Thanks for the link. I had followed that thread at the time, though lost the will to live when it started to get esoteric.
In the end, I still didn't feel a conclusion had been reached, which was why I asked again.
In summation, does anyone who knows anything about this subject, feel that a switch from Mobil semi-syn to Magnatec is a step down?
Or should I just find something else to worry about (like why I'm still using a Honda main dealer when my car has just gone out of warranty)?
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In summation, does anyone who knows anything about this subject.......
Very few people (unless they are truly oil experts) can possibly know anything significant about something as complex as oil ~ except possibly the retail price and what type their car manufacturer recommends.
--
L\'escargot.
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You may have seen in the other thread confirmation that Magnatec is not a semi-synthetic oil; it is a mineral oil. That being so, switching to it from semi-synth is a definite step down, and the oil experts I have read say you should not do that. I am very surprised that a Honda dealer should choose to do this, as I thought Honda engines were designed at the finest tolerances of all and therefore are eminently suitable for life-long fully synthetic lubrication. To quote Chris Longhurst:
"If you do decide to change, only go up the scale. If you've been running around on synthetic, don't change down to a mineral-based oil - your engine might not be able to cope with the degradation in lubrication. Consequently, if you've been using mineral oil, try a semi or a full synthetic oil. By degradation, I'm speaking of the wear tolerances that an engine develops based on the oil that it's using. Thicker mineral oils mean thicker layers of oil coating the moving parts (by microns though). Switching to a thinner synthetic oil can cause piston rings to leak and in some very rare cases, piston slap or crank vibration."
www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/engineoil_bible....l
There's nothing wrong with Magnatec per se -- apart from its misleading label ("Synthetic Engineering", pah) -- and I use it in two cars, one 21 years old next month, the other 14 years old and having lived on Magnatec for the past 100,000 miles.
As to the change interval, fully synth oil is reckoned to be good for longer intervals than mineral oil. 4.5k may be on the low side and you could probably go to 7.5k without worrying, judging by advice from HJ and others more expert than I am. However, I would also view shorter-than-necessary intervals as a good thing and a sign that a car is being properly cared for. I err on that side myself, as I am interested in keeping good cars in good health for as long as I can.
To quote Irv Gordon from HJ's FAQ 36:
* Change your oil and filter regularly. ?If there is any one maintenance activity that will extend the life of your car?s engine, this is it.?
. . .
* Use one brand of oil. ?Using one brand of oil assures uniform quality.?
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Well i have always used Magnatec in my cars and have had no problems, however i change it every 6000 miles, but i've recently changed to GM's own semi-synthetic 1,cos i read the article mentioned that magnatec is only a mineral oil and 2, GM's oil is £14.25 for 5 ltrs, magnatec about £18 for 4 1/2 ltrs, so surely semi- syn is better than mineral, I am not an expert so stand to be corrected.
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>>GM's oil is £14.25 for 5 ltrs,>>
National does an oil and filter change using Duckhams semi-synthetic (up to five litres) for £15.
Immaculately done at my centre, takes about half-an-hour and if I wish I can have the half-litre left over as my car only takes four-and-a-half litres...:-)
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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You may have seen in the other thread confirmation that Magnatec is not a semi-synthetic oil; it is a mineral oil.
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roger -
where is this confirmation and by whom?
castrol magnatec has a proportion of esters added to its base mineral oil and that makes it "semi-synthetic" by any definiton.
castrol have won their case in court, and i would be surprised if you were willing to fight them if they took you to court.
also, do you know how many "true" synthetic oils are availbale in the uk?
i would be surprised if most high-street "synthetics" are actually not true synthetic group iv or v - which tend to be very expensive oils used in specialised applications.
(by "true", i mean "synthesised group iv polyalphaolefins, and group v diesters and polyolesters" and "not mineral oil derived hydrocracked group i, ii, or iii ". )
to answer badger's question, i believe the best advice was given by aprilia, the backroom's real-life professional engineering expert with no axe to grind:
to quote aprilia
"In many years of looking at engines I have seen very few that have had problems because of oil breakdown. So long as the correct SAE/ACEA spec is used and its changed regularly then you shouldn't have a problem with any modern oil.
I believe that a Group III oil is good enough. Its very difficult to make a case for the expensive PAO/Ester oils unless you are on an extended change interval or racing, or possibly running a high-performance turbo car.
and the oilman's reply to that was:
Indeed these are wise words. A group III oil is fine for normal road cars in normal situations.
I always advocate the use of proper synthetics for performance cars, modded cars, cars used on track or cars on variable service schedules.
There are also many cars today where synthetics are specified as the requirement. The oil market is changing and this is primarily driven by OEM's realising the benefits of synthetics for long drain and total cost of ownership figures.
And yes, like everything in this world as demand rises, prices will inevitably fall.
Oil prices will rise in years to come and synthetics (true ones) will I'm sure come into their own.
that should settle any doubts, i should think.
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Dalglish
"where is this confirmation and by whom?"
From Oilman in the earlier thread, in response to my statement:
"Magnatec is a mineral oil, not a semi-synthetic. The words on the canister -- "synthetic engineering" -- are a perfect example of the weasel variety. Somewhere on the Web is an account of the legal case (in the USA, I think) that allowed Castrol to get away with using those words. Nevertheless, I do use Magnatec as a good mineral oil."
Oilman:
"Indeed, cheapening tricks. Magnatec is a mineral oil with a very small percentage of ester added to give it polarity. I've seen chemical analysis!"
And I've seen it said elsewhere too.
Castrol use the words "Synthetic Engineering" on the canister (I have one in front of me); they do not use the words "semi-synthetic". All the spiel on the back is about "the oil that clings to engine surfaces like a magnet". If it is a true semi-synth, it is more than a little surprising that they do not say so. I would suggest that the words "semi-synthetic" have more marketing potency than "Synthetic Engineering", so why don't they use them? It was no doubt the similarity of "Synthetic Engineering" to "semi-synthetic" and similar phrases that prompted the court case in the first instance. If they did use the words "semi-synthetic", I guess they'd be in court again.
What does "Synthetic Engineering" mean, by the way? It's conveniently ambiguous, alluding to things synthetic without defining the product indefensibly in those terms. It also prompts the consumer to bracket the product with the more expensive and alluring semi-synth and fully synth products. Thus, most people -- even those in the biz -- think it's a semi-synth.
As indicated above, I use Magnatec in two cars, so I have no axe to grind other than a distaste for weasel words.
Another "by the way": Magnatec seems to have become pricey in Halfords. Wait for the next promotional deal and stock up.
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roger -
thanks for that clarification.
i believe oilman defines "synthetic" to mean pure grade iv or v synthetics. by that definiton, most oils on the market that use the word "synthetic" would fail his test.
this is clear from his statements in the other thread:
"This piece by Silkolene's chief chemist explains.
Quote:
Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the ?Ester? types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as ?hydrocracked?. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low ?W? rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.
We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the ?synthetic? which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled ?synthetic?.
....
....
But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd ?track day?, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.
so it seems, silkolene too use the mineral derived "synthetic".
if you want a true synthetic, you will need to pay 6 to 10 times more. and castrol are fully justified, as agreed by a court of law, to describe "synthetic" oil jsut as the rest of theoil industry does.
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p.s.
by the way, castrol magnatec goes one step better than the definiton that silkolene's chief chemist allegedly stated:
the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called ?synthetic?.
Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight! They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word ?synthetic? could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of ?hydrocracked? mineral oil, ..
so on top of using hydrocracked mineral oil, castrol magnatec has a percentage of "esters" - i.e. pure synthetics - and so is more of a true "semi-synthetic" than some others on the market.
note - i have absolutely no connection with castrol, except that my car spec requires that i use "fully synthetic" castrol-longlife-2-slx (which oilman sdoes not seem to sell ).
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Totally agree about Magnatec being a semi synthetic product. Castrol had their time in court and the case has been reasonably proven. I have used this oil all the time in the 5w30 variety for over 60k and it has been fine.
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Dalglish: I don't think the issue went to court, unless you count "The National Advertising Department of the Council of Better Business Bureau" as a court, which is the body that the oil barons went to. The weight of this dispute decision has got exaggerated; its a form of arbitration so far as I can gather.
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A few weeks ago I got involved in a minor flame war over on google groups for suggesting magnatec wasn't in the same league quality wise as Mobil 1 (IMHO of course).
The best ammunition I could find to back up my claim was this thread :- snipurl.com/iqrv
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Oilman, where are you?
In whatever legal or quasi-legal forum Magnatec was examined, I think the key issue was not whether it was semi-synthetic but whether Castrol were entitled to use the words "synthetic engineering". Tell me why they persist in using those words and why there is no use of "semi-synthetic", which is the industry-wide term applied to the middle group of oils in the range from mineral to fully synth.
At
tinyurl.com/dbxre
you will find "contains a unique synthetic ester that clings to the engine surfaces like a magnet" used repeatedly, as is the phrase "synthetically engineered". Nowhere will you find "semi-synthetic".
Tell you what, I'll ask Castrol why and will report back later.
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Meantime, here's what GIM (an oil-industry insider, I believe) posted here about a year ago:
"Not all synthetics are the same. The consumer definition of "synthetic" has been stretched in terminology recently to also include Group-III Mineral Oils.
The Group-III Mineral Oils have been "chemically pseudo-synthetised" by hydrocracking.
Castrol uses this 'up-graded mineral oil' as the synthetic part of magnatec.
Mobil took Castrol to an advertising tribunal but it back-fired on them. Companies can now advertise just about anthing as "synthetic" despite not being a Group-IV/V PAO/Ester base."
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Dalglish: I don't think the issue went to court, unless you count
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nortones2 - so i take it you do not agree that "court" is meant in the words allegedly used [1] by silkolene's "chief chemist, and [2]words used by the oilman:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=32348
[1]"Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called ?synthetic?.
[2]Well up until the Mobil vs Castrol case it was simple, it was and still is in my book "manmade" and built in laboratories by chemists. It still is and made of poly alpha olefin and/or ester.
However (shame on the judge), it no longer means this as Castrol won the right to call highly modified mineral oils (hydrocracked) synthetic and so the flood gates where opened!
Now oil manufacturers are able to call a smart looking can of cheap mineral oil with a small % of hydrocracked oil in it a synthetic, shameful but legal.
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The decision was not a decision of any court of law. Its rather similar to the Advertising Standards Agency here: its not formally part of the legal system.
From the horses mouth: "National advertisers who use the NAD process find it to be significantly less expensive than litigation. By utilizing NAD, cost-conscious companies save hundreds of thousands of dollars typically spent seeking reparation through the courts."
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Nowhere will you find "semi-synthetic".
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true, but note also that the only oil they refer to as "mineral oil" is the plain old castrol-gtx :
castrol range of oils is listed here.
snipurl.com/ir1p
they are
Castrol EDGE Range
Castrol EDGE is a complete range of our best engine oils designed to outperform on the Critical Engine Factors.
EDGE is our best, made for demanding drivers ? who love their machines.
Castrol Formula RS Range
Fully synthetic engine oils offering outstanding protection under extreme conditions, but also for everyday use in petrol and diesel cars.
Castrol SLX Range
The Castrol SLX range of fully synthetic engine oils has been developed, in full co-operation with the leading car manufacturers, using the latest technology to offer ultimate levels of performance and protection for today's highly efficient engines.
Castrol GTX Magnatec Range
The Castrol GTX Magnatec range of oils offer complete protection for all cars. The unique formulations protect your engine from the moment you turn the key and continue to provide complete and continuous protection between service intervals
Castrol GTX Range
A range of high quality mineral engine oils for your everyday motoring needs.
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Is the new Edge range of oils better or worse spec than the Magnatec range.
I have always been a Castrol fan, but I am now getting confused with all these different ranges.
Please can anyone help me to understand.
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From Oilman in the earlier thread, in response to my statement: "Magnatec is a mineral oil, not a semi-synthetic.
So did Castrol lie to me in their email response to my query?
I *think* not. As there are different grades of Magnatec, I suspect some are synthetic (as in the case of my query) and some grades are mineral oil.
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dd -
thanks for pointing that out.
in case it is not easy to spot, here is the reply that castrol sent to dd :
good morning Dave,
In response to your enquiry about the 5W-30 Magnatec, it is a Semi synthetic oil.
regards,
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