hoot about the law for the reasons listed in the original post.
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NoWheels. Trust me it's very effective. Siezed a Transit the other night that had three travelling folk out up to no good, doing circuits of an industrial estate.
They were non too happy I an tell you.
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NoWheels. Trust me it's very effective. Siezed a Transit the other night that had three travelling folk out up to no good, doing circuits of an industrial estate.
eek! Well done, but I hope you had back-up while doing that.
They were non too happy I an tell you.
I'm sure they weren't ... but what lesson do you think they will learn?
I'd like to think it would be to go legit next time, but I fear it might be to just buy a disposable vehicle :( I hope I'm wrong!
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So if they were prepared to be "upto no good," will they think twice about stealing replacement transport. I think not.
So the effect is a potential breaking and entering deferred, one vehicle crushed, a vehicle stolen that otherwise would have remained with its owner, and the three travelling folk now equipped with a newer and better means of transport! The " no good " will be done on a later occasion, as they had a need for funds that will still have to be met. They will be even less likely to buy insurance as they have less money and now have a vehicle with a difficult provenance.
Presumably the recorded crime rate goes up, but the detection rate gets better.
So who is better off? The motor industry has to build a new vehicle and insurance premiums rise, for those who bother with insurance.
Sorry to be cynical, but is this the best answer in this case?
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pmh (was peter)
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So if they were prepared to be "upto no good," will they think twice about stealing replacement transport. I think not.
Oh well! We'd better all give up then. It's having the desired effect, you'll just have to take my word for it. The locals are also very pleased because we've been seizing those incredibly annoying mini-motos.
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mlc - No please dont give up! I understand that this legislation has given you a useful tool 'on the ground'.
But from your experience do my comments and questions have any real practical implications? Will they actually go out and buy a replacement van, where will the money come from? Or do they see the light?
I wish the French police / legisalators would take a leaf re small motor bikes used by underage and young kids. This area is plagued by them. However I believe it is all part of a grand plan of reducing road deaths and reducing teenage pregnancy in the future.
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pmh (was peter)
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The UK has become a global 'beacon' for general scum, criminals and those who don't give a hoot about the law for the reasons listed in the original post.
I live in a fairly rural area with relatively poor public transport. In recent years a lot of the local employers have brought in people from Eastern Europe, the Balkans and so on, as cheap labour - most earn minimum wage (or less!). There is a guy lives not far from me (in a very grand house) who is an agent bringing in Romanians - he brings hoards in; he told me that he gets contracts for them to work on the railways, re-laying tracks etc., and in food production. These people want to travel and with old cars being so cheap they can club together and get a banger for a few hundred. They don't bother enquiring as to traffic regulations etc etc. Remember that in some of the East European countries things like motor insurance are the exception rather than the rule. Probably the worst that can happen if they caught is that they get sent back home - then they just contact another agent and come back again.
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Aprilia's humane post underlines the fact that this country is a magnet for poor east Europeans desperate to make a few quid, something that may be next to impossible at home. Naturally some of them are scum and criminals, hardly welcome since we have so many of our own, but most surely are relatively innocent work-seekers willing to do jobs the British don't want, or accept the sort of wages employers want to pay?
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Aprilia's humane post underlines the fact that this country is a magnet for poor east Europeans desperate to make a few quid, something that may be next to impossible at home. Naturally some of them are scum and criminals, hardly welcome since we have so many of our own, but most surely are relatively innocent work-seekers willing to do jobs the British don't want, or accept the sort of wages employers want to pay?
Too right. We accuse them of 'flooding' here. I have a cousin who's a doctor and she recently visited south west Poland on some kind of 'exchange' scheme. She told me that the newspapers over there are full of ads from British companies and agents asking for Poles to come to the UK. The wages look good at their end, but of course when they get to the UK they find out how much it costs to live here......
BTW - did anyone see that TV programme the other week with the fat chap from the CBI (blond curly hair - is it Digby Jones?) - he was saying how much "better value" East Europeans are as workers. I bet! Interesting that Germany has put a 7-year embargo on East Europeans working in their economy.
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Given that most kids in the uk are being pushed into university and none are becoming brickies, plumbers, chippies and sparks, its little wonder that the construction industry is scouring eastern europe for skilled workers.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Given that most kids in the uk are being pushed into university and none are becoming brickies, plumbers, chippies and sparks, its little wonder that the construction industry is scouring eastern europe for skilled workers.
Not true. Most kids are *not* going to university (HE participation is under 50%). Lots are trying to become plumbers and carpenters etc - local college plumbing course is full and they can't find any more teachers (teaching plumbing pays a lot lot less then actually doing it!).
Most of the East Europeans coming into my neck of the woods don't seem to be skilled - they are being used to do labouring, working in care homes, hotels and food production etc etc. Just like Indian, Pakistani immigrants in the past.
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They may not be skilled Aprilia but I bet they are educated. What they want is opportunity. My wife has a masters degree in business, she was working in a pizza bar on Great Portland Street when I met her, ditto all her friends. When I worked in W1, my studio was cleaned by Poles, breakfast and lunch prepared and served by Poles, bar staff were Polish etc etc etc, poverty wages, no rights, no holidays blah blah, you know where I?m going with this. I can?t be bothered getting defensive anymore and it?s not motor related (or interesting) but your comment about motor insurance being the exception rather than the norm. Not sure how accurate that is, certainly here the exact opposite is true, everybody has a holographic sticker in the window to show they have insurance. You can?t dodge it, you drive with all the papers that make you legal and an i.d. card that ties you to an address. If you?re pulled and something isn?t in order, you won?t be able to give the copper a bit of lip and a false address then drive off. Not here.
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Totally agree with you BBD re education etc. I'm not attacking Polish people or anything, in fact quite the reverse! I did some work in Poland and found the people to be great - ditto those I've met in the UK.
The comment about insurance was derived from an experience I had in Lithuania. I was being driven to the airport at great speed on an icy road. I made a comment to my Lithuanian engineer contact (who was driving the car) about 'hoping that he'd got good insurance'. He responded that he didn't have any motor insurance, and nor did most other people in his country!
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The comment about insurance was derived from an experience I had in Lithuania. I was being driven to the airport at great speed on an icy road. I made a comment to my Lithuanian engineer contact (who was driving the car) about 'hoping that he'd got good insurance'. He responded that he didn't have any motor insurance, and nor did most other people in his country!
RE: insurance - insurance was definitely not compulsory in the USSR, and was very hard to obtain. Lithuania of course was a part of USSR until 1990/91, so it's possible that they haven't got around to changing the rules, if they are minded to do so.
As regards people "flooding" here, we as a country can't get enough, after all London would grind to a halt if "they" all went home.
As for OP, it seems that the miscreant got the same treatment as an UK citizen would have done. Because he's foreign, some people seem to think it's ok to highlight it and extrapolate his behavour to all those of his ilk. And in my book, that's bordering on discrimation and racism.
A comment like "The UK has become a global 'beacon' for general scum, criminals and those who don't give a hoot about the law for the reasons listed in the original post." is less than helpful. Does IL really think that there are no home grown general scum, criminals or people who don't give a hoot about the law". Do they all come from abroad? There's a number of people on this board who consider fine to exceed the speed limit on a regular basis and treat that particular law with comtempt, do we lump them in with the general scum, native or not?
Must go and lie down.....
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I?m sorry Aprilia, my post reads like I was having a go, absolutely not my intention just badly composed (between mouthfuls of curry). I could see exactly were you were coming from by your previous posting.
Feel free to attack Poles, the blokes I work with certainly lay into me, I get an unbelievable amount of abuse (I?m Dave the English Slave). They?re thick-skinned and can?t be doing with any of our politically correct nonsense.
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They may not be skilled Aprilia but I bet they are educated. What they want is opportunity.
You can say that again. A cousin of my wife, a farmer, had a Pole working for him one year, living in a caravan, could do anything - lay parquet floors, drive tractors, anything - and did, for the sort of wages farmers pay people like that. Some kind of academic and a chess national Grand Master, if I've got that right. Wanted to buy a decent secondhand Sierra and go back home. Best chess player I know is a county-class old Etonian, always beats everyone. One Notting Hill carnival, while mainly smoking dope and looking out of the window, this Pole beat him soundly three times in about 20 minutes. He was shaken, but very pleased.
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I was doing some work on computer room in the bowels of a still to be completed building in central London.
70% of the "trades" were Poles.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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And now back to motoring discussion please.
DD.
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Crushing cars still impacts more than trying to fine those of no fixed adress who cannot aford fines and will mearly move on. A crushed car is £200 that the crooks will have to find again.
I recently did a call out at a local factory, 60% were poles. On talking to the foreman He told me that they are now trying to reduce numbers due to the fact that the workers ( suplied via agency) spoke v poor english ignored h and s rules.
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