***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 21 *****
(This thread was originally entitled 'Porn and Propeganda' which did not describe it accurately and since the last Top Gear Thread already had 98 postings I sarted a new one. HJ)
Most of us must envy aspects of Jeremy Clarkson's life and many will concede that he is an amusing chap who can probably drive quite well. Why, though, when driving the Bugatti Veyron recently, did he allow those repeated shots of the 'power dial' on the car's facia with the needle slamming into the stop at 1,000hp? Extremely naff in my opinion. More seriously, in the last item of the last number of Top Gear he seemed to be saying that it was easier to drive a virtual car on screen than a real one on a circuit. His argument seemed to be that all the g-forces were offputting, when we all know that without them, and with a couple of sticky plastic buttons instead of a steering wheel, we are in the scenery immediately, running over pedestrians and being pursued by virtual police cars prior to being dragged out of our wrecked car and quite rightly shot dead on the spot. That's what happens to me when I play Grand Theft Auto anyway.
Mr Clarkson seemed, it is true, not entirely convinced himself. But he said it anyway, a bit of script clearly written by someone else, intended to discourage people from trying to go fast in reality. Naff again, and wasted breath, surely?
Jack the Lud
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why do they have a shot of a carrot or some other root vegetable during his car sojourns is my question?
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>>But he said it anyway, a bit of script clearly written by someone else,>>
Highly unlikely...
In fact, definitely not.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Oh all right, he might have written it himself. But he did somehow make it clear that his heart, or part of his brain, or anyway his pancreas or something, wasn't entirely in it. Do these presenter chaps have total artistic control? Surely not always. HJ removed my original title, 'Porn and propaganda'. He's the boss, but to me the veyron is porn and this 'computers are better than cars because you won't be distracted by all kinds of awful rough g forces' stuff is propaganda. Young Clarkson (for he is young to many of us) can't possibly mean it.
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.. and this 'computersare better than cars because you won't be distracted by all kinds of awful rough g forces' stuff is propaganda. Young Clarkson (for he is young to many of us) can't possibly mean it.
That wasn't the way I heard it. I heard JC saying something like "I can't drive the real NSX as fast because of fear - which is totally absent when playing on the Playstation."
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>>"I can't drive the real NSX as fast because of fear - which is totally absent when playing on the Playstation.">>
There is absolutely no substitute for the real thing - games consoles may entertain, but proper hands-on can't be beaten.
I got the feeling that JC, for once, felt out of his depth.
I also recall he wrote, in one of his marvellously funny books, that it took him a very long time to get the hang of power slides.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Lud, I am sure that the shot (repeated) of the Veyron power gauge flying up to 1001 BHP was a bit of computer trickery. It didn´t look real at all. Bit of Star Wars - style magic.
I thought the Bugatti segment was entertaining, if a bit contrived - bit like every TG show. Wouldn´t miss it though.
Guten Rütsch one and all!
(happy new year equivalent in German)
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Always remember that JC first and foremost is an entertainer - not a provider of balanced motoring information for the masses.
Oz (as was)
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Why do you think the image of the power indicator pointless? I wish they'd showed an image of the speedometer though to see how fast he was really going!
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That wasn't the way I heard it. I heard JC saying something like "I can't drive the real NSX as fast because of fear - which is totally absent when playing on the Playstation."
Judging by the way the real NSX seemed to handle in the piece, in what are by most standards experienced hands, any fear felt is more than understandable. However in my experience the handling of virtual cars is infinitely worse than anything the real world has to offer.
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I read in yesterday's paper that Mansell hired a plane to video the Top Gear's track so that he could study the track before taking up the challenge of posting the fastest lap (of 1m 44.6secs). Something he was renound for doing back in his F1 days apparantly.
Can't find anything on-line to back up the newspapers story though.
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Don't blame him for that....
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DD what you mean is you read it in The Sun like me, but don't want to admit it!!
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DD what you mean is you read it in The Sun like me, but don't want to admit it!!
Damn! I've been rumbled.
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Found a link, but not sure how long it will be valid as The Sun used to charge to view some of their archived records.
www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005600634,00.html (link deliberately made non clickable)
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Was that so he could work out which bits of grass he could drive over? I still think Weber's wet time is the most impressive, especially as he didnt go off the track like so many others have.
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Does anyone know how the sales figures for the Suzuki Liana have been affected by the programme?
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I thought part of the reason why he couldn't lap Laguna Seca as fast in the real car was the PlayStation car had better brakes and probably better tyres as it was always going faster through most corners?
The fear factor is important as he mentioned too, if you stuff a PlayStation car into the kitty litter and crash barrier at 100mph it's no big problem (even if it's the lovingly modified E-Type I've got in Gran Turismo!) Do the same thing in real life and at the very least you've ruined your afternoon's racing!
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Probably wouldn't have been as "entertaining" but a more scientific test to have been to task the Stig to do this one.
Anybody else notice that JC has a large bald patch ? Which raises another question - why wasn't he wearing a racing helmet ?
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Does anyone know how the sales figures for the Suzuki Liana have been affected by the programme?
apparently if you're trying to sell a silver one with dents and bald tires, second hand, low mileage, nobody is interested
Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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>> Does anyone know how the sales figures for the Suzuki Liana >> have been affected by the programme? >> apparently if you're trying to sell a silver one with dents and bald tires, second hand, low mileage, nobody is interested
That's the 3 wheeler version.
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I think the salesman had a coldsore he wouldn't take his helmet off.
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Did anyone else find it strange that JC was trying to drive a supercar round Laguna Seca as fast as he possibly could but was not wearing a helmet? He was plainly driving "on the edge", or at least we were supposed to think so. I can't imagine that would be permitted here, let alone in in the US.
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Did anyone else find it strange that JC was trying to drive a supercar round Laguna Seca as fast as he possibly could but was not wearing a helmet? He was plainly driving "on the edge", or at least we were supposed to think so. I can't imagine that would be permitted here, let alone in in the US.
A 'supercar'? A middle-class mid-engined Japanese tourer, surely, in American spec judging by its handling.
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>>A middle-class mid-engined Japanese tourer, surely, in American spec judging by its handling.>>
IIRC Ayton Senna played a very big role in its setup and development - I also seem to recall Autocar having a full length feature on the matter at the time when Ayton explained his involvement and demonstrated the NSX's capabilities (he wasn't dawdling either).
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IIRC Ayton Senna played a very big role in its setup and development - I also seem to recall Autocar having a full length feature on the matter at the time when Ayton explained his involvement and demonstrated the NSX's capabilities (he wasn't dawdling either).
Obviously better than it looks, then. Two things, though: the prototype as perfected after Ayrton Senna's input may well have been fairly different from the production version; and examples of many sporting models sold in the US are slower, softer and worse handling than those sold in Europe, or used to be, for a combination of legal and consumer-preference reasons.
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Be that as it may (and I suspect that you are incorrect) the star in the reasonably priced car has to wear a helmet, yet JC in a car capable of over 160mph does not. Strange.
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Be that as it may (and I suspect that you are incorrect) the star in the reasonably priced car has to wear a helmet, yet JC in a car capable of over 160mph does not. Strange.
Yeah. But racers used to wear leather helmets and no seat belt, and lots of people go quite quickly on the road without helmets. Perhaps it is peculiar from the nannylegal* point of view, but it stands rather to JC's credit than otherwise.
* This is not a dig at lawman but at the modern world.
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Did anyone else find it strange that JC was trying to drive a supercar round Laguna Seca as fast as he possibly could but was not wearing a helmet? He was plainly driving "on the edge", or at least we were supposed to think so. I can't imagine that would be permitted here, let alone in in the US.
It is legal in many States in the USA for motorbike riders to ride without a helmet.
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Craig Brown can be very very funny, but his Diary series in Private Eye often stretches him a bit thin. Today's effort on Jeremy Clarkson is not one of the best. The poor man is accused of liking a pint, or rather 'a dozen pints with brandy chasers', and of smoking cigarettes. Almost makes me feel sorry for him, and I shudder to think how HJ is going to react. And does Craig Brown really not know how to spell Maserati and really think 105mph is fast? Or is he just trying to annoy us?
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I've just got to CD 11 in the Blue Guitars album and track 8 is titled "Clarkson Blues". Nice one Chris.
Oh I?m calling out
To the king of wheels
I gotta let him know
The way I feel
Every car all shiny and new
You sell your own mother
For that what that big guy?d do
Yeah you would
Gotta give me some money
For these car-less shoes
Standing at the bus stop
With a Clarkson blues
Every kind of motor
Has ever been made
Driven to destruction
Each and every day
P. Zeros
Melt em? down
Sure beat everybody to the best job in town
I got to get me some money for these car-less shoes
Standing at the bus stop
With a Clarkson blues, yeah
I got the Clarkson blues
Clarkson blues
Out on the track
Bust ?em up and send ?em back
Clarkson blues
Crash for free
Clarkson blues
We all want to be
Engineer
He live in fear
Bossman tell him
That the big man?s here
Hear that moto engine scream
Big boy living out our dream
I?m just some punk
With worn out shoes
Standing at the bus stop
With the Clarkson blues
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Just heard Dale Winton being interviewed on the wireless by Jonathan Woss. Apparently Dale's ultimate gig would be to present a motoring programme, and went on to say he knows more about cars than most people. Woss asked him if he could change a spark plug - Dale had to set him straight - 'we don't have spark plugs any more - replaced by fuel injection'. Some other chatterer on the show volunteered that his 1965 Morris Minor has spark plugs. 'Is it a split screen one?' says Dale, further displaying his firm grasp of the subject.
Apparently he talks cars with JC, perhaps that's where he gets his encyclopaedic knowledge from. It would be nice to have someone on TG who knows the subject, I hope he gets the job.
Can anyone think of any other suitable presenters from other branches of showbiz?
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Please no! I suppose he will co-present with Cilla Black and the inevitable Sharon Osbourne.
_______
IanS
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Dale had to set him straight - 'we don't have spark plugs any more - replaced by fuel injection'.
He honestly said that? Perhaps he should be partnered on the show by someone equally car savvy. Tinky-winky perhaps.
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Listen to the Jonathon Ross Show at www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/ross/
To hear what Dale Winton said, fast forward to 1:15 (the closest you can get with the 5 and 15 minute fast forward options available) and then listen from 1:17 and onwards.
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Listen to the Jonathon Ross Show at www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/ross/
Sorry Mods: Just realised I didn't remove the http:// element of the link to preserve HJ's bandwidth. Please can you do so. {Done - DD}
TVM.
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Dale had to set him straight -'we don't have spark plugs any more - replaced by fuel injection'.
He is exactly the sort of Guy you would expect to drive a diesel!!!
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The art critic Brian Sewell, he of the rococo vowels, is a part time motor noter. I haven't often read him but when I did he seemed very sensible I thought.
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The art critic Brian Sewell, he of the rococo vowels, is a part time motor noter. I haven't often read him but when I did he seemed very sensible I thought.
He was the motoring correspondent for the Evening Standard I believe.
IIRC he doesn't own a car and has never held a driving licence; however he does write sensible articles.
He and Dale would be a much better double act than JC and the midget.
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Brilliant thread. Thank Goodness for the fast forward option, don't think I could bear to listen for 1.15minutes.
Brian Sewell is a petrolhead - anybody watch the Naked Pilgrim. All is exposed so to speak.
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They might be less inclined to tease each other about their embarrassing medical conditions for one thing, tends to set my teeth on edge that. These performers have a terror of ageing that is truly pathetic to witness. However one might miss the big and little brute, and who on earth is Dale Thingummy? Just add Brian Sewell to the mix: 'The Back Seat'. He could comment on the motor from the back seat, suitably clothed and secured in place, while the Stig put it through its paces round the old Nurburgring. It wd be interesting to see how the vowels stood up to that.
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Sewell would be scathingly honest about the asthetics of cars.
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and little brute, and who on earth is Dale Thingummy?
You aren't a high court judeg are you m'Lud?
I'm warming to the idea of Brian Sewell commentating from the back seat...
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Today's breed of boys-with-toys motoring presenters are looking at cars as playthings. Some cars, like the Bugatti Veyron, are clearly nothing more than an expensive toy and an interesting talking point which is OK however there tends to be a condescending attitude towards everyday cars (and the people who drive them) designed to get people from A to B.
I've just seen a Clarkson DVD where he buys a brand-new Peradua for something like £4000, parks it across the road from the garage and attacks the car with a sledgehammer. If I ran Peradua, I'd go blow £2 million on a Ferrari 250GTO, invite Clarkson to a jolly and then get a monster truck to crush the priceless GTO while he looks on!
Cheers, SS
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Tonight - 21:10
The Top Gear team hit Norway and have a go at Olympic events, but with cars.
Followed by a new series called Petrolheads at 22:10
Apparantly a cross between Have I got news for you and Top Gear.
Hosted by Neil Morrissey, with team captains Richard Hammond (Top Gears hampster) and Chris Barrie (of Red Dwarf fame)
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Tonight - 21:10
Hooray! And after the watershed, so anything could happen. I read that Hammonnd isn't involved with the TG olymipcs as he was too busy with his itv weekday show.
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Not to mention 'Pistonheads' Immediately afterwards.
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Or even Petrolheads - as DD mentioned earlkier.
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top gear now on
if anyone has still forgotten?
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
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Nice Jag, ugly Audi, otherwise just totally daft!
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Missed the first half hour - any idea when it will be repeated?
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And whatever that quiz show is, I turned it off after 10 mins.
Yawn yawn
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Oh i thought it was quite good,thought i amazed the family by correctly identifying the Dodge Charger instantly,but looking round at them had looks of sad compassion aimed at me.
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you should have watched 24.
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Quite Pug. I watched both with increasing irritation and distaste. Utter load of carp throughout, spread very very thin.
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Pistonheads was better at the end, but rubbish firts 15mins.
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Pistonheads was better
What channel was that on? I was watching Petrolheads at the time ;o)
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Why? Yes, why did Top Gear make such a stupid program doing silly things with cars on snow and ice?
I only watch Top Gear infrequently, but this one certainly would stop me wanting to watch another. I always enjoy James May's articles in the Telegraph, but the antics in this program can only be called stupid.
For those who did not watch, here are some of the things they did.
1.A race between an Audi and Volvo 4x4's over a snowy tracks with target shooting (Jeremy Clarkson used a machine gun and missed the targets completely!).
2. A race between the world record holder for speed skating and Jeremy Clarkson driving a Jaguar XK8 round an ice rink. The skater lapped the car twice before it had complete one lap!
3. A race between a 300BHP rally car and a 4 man bobsleigh.
4. A race on a frozen lake between a 4x4 Landrover Discovery and the Jaguar.
5. A 5 a side hockey match using the new Suzuki Swifts. One was rolled and all were battered at the end (1 also died and had to be substitued).
6. Jumping a powered snow ski down the olympic ski jump.
7. Powering an old mini down the ski jump slope using rockets and specially fitted skis.
All in all, totally silly.
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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of course it's silly!
But it's also great tele fun!
Repeat after me....
"IT's JUST A TELEVISION PROGRAMME DESIGNED TO ENTERTAIN"
if it doesn't entertain you then don't watch it.
The various soap operas on tele do my head *if* I watch them so I don't watch them....
;) JaB
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I had the same thought when they played football with the Toyotas as last night with the Swifts
Where do these cars go when they are tidied up ?
Nearly new Suzuki Swift anyone ?
Last night reeked of "We have too much money, what do we do ?"
Entertaining though !
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It was pretty lame, but most things on the idiot lantern are 10x worse. It's obvious the whole thing is filmed and edited to a story-board from the fact that cameras which are mounted on and in the vehicle to provide one shot are nowhere to be seen on the long shots, same goes for the night time illumination - nowhere on longshots so events were nowhere near as they portray them, but that's showbiz folks - an illusion.
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well i enjoyed the programme so maybe i will renew the licence in november as well.
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
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Why? Yes, why did Top Gear make such a stupid program doing silly things with cars on snow and ice?
Perhaps because it was
Topical, being Winter olympic week
On the whole Very entertaining.
What else did you have to watch? I note you seemed to have watched all of it rather than turn over?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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On seeing the words 'Top Gear' my wife generally disappears for a bath! Last night she did the same, but came back down while it was filling. She ended up watching the whole programme in a fit of giggles and total enjoyment. Why do we laugh at people falling over and slipping on snow (marking out the ski slope being one such incident)?
How do I tell her we can't afford a Q7!!!
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I laughed myself silly, as did Mrs Lawman. Great telly. They could have even had something for those who miss the old style Top Gear, if they had made Noel Edmonds pilot the mini down the ski jump. I would have paid to watch that.
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Yes, theres very little actual 'entertainment' on the box these days due to an obsession with political correctness and provding 'serious' content.
But on Sunday night, with a glass of wine in our hands, the wife and I thoroughly enjoyed the Top Gear winter olympics special - actually laughing out loud at James May sliding gently down the slope!
Top Gear does exactly what it should, provides an hour of pure entertainment.
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Well, I could hear my neighbours were watching it by the sound of laughter (and we very rarely hear a peep out of them) so at least two families were being entertained.
V
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Nice to see Clarkson get beaten by 'Go slow' May, although that was more than likely staged.
Shame they had to use the teeth whitening gag once again though.
I was expecting the Mini to barrel roll as it landed from being launched from the end of the ski ramp, but what a perfect landing.
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I laughed, I was entertained - what more do I want. I don't see TG as a motoring program - more a entertainment program that features cars instead of amusingly shaped vegetables! It is also something that I can watch peacefully in the knowledge that my girlfriend will also be enjoying it (although watching a day of TG last weekend on UKTV G2 was probably pushing it!).
I've never understood why people complain about programs - if you don't like it, why watch it. I don't enjoy gardening programs, so I never watch them - I manage to fill those hours with something that I do enjoy doing/watching!
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I laughed, I was entertained - what more do I want.
Me too. Had me howling in places.
Thought the C2 "in an arctic blizzard" would be interesting, but when they revealed it was an ill prepared diesel, then it all seemed a bit pointless.
You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
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Why? Yes, why did Top Gear make such a stupid program doing silly things with cars on snow and ice? All in all, totally silly. -- Roger I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
It is just possible that I missed the point, but wasn't it MEANT to be silly? i.e. not to be taken seriously?
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I read somewhere that TG has become a global phenomenon, with an estimated audience of 1 billion viewers!
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Totally agree with kennybase.
Why do people complain and moan about car based entertainment programs like there is no tomorrow.
Quote All in all, totally silly, Unquote
Duh,i dont expect to see a matter of fact documentary when I switch on the TV to see Topgear.I think 99% of its viewers can afford to be silly and entertained while watching the program and not be a dead pan boring stuffy sourpuss expecting to be fed with facts/statictics.
For Chrissakes slating this is an entertainment program and clearly if you wanted a technical commentary,watching a National Geographic like documentary would be more appropriate!!
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Quite right. There's nothing wrong with spending half an hour moronically sniggering at stuff that basically teaches no one anything. Why should television be useful or even interesting? Most of it isn't, and even more of it won't be soon. Must be difficult for a reasonable person to make a living in it these days, it occurs to me.
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For those people who missed it first time around....
It's being repeated at 22:15 on BBC2 tonight.
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They are making an america topgear - for the market over there. Same recipe is the uk one. Uk team helping out on that.
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This is a long shot - but here goes:
Just been watching a repeat episode of Top Gear (First shown July 17 2005 I think) on one of the satellite channels (I need to get out more - I know) and Clarkson was testing a Ferrari F430. He then chases a Ferrari test driver while driving silver soft top F430 - with the Ferrari driver in the red F430.
Can anyone tell me the title of the guitar music track that is playing whilst the chase in on please ?
Thanks in advance
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Hi, I have no idea on this individual track but 'Shazam' finds most tracks. Dial 2580 on your mobile, hold it up to the source of the music and as long as it receives about 20 secs of uninterrupted ( and with no voice over) music you will get a text back with the artist and track. Costs 50p I think. It is usually accurate. If no-one here comes up with the name, wait for another repeat,it wont be long!
Papho
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I tried it for another Top Gear track and can confirm that the system will not sort the tume out for you if Clarkson is talking! Unless I misread my mobile balance I think the texts are only 10p but you get pay the charge even if they can't identify the music.
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I used it and it identified a track which was talked over part way though. It was the bit when they were driving over that huge bridge in France. It was hamster that starting talking so maybe it is only Clarkson that upsets the system :-)
teabelly
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Many thanks to all of you - I will try this next time it is on.
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I remember seeing this originally and think that the music is 'Sabre Dance' - could be wrong though!
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Against my better judgement, I bought a copy of Top Gear for the first time in about five years. God, what an unreadable mess it is! Should have saved £3.90 and picked up an Argos catalogue instead.
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jlc, I agree. I'm not aware of any decent car mags on sale today but I'm pleased to be contradicted by anyone who's found one. I rely on the Saturday Telegraph section now plus HJ's review in here.
JH
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As a long term reader I disagree. They do occasionally resort to bad language to make their point (which I have complained about because my son likes to read it too), but I find it quite informative. If I wanted endless tests on the merits of individual superminis complete with acceleration time in every gear etc I would get What Car? or Autocar, but I dont, so Topgear does fine for me.
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Fair enough, you don't like Top Gear mag. i have every issue (never got around to getting rid of them, then after issue 30 odd decided to keep them) and yes it's definitely changed in style. But i enjoy reading it.
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It's not the language I don't like, it's the way the pages are laid out so you can't be bothered to read it. The adverts and the editorial look the same. CAR's just as bad. Why can't designers stop trying to be clever and just give us some black text on a page? For instance, Motor Sport is beautifully clear and simple.
(PS. Before anyone asks, yes, I have had my eyes tested recently, thanks.)
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As with any publication, some appeal and some don't.
Find the one that suits you and the problem is solved.
I enjoy reading the handed on copies of Top Gear that the offspring parts with every so often - others might throw them in the recyling bag for the local council..
If we all had the same tastes life would be very boring.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Not sure about Top Gear but I actually think Autocar is as good or probably better than its been for the last 20 years at the moment.
Just a shame car is no longer the independent voice it once was.
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At the moment I read Car magazine. Good apart from some difficult to read print over photo backgrounds - like black on dark grey! Autocar I went off because of all the speculative computer images of forthcoming models. Ditto Auto Express the same only more so.
I had Diesel Car for some time but now that so many cars sold are diesel they get good coverage in the normal motoring press.
If there was a monthly magazine that was a cross between Car and Autocar that would be just right for me.
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Well, the magazine can only be better than the TV show, can't it? I stopped watching Top Gear, and 5th gear in the last series. They were both getting worse, and then the last series was terrible, especially 5th gear which was presented in an office kind of environment.
Persoannlly I think the magazines generally tend to be reasonable. I got Autocar this month (I got the wrong one, it should have been autoexpress), and I don't like it. All it seems to have is super cars which I have absolutely no interest in.
What I would like is a magazine about 'driving' rather than cars. There is the IAM magazine, but there are only 4 each year IIRC, and there isn't much in it.
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I wonder if the specialist mags are any good? I don't buy them because, well they're specialist and while a 200bhp mk2 Escort rally car is intrigiung I'm not going to buy the mag. And I'm not old enough to buy Practical Tractor yet.
JH
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Have to admit that I buy What Car several times a year just to keep up with the latest offerings on the car front. I do find that some of their multitudinous facts and figures are somewhat inaccurate from time to time (to be expected, though).
This is the only magazine, as far as I'm concerned, that deals with ordinary cars.
Many decades ago when I first passed my driving test and started driving (fifty years ago, this year), I used to buy Autocar and Motor almost weekly but the latter disappeared and the former lost its sparkle and accuracy, especially the splendid detailed diagrams of cars and their working parts.
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Agreed about Autocarp - it went 'laddish' a year or two back and lost the plot, I reckon.
Anyone read Test Drive? The latest issue is on special offer for £1.50, which must mean they're desperate!
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Yes,I have read a couple of issues of "Test Drive" and find it informative and reasonably unbiased in it`s reports.At £1.50 for the latest one cannot go wrong.
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Please can someone help.
I have previously asked for some guidance on how to find a music track from Top Gear - I was advised Shazam and also another web site that lists all the tracks from each episode.
I have just spent and hour trying to recall/find that web-site - can anyone remnd me what it was please.
Thanks in advance.
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I had the same problem and I just telephoned the number given in the editorial contact details in Top Gear Magazine and a very helpful chap gave me the info I wanted within seconds. All you need is the content of the episode and about how many minutes thru it the music you want was played.
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>>have just spent and hour trying to recall/find that web-site
>>
the forum search button (on the right under your user name) brings up:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=37...7
Top Gear Music - type's' Sat 25 Mar 06 21:18
hth.
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Many thanks Dalglish -
How useless am I on the PC ????
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