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Cue MLC...my ZT has been a joy to own after two years of ownership. Great to drive and very comfortable. It's only being replaced (when I stop dithering) because I need a hatch\estate. However I won't buy a new ZT-T because I am unsure about the companies future. I think a lot of people feel the same. If they can convince the buying public that they're not about to go bump, I think their sales figures will improve.
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>>If they can convince the buying public that they're not about to go bump,
From what I have seen & read so far.I feel it unlikely they will recover.I feel sorry for workforce. NOT management
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Steve
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Mines a Rover 75 2.5 V6. Great car, great engine, very reliable, very comfortable.
Criticising and carping is an easy armchair activity semmingly enjoyed by many.
I agree, the the managers really aren't capable leaders and can't deliver success, though that is a UK problem that spreads much wider than MGR. The Phoenix Four were good five years ago but I feel they have passed their sell by date.
Whatever happens it cannot be good to lose more manufacturing jobs- despite its rave reviews the service sector will never provide fully for the UK. I hope that the company does survive and gets the calibre of managers it needs.
In the meantime I will continue to enjoy my 75, an underrated and oft criticised car, criticised not because it deserves it, but because from those armchairs its just too easy.............
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I like the 75, even more the estate. It looks good and drives well in its rover guise, and looks better and drives well in its MG guise.
Unfortunatly its one car. The rest of the range is very poor, appaling some of them.
Shame about the 75 but its time rover was allowed to die with what little respect it has left.
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I looked at the 75 and I could feel myself liking it. "No Adam - get a hold of yourself man" I would tell myself. It's a Rover for God's sake.
But alas, I could resist no longer when it came along in it's MG guise - as RF says - it does look nice. I'm pretty sure it drives very well - MLC loves his. But again, I'm agreeing with RF. (I'm surprising myself!) The rest of the range is so bad it's laughable. The MG verion of the 45 - whatever sporty name they gave it is ridiculous. A 45 with essentially no boot furnature by way of handles or anything and slightly different lights. The Max Power bodykit doesn't help it at all. Then you have the MG version of the 25 ( I get mixed up between ZS, ZR and ZT). People rave about them but come on - it's a 25! Maybe it's because I don't like small cars but I just don't like any Rover bar the 75 (preferably the MG version).
I cannot see any model coming out that will save it - that's not me being all doom and gloom - that's me being realistic. Even if they brought something out on par with Ford's success back in 1998 with the Focus I still don't think it could save them.
Sorry.
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Adam
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I've always vowed never to buy a Rover car after previously owning an Allagro. OK, I know it was a different company back then - Austin, and things move on and all that, but I can also remember only a few years ago when a couple of friends had Rover 200's with either the k series or Honda engine fitted. Again nothing but trouble with them, and I thought Honda were *supposed* to be reliable? Coupled with a Rover it would appear not the case. Then BMW had an attempt at bringing Rover up to speed, but the cynic in me thinks BMW only showed an interest for the Mini name.
On the flipside, a colleague at work has a 52 reg Rover 75 diesel and the only trouble he's ever had with it was when a badger decided to play chicken with the front bumper and radiator.
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>>but I can also remember only a few years ago when a couple of friends had Rover 200's with either the k series or Honda engine fitted. Again nothing but trouble with them,
Older 200 series.except K series engine. Was actualy a descent motor.Ie diesel engine both 1996 cc and 1769 cc turbo intercooled was and still is sought after..Honda engine auto wasnt as bad as made out. But rover lost the plot when 400/45/25 came out.Poor visibility all round poor build and not as comfortable..Should have stayed with Honda?
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Steve
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I rather fancied a 75 until they "maxxed pimped some of da rides up" with silly plastic attatchments, 'bling' wheels and awful badging....oh and those adverts aimed at the consumer social classes D & E.
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I wouldn't be put off with the prospect of production ending. If you buy one now, firstly you'll be able to negotiate a huge discount for what is after all a good car, and, if they do go out of business, parts and servicing shouldn't be a problem, as I'm sure some entrepreneur or several will make sure the market is supplied with every conceivable component.
The only issue though is the warranty....
H
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The strange thing is the ZR is the best selling hot hatch in the country and the TF the best selling roadster. The ZS is recognised by those in the know (aka Tiff Nedell) as being one of the best handling front wheel drive cars period. I think the company needs to sort out its public relations and spend a bit of cash on advertising.
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Worryingly, I just showed my wife a picture of an Allegro Vanden Plas using it as an example of Rovers past mistakes and she said it looked "quite nice"..................
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Oh look - a mainly MGR bashing thread on Honest John's site. Now there's a suprise!!! Not.
To those of you that say MGR make old crap cars, can I draw your attention to Autoexpresses driver satisfaction survey 2005. Just browsing the general anti-MGR forums, I've noticed that not one has mentioned the JD power survey yet..... probably sad to see that all the VAG cars (bar the Skodas) are behind MGR cars.
Anyway here are some key points regarding MGR products:-
- Rover 25 beat Citroen Saxo, Fiat Punto, Peugeot 206, Vauxhall Corsa, Renault Clio, Citroen C3 and VW Polo.
- MG ZR beat Citroen Saxo, Fiat Punto, Peugeot 206, Vauxhall Corsa, Renault Clio, Citroen C3 and VW Polo, Seat Ibiza and Ford Fiesta. Only the Citroen C2, MINI, Nissan Micra and Toyota Yaris in the supermini category did better.
- Rover 45 beat Peugeot 307, Vauxhall Astra (Old) and Citroen Xsara.
For the guy on this forum that said "The MG verion of the 45 - whatever sporty name they gave it is ridiculous. A 45 with essentially no boot furnature by way of handles or anything and slightly different lights. The Max Power bodykit doesn't help it at all.", read this:-
- MG ZS beat Peugeot 307, Vauxhall Astra (Old) and Citroen Xsara, VW Golf (Old), Alfa Romeo 147, Renault Megane, Fiat Stilo, Nissan Almera, Vauxhall Astra (New), Ford Focus, VW Bora, Seat Leon, Toyota Corolla & Audi A3.
Rover 75 beat Renault Laguna, Alfa Romeo 156, Peugeot 406, Vauxhall Vectra, Nissan Primera, Vauxhall Omega, VW Passat, Honda Accord (Old), Ford Mondeo, Jaguar X-Type, Citroen C5, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Audi A4, BMW 3-Series, Audi A6 (Old) and Toyota Avensis.
MG ZT beat Renault Laguna, Alfa Romeo 156, Peugeot 406, Vauxhall Vectra, Nissan Primera, Vauxhall Omega, VW Passat, Honda Accord (Old), Ford Mondeo, Jaguar X-Type, Citroen C5, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Audi A4, BMW 3-Series, Audi A6 (Old), Toyota Avensis, Volvo S80, Saab 9-5, Volvo S60 and Volvo V70. It was only beaten by Mazda6, Lexus IS and Honda Accord (New).
Make your own conclusions. Ageing products - but it seems that they can still cut it with the best when it comes to Driver Satisfaction!
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Make your own conclusions. Ageing products - but it seems that they can still cut it with the best when it comes to Driver Satisfaction!
Not wanting to get drawn into the argument here, but JD Power claims to compare OWNER satisfaction. A very different thing to driver or driving satifaction I'd say.
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I can't see anyone having a go at MGR yet. I can see everyone telling the truth.
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Adam
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"Make your own conclusions. Ageing products - but it seems that they can still cut it with the best when it comes to Driver Satisfaction!"
Funny thing is, they are not flying out of the showrooms, neither are the roads clogged with them. Which is what Rover need to survive.
It seems the buying public have made thier own conculsions.
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I take my cars as I find them and I like ny ZT. However, I don't think this has become a 'Rover Bashing' thread. People write what they perceive and some vaild points have been raised. The fact is that despite some good cars and some great chassis', the company is not doing too well. There are many other car companies that are in financial crisis (GM, Mitsubishi, Fiat), they just don't generate the press milage that MG-Rover seems to do.
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Indeed MGR are not alone in feeling the economic chill, - the 2005 projected losses for Mitsubishi are horrendous :-
For the current fiscal year to March 2005, Mitsubishi forecast a net loss of Y240 billion ($A3.03 billion) and a recurring loss of Y180 billion ($A2.27 billion) on sales of Y2.1 trillion ($A26.49 billion).
- AFP
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I tried to stay out of this because I'm biased as I own a 1970 P5B Coupe (that's the big one that they used to cart the PM and other Ministers of the Crown around in).
Anyway, I believe that Rover lost their way when they were integrated into the BL group and the metamorphosis of the Company went from Leyland to BL to Austin-Rover and then Rover.
My theory is that the management chose to go with the Rover name as in the dim and distant past it represented a manufacturer of predtige and quality vehicles and they wanted to trade on that image and thereby thought they could make the procduct command a higher price. However, they failed to take into account the fact that Rovers were also associared with being old Mens' cars (primarily because they were so expensive not necessarily because they were staid and boring).
As a result of the above, whet we have ended up with is a lot of over priced, reasonable quality cars with a brand image problem which has been made worse by the management at MGR doing the MG badge engineering trick on a load of outdated designes because they can't afford to design and manufacture new ones.
I still believe it would be a shame for MGR to close its door but not out of pur sentimentality but because they are capable of producing good cars (Rover 75 being a top quality product) and the workforce deserve, after their unswereving loyal efforts, to maintain their jobs.
As someone said earlier, they need to take a close look at their public image, straighten it out and spend some money advertising the true virtues of the products they have to approriate audiences with cars pitched at the right price.
Just as a PS, I very nearly bought a 75 - brand new - but decided the risk of them going down the tubes was too great so I bought a brand new.........................................
Primera!
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Thats the way I feel. I want a 75 but am worried about the future.
I worked in insurance and my branch closed due to competitive pressure from big business outsourcing to India and China and also the internet factor. I now work in retailing and all the top name brands come from China. The cheapness and quality you would not believe (cheap and good). Although redundancy was harsh, that is business and I had to get on and start again.
This is going to sound equally harsh, but I hope Rover close down quickly in the UK and start up production in China. We might then have cars that have been developed with Honda and BMW, but are offered at a cheap Korea kind of pricing structure.
Remember, Jap cars/bikes started out cheap and cheerful and developed over the years into the Lexus's, GSX-R's and Honda NSX's that we get today. That is where China is at and hopefully Chinese built Rovers will allow the brand to carry on.
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Sorry, the insurance was NOT outsourced to China...that slipped in in error!
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I remember the days when exporting into Japan was almost impossible. The tricks they pulled to prevent imports were outrageous. Any car manufacturer had to send a sample for an exhaustive list of checks to ensure they conformed to some law or other.
Inevitably they failed with a list of modifications which needed doing first. While these were being carried out new laws were passed in Japan so the criteria had again been changed.
This went on so many times until everyone gave up.
Our old friends the French once retaliated against the Japs as only they will do. Employed two old men and a dog to unpack every VHS receiver to ensure that it conformed to French electrical regulations.
Delegations to Japan protesting against their importing rules were met with bland reassurances that changes would be made shortly but they were just stalling.
Car workers in the USA being made redundant took it out on Japanese cars in the street.
Over these decades our industry was decimated by open markets and its now continuing with China as the new and bigger Japan.
I know and recognise the old arguments that their cars are more reliable etc and its our own money we are spending, but the bigger one is that we will ultimately finish as little more than a service sector, and with no industry of our own these low cost Countries will put their prices up to whatever they choose.
I believe we should subsidise Rover (and other industries) which is no doubt done in many other countries. If we can pay a billion for a useless Dome and then talk about lending! 100 million to our last car manufacturer it says it all.
If Rover go to the wall and this forum is still running in 30 years people will be asking ?how on earth did they let this happen? And children will be asking their dads ?why don?t we make anything in this country? and someone will have to explain how once we were the biggest manufacturing and exporting nation in the world. How we invented most things and the Midlands were known as ?the toolroom of the world?
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I would recommend a book called "eBay the Perfect Store". It illustrates perfectly the world we now live in.
I think over the years prices across the world will gradually harmonise. Protectionism never works long-term. Remember subsidies have to be paid somewhere and overall they make the country giving them less competitive........unless you can get another country to pay them! French Farmers!!?
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Lots of companies seem capable of producing cars (profitably) in this country - if MGR can't cut it then that, ultimately, is their problem.
I feel sorry for the employees but this company has been bailed out enough times. If, as it appears, it is fundamentally unviable it should be left to the receivers.
What sort of message does bailing out MGR say? Make something people want, make it profitably, do well and you pay VAT, National Insurance and Corporation Tax, but, hey, fail to make any money for 30 years, make a product no one wants to buy and gobble up cash and forget the VAT, the National Insurance and why don't you have another £100m to burn through in the meantime until the next crisis.
It is no longer 1972, it is 2005, and the sooner the government, MGR and eveyone else involved in it wake up and realise this fact the better.
If I was SAIC I would forget the deal, wait a month and buy the badges and any technologies I want from the liquidators. Harsh, but that's the way the world works.
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>>If I was SAIC I would forget the deal, wait a month and buy the badges and any technologies I want from the liquidators.
I did wonder if that was what they were up to??
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Steve
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Will the last person to leave Longbridge please turn out the lights...
Damaged by Socialism, robbed by BAE, cleaned out by BMW, then bled dry by the current owners. A worse range of cars than exists alomst anywhere else - well suited to the Chinese then. Hopeless case.
Will this lose Tony's Cronies the election? I do hope so.
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Will the last person to leave Longbridge please turn out the lights...
By the sound of things they won't have to - the electricity will already have been cut off.
Although, technically, the final end of what was BL let's not forget other parts of what formed BL such as Jaguar, Land Rover, LDV, Unipart, the Cowley Plant etc. are all still in business and in some cases doing better than they ever have.
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>>>I tried to stay out of this because I'm biased as I own a 1970 P5B Coupe<<<
You lucky fella.
I had a P6 V8 for a year or so and loved it. A wonderful car, despite being more than 25 years old, drove as well as any modern car.
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One thing I don't understand about the attempts to sell off what remains of Rover.
When Towers & Co bought the company, I'm sure they said that one of the things they would do to save cash was to cut back on R&D, because they would do a joint venture for any new platform.
I presume they did they this, because otherwise their R&D folks would have been twiddling their thumbs for the last six years.
So what exactly is left for sale? A series of comptent but aged car and engine designs, a skeleton design team which for six years has only done cheap facelifts, one old factory, and a lease arrangement on its major brand?
Are the Chinese really going to part with a billion for that?
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Do an internet search for Ernst & Young, Rover and Observer and I think you will find you are probably right.
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I always wondered what would happen after MGR had spent the £500m of BMW's money. Five years on, and the MGR car company has not made one penny of profit.
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Having said that I am not an economist, but would £500 million in the West Midland Economy be cheaper over 5 years than 6000 extra people (not counting suppliers) on the rock and roll.
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LFTD,
Not sure what you mean. Is spending £500 million of BMW's money better than 6,000 on the dole a better deal for the taxpayer. Yes.
Is spending £500 million of taxpayers money in the future better than 6,000 on the dole, NO NO NO.
These calculations assume that all of them go on the dole and stay their permanently, this would not be true, same may WHO KNOWS start up businesses and make profits and put money in to the pot instead of taking it out and the pot is NOT bottomless and the money has to come from somewhere. This sort of thinking ended up with Healey having to go on his knees to the IMF so they could bail out the sick man of Europe.
Labour has got to keep Rover up by hook or by crook until after 5th May beyond that all bets are off.
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Labour has got to keep Rover up by hook or by crook until after 5th May beyond that all bets are off.
Actually, I think that ALL the politicians have to keep it afloat: note how all the opposition parties have been briefed by govt, and none has made a political football out of it.
What's a few hundred million of taxpayer's money to any of them (even the sternest anti-subsidy politicians) when there are scores of marginal seats at stake?
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As stated above, as a businessman I think without a doubt let it die.
However I was asking rhetorically the question re the 500 mill as I thought I was possibly looking at the situation simplistically.
As I am typing this BBC News has said talks have broken down.
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Hmm... (breaks out in a sweat) I do agree with NW (did I really type that?) that in this situation ALL current politicians would spend whatever is needed to keep BMC (for thats what it really is) up until after the election.
The only reason I typed Labour is because the Torys and the LibDebs are for this election at least frankly a joke.
Only Thatcher had the balls (pun intended) to say get rid now!
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I believe TWR did the R&D work, but the division that did all the R&D had some problems (I Think they went bust). So MGR have nothing to show.
--
306 2.0 SE Cabriolet
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I cannot see any model coming out that will save it - that's not me being all doom and gloom - that's me being realistic. Even if they brought something out on par with Ford's success back in 1998 with the Focus I still don't think it could save them. Sorry. -- Adam
I agree, the Focus was hugely successful for Ford, unfortunately it still wasn't enough for the company and they are still in a bit of a hole financially, making losses etc.
The problem Ford came across with the Focus was it's development costs, IIRC it cost a bomb to produce the Focus, it acheived what they wanted to, but cost so much to do it.
Blue
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I should just hate to be on a lifesaver machine with you guys standing round the bed. The moment the nurse turned her head the plug would be out.
It isn?t only 6000 on the dole its probably double that taking into account the suppliers and then multiplying that by family you could quadruple this. I doubt anyone contributing to this thread owes their income to the Rover Group.
Rolls Royce aero engines in my area have been in the same trouble before and only intervention by Government saved them. Probably because of the military needs.
I doubt if the French would be so keen to see their car makers allowed to go to the wall and no doubt the EU would be finding reasons to prevent it. But then again the French for all their supposed faults are so much more patriotic and buy their own cars despite the slating they get on this forum.
It?s a self fulfilling wish to see our own institutions fail in Britain and my own belief is that we should be supporting and not encouraging them to be knocked down.
Rover have had a rough deal really. Weak spineless management back in the 70s who allowed workers on night shift to sleep and not manufacture. Allowed a group of bully boys to intimidate and act as management. And with no moral support from the Government Far to late and the only one with any balls was the little South African chap who sacked Robbo.
Shipyards gone.. Fishing almost gone?farming the same. Yes these people can probably find jobs stacking shelves in the local supermarket.
If the Japanese can not only build cars in their country but also in Britain (albeit with big subsidies) using our own workers something is sadly wrong.
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Yep Alvin lets subsidise everyone because we wouldn't want to be nasty to anyone and money is free after all. Then we'll end up like those French who'se economy is in such good shape.
And of course its not the workers fault for sleeping on the night shift so we can't blame them, its weak management that never suffered any government interference when they tried to impose some discipline on the lazy pink fluffy dice.
Its all down to us being negative about Britain...
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Alvin, everything you have said is symptomatic of a weak firm.
Weak firms die...simple as that. Keeping them afloat saps energy (money) from successful ones.
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Wasn't going to enter this particular debate, but I have to agree with the last two posts.
It isn't as if Rover are a popular business suffering a temporary setback - they've been losing market share for yonks and will go on dying the death of a thousand cuts. Let them go.
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In what way is MGR an "institution"? Out of an annual production of 1.6 million or thereabouts they make about 100,000 cars a year in the UK. That's 6.25%. You can't even say they contribute to development skills - the last car they developed was the 75 in 1998 and that was developed at Gaydon which is now safely in the hands of Land Rover / Ford and the home to Aston Martin. They have no significant development facilities, they don't even own the badge, they have already flogged all their remaining intellectual rights to the Chinese including their engine designs, car designs and possibly the water cooler in reception in a desperate effort to pay the phone bill. What's left to "save"?
In the UK car industry MGR are not a significant player in terms of production, development or even number of employees.
Rolls-Royce were indeed rescued - once and a long time ago during an exceptional economic peroid. Since then they haven't needed rescuing again and have become the world's leading aero engine manufacturer. BL, BMC, MGR or whatever you want to call them are hardly the same.
I'm sorry to see MGR and Longbridge finally go (as news reports this evening suggest will almost certainly be the case) but they are a business at the end of the day which didn't make any money (in fact gobbled up billions over a 30 year peroid). Business go bust and new ones are started every day, it's the way of the world. Sad for the many (though not all) talented people at MGR but I hope and expect they will find other jobs (hopefully better ones) soon.
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I was speaking to a stockbroker last night. He reckons that GM are in the really big doo doo, even more so than Rover.
Rover are a joke, producing ancient cars at unrealistic prices. There are loads of people who can be blamed over the last 40 years or so, so its not worth the effort identifying them. However, if Rover go, it won't really be noticed. Why do we need an indigenous car plant. The only companies making regular cars for a profit are the Japanese, French and VW. GM, Ford and Fiat are losing money big time. If GM go bump (and it is possible) you really will notice it - including you and me.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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I really hope that something can be worked out, Its been clear from the start that MGR needed a partner to share the development costs of new models because their volumes are not high enough to go it alone, which is why being taken over by BMW and losing model development with Honda was a big mistake.
I think in the long term with a partner the company could be turned around so I would support a short term cash injections. This country has lost too much manufacturing as it is, can we really have a long term healthy economy just by doing each others washing.
I work for a steel manufacturing company which was once part of british steel and one of the reasons it still survives today is because the Labour Government in the mid seventies invested £130 million to modernise the plant.
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The only way I can see Rover surviving is if they are taken over by an established car manufacturer who know what they are getting into. Pouring government money into the company still leaves you with the management who brought the firm to it's knees in the first place. Why should they get it right next time? They have already proved they are not up to it.
Govrnment money also means government interference, and British governments have a disasterous record when it comes to manufacturing industry, only wasting taxpayers money while they delay the inevitable. Manufacturing only contributes to an economy if it makes a profit, and how long is it since the automotive production sector made any contribution to the British economy at all?
We should have learned the lessons about propping up lame ducks many years ago.
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The only way I can see Rover surviving is if they are taken over by an established car manufacturer
Din't BMW do that?
Look what happenend?
burnt,,fingers,,got,, are the words that come to mind.
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news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4411273.stm
Discussions with Chinese firm Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) have stalled over concerns about Rover's financial health.
According to reports, its financial position is worse than either SAIC or UK government officials realised.
Rover's future - and that of 6,000 jobs - is hanging in the balance.
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People have looked at the finances and seen they are a mess, apart from the boss's pension fund. The cars are a mess too everything matches up!
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"The cars are a mess too"- er!! No they're not.
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Well OK, the 75 isn't a mess but they can't sell it within £3,000 of the list price. Indian based thing is overpriced, re-badged rubbish and everything else is overpriced and out of date so that's a mess, where I come from! Plus spares are becoming hard to obtain, or so I read.
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According to radio.They still owe BMW £500M.Any wonder why new buyers are sceptical...Hate to say it but time they were laid to rest..I think its got to the point too much is or has been spent.I can think of better things that the money could be spent on..Like NHS..Just my thoughts
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Steve
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What is interesting here is that back in 2000, when BMW pulled the plug on Rover, one of the bidders, Alchemy group, was vilified for its proposal to rebrand Rover, and produce sports cars under the MG badge, resulting in massive job losses.
I think, in hindsite, this would have been Rover's best option ....
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I hate to say I told you so but at the time I told you so.
The deal would never have happened though as Byers (yes it was he) could barely hide his distaste for (boo hiss) capitalists wou would be looking to make a (gasp) profit.
Plus it would have meant redundancies at the time and Byers would never have agreed to that on his shift even if it was in the long term interests of the company.
The government only needs another month of pretending to keep it afloat, talks can be strung out that long surely, then likely it will collapse. They can't rescue it under EU rules, the French somehow can under EU rules but we can't as we actually take then seriously. Phony Tony can carry the can as he's not long for the political world anyway. Next head of UN perchance?
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Today I was glancing through the Sunday Times Rich List for 2005.
There are quite a number of multi-billionnaires in Britain, the richest estimated to be worth £14,000 MILLION! If a group of these individuals wished, or could be persuaded, they could set up a consortium to buy MG Rover, invest in factories here and abroad, poach the best designers and managers, develop proper new models etc. These super rich could run it almost as a hobby like us normal people might join a car club!
Cheers, SS
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"If a group of these individuals wished, or could be persuaded, they could set up a consortium to buy MG Rover,"
They are that rich because they don't waste their money on daft schemes like that!!! :)
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Is this not exactly whats happening with TVR?
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There is Gross (20%) overcapacity in European car production and it's getting worse.
Rover has not made a profit for years and years and years.
It used to employ 10,000s now it's 6,000.
It used to have a 25% market share now it's 3% if its lucky.
Time for some rationalisation.
And before people get weepy about losing UK jobs, remember IF you want to invest in jobs, invest in a business that has a chance:
1. of growing
2. of making profits.
Then you might get your money back and see more employment.
Investing in Rover over the past 20 years has been the equivalent of pouring £100 notes into the sea: and look at what it has achieved. NOTHING.
Waste of time to debate it. Time for euthenasia.
madf
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Have a look at:
www.austin-rover.co.uk
for some in-depth news on this saga !
Here are some interesting bits:
The MG marque has been sold to SAIC, so MG-Rover will have to lease back the right to use the MG badge.
SAIC have bought the K-series engine family, but not the updated L-series diesel engines - the common-rail update of the L-Series, set to replace BMW's unit, is moving to India as part of a deal with Sonalika.
The K-series engine manufacturing operation will be shipped out next year, building engines ranging from 1.1 litres to a new 2.0-litre unit as well as the 2.5 KV6. So, presumably, the new mid-size car and the 75 will use imported K-series engines from China...
The Rover 25 has been sold outright to SAIC, and production will end in the UK. Rover 45s will continue to be made in the UK until the car is phased out.
The 75 production line will be split, with China building a moderately stretched version of the 75, while Longbridge sticks with the standard and long-wheelbase 75s.
Phoenix Venture Holdings will be left with the ownership of the TF roadster, the SV supercar, MG Sport and Racing and the deal to import the CityRover from Indian maker Tata.
There will be substantial job cuts as a result...
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Rover sales for March are 28.5% down, MG sales up 2.2% up. Sales so far this year for Rover are down 33%, MG sales 10% up. It could be worse, Fiat are down 52% this year so far.
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I hope that the Rover deal comes off with SAIC, a lot of people will suffer otherwise, however I can't help wondering how many jobs would still be safe and for how long if SAIC took over Rover? An aside, the most reliable car I have EVER owned, and I have owned many marques, was a 1994 218 SLD! (1.8 Turbo Diesel), good luck to all at Rover.
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You mean the Honda Concerto with the Peugeot XUDT engine?
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Unfortunately Rover has probably 'had it'. It went beyond the point of no return a few years ago, and the present management have simply used the situation to enrich themselves.
The problem came years ago during Thatcher's time when the company was starved of money and was put on the 'slow drip' for ideological reasons. Having worked at BL/ARG I saw how badly engineered a lot of the products were. There were managers, marketeers and accountants all over the place, but few engineers. The line operatives ("workers") were conveniently blamed for any production problems and provoked into industrial action more than once (I saw this with my own eyes). Management treated the place like a 'gentleman's club' and the executive dining room (free booze on tap) was busy at 10.30am!
I remember working on engine management at the time (in VPE - vehicle and powertrain electronics) and we were designing stuff, but there were no technicians employed to build the prototypes etc. - so we had to do that ourselves. The accountants had come up with no less than 19 different ways to cost each component! - so we could never figure out how much anything cost. There was too much playing with figures and not enough engineering - not enough people 'adding value' - this is the 'British Disease'. Still, too late now, the best bits have been picked off by others.
To all the 'free marketeers' who praise the Chinese, just remember that China is a communist country. I have visit companies there and absolutely every enterprise of any scale is government controlled with 'functionaries' pulling the strings. Money is being poured in from the West (about 80% of new investment is from overseas, but always with Chinese in control) and the Chinese are refusing to unlock their currency from the Dollar (to the annoyance of the US). It is the complete anti-thesis of a 'free market economy', but we all seem happy enough to play along with it..... Just remember they have the world's biggest army.
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"The problem came years ago during Thatcher's time"
Tad too convenient
Austin/BL/ROVER/MG call it what you will, all the component companies that eventually made up the group were all basket cases long before maggie came to power.
The seeds of the current crisis were sown shortly after the war.
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"The problem came years ago during Thatcher's time" Tad too convenient Austin/BL/ROVER/MG call it what you will, all the component companies that eventually made up the group were all basket cases long before maggie came to power. The seeds of the current crisis were sown shortly after the war.
Sorry, I disagree. The Austin_Morris's etc. of the 1970's were not great cars, but we forget how bad some of the other brands were too (the Fords and Vauxhalls of the time - or the rusting Audi's). In the 1970's we were replacing clutches and diffs in Cortinas with 12k on the clock. Vauxhalls were rusty after a couple of years and cams knocked through followers in 20k miles.
Austin-Rover was technically competent at this time and certainly no worse than some of the competition that has gone on to prosper (e.g. Renault, Peugeot). Its technical capability was ripped out of it in the '80's in the belief that it would just eventually become a Honda assembly plant and 'Roverise' Honda-designed products.
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The group (and its individual parts) have been a marketing design and finance nightmare since the late 50's early 60's. Its made up of a group of failed companies. Look at the group history. Ok its mostly a management failure it has to be said.
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The head of Alchemy Jon Moulton is quoted in the Telegraph today.
'I wouldn't buy it for a pound' and 'I can't understand why the Chinese are interested'.
OOOH. Saucer of milk...
Also, I know its fashionable to blame Thatcher for everything including the death of Christ these days but to blame her for the plight of BMC is just wrong. It was a total basket case way before she came to power. You can say 'it was denied investment' during her governmnet term or you can say 'she flat refused to pour even more public money in to a black hole'.
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Here's a novel idea. Instead of blaming Thatcher for not "Investing" in BL, why not blame BL for not selling enough cars to generate the profits so they could invest in themselves?
You know, like most other companies in the world have to.
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One of my sad work mates who goes on about how superior german cars are, just taken del of a new A4, but oh dear its rained today and he found water leaking into the passenger footwell, laugh I havent stopped laughing all day.
AR products in the seventies and eighties werent great products but Rover products from the nineties onwards were pretty good, I owned a few and in many respects were better than the competition of the time.
Problem is Rover suffer from ill informed blind pregidice from ignorant people and the press.
The product range may be ageing but overall they are still not bad cars, the K series engine range is still better than some engines offered by the big manufacturers.
MGR needs investment and a partner no doubt about that but given that,I think they could turn out some good products and be profitable.
This country needs a manufacturing base, and we need jobs for are children that dont just involve flipping burgers in Macs or working in a call centre which will probably get transferred to India soon anyway.
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Problem is Rover suffer from ill informed blind pregidice from ignorant people and the press.
Er, no. Rover failed to produce a product that people were prepared to pay the asking price for. That is why they are in the predicament they are in today.
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>> >> Problem is Rover suffer from ill informed blind pregidice from ignorant >> people and the press. >> Er, no. Rover failed to produce a product that people were prepared to pay the asking price for. That is why they are in the predicament they are in today.
Your argument is too simplistic, but you seem only to understand the concept of a profit and loss balence sheet and nothing else matters to you OK thats your viewpoint, something I strongly disagree with. No doubt one of these people who say yes lets get rid of our manufactuiring industry because it not profitable this or next year but then complians about all the umeployment benefit that being paid to the resulting workers put on the dole.
I will still defy anyone to say that there is no pregadice against MGR and UK manufacturers in general. The press attack MGR on a regular basis, I have lost count of the number of people who oh Rovers are crap I wouldn't buy one those despite the fact they have never driven one. Then you get others who having travelled in my Rover saying oh its quite a nice car really.
Still lets stick with the myth British cars are bad, German cars are fantastic, unless of course its a BMW 1 series that might stretching the myth a bit too far.
And as a final point lets not forget that some of the other Car manufacturers are reported to be in pretty poor financial state including Fiat, General Motors and Ford
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Still lets stick with the myth British cars are bad, German cars are fantastic, unless of course its a BMW 1 series that might stretching the myth a bit too far.
Agree with your previous post that the 90's Rovers were OK, and that OK not all German cars are bulletproof.
Rover had sort of sorted themselves out by the early 1990's. But loss of market share has its seeds in charging too much and pitching the products at the wrong market e.g. Rover 200 (Bubble shape) against Escort class, Rover 400 against Mondeo. Schoolboy error.
Hindsight's great isn't it?
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>including the death of Christ
No, that was Norman Tebbit.
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Good, bad or whatever.
People do not want AR cars and therefore they do not have a future.
As stated earlier in this thread I want a 75 V8, but I am not going to put my hard earned up when AR might go belly up tomorrow.
Also, what makes Rover workers so special? Again as previously stated I worked in insurance. My job could be done cheaper elsewhere, therefore I lost my job. That is tough, but the way the world is. Why should Rover workers be any different from all the workers that provide input to this forum for example?
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MG Man,
It does not matter how good your companies products are. If you cannot persuade people to buy them you will fail. Anyone with business experience will tell you that expertise in your chosen field is only 50% of the route to success, the rest comes with making the right fincial and marketing decisions and presenting your products in a way that will make people want to buy them. Rover have failed in that respect, and have developed an image of producing undesireable cars that appeal to few. Whether the cars are good, bad or indifferent is neither here nor there, it's how people perceive them that matters.
I read the papers and watch TV on a daily basis, and I fail to see where this media prejudice you mention keeps appearing. Rover get no better or worse a press than any company, all the stories I have read recently are reporting on their financial plight rather than knocking their cars. I will also add that an opinion to that effect does not indicate that I hold a death wish for British Industry.
For an example of how to overcome being saddled with a name that became a laughing stock in it's field, Rover would have done well to have studied how Triumph Motorcycles have become a company whose products are respected the world over, to the extent that there is a waiting list for Triumph Bonavelles in Japan.
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Ah, but a lot of rich people squander money once they've 'arrived'. They don't all keep their money in a jam jar under their bed.
I'd imagine the only interest British buyers have in MG Rover's future is in retaining a British mass market car manufacturer. If the cars aren't up to the competition, patriotism alone won't save MGR. Despite the recent computer generated images in Auto Express, the question is probably whether MGR can survive until the next facelift of their current model range.
If I was to run this fantasy billionaire's consortium I'd shift production of the current range to, say, China to sell as a budget brand. Then I'd set up a new operation in Britain to build 2 distinct ranges of new models, Rover and MG, based on common platforms and drivetrains but with different styling, like VW, Skoda and Seat.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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i totally pplaud the idea to give the cars more basic kit, eg - leather, air con, alloys, cd player as standard.
but to sell them at a list price of £8995!
its more or less a ten year old car!
the list price for the 25 should be a more realistic 6995 - with dealers knocking them out for 6 grand with discount.
thats how you ell old cars, not by silly inflated prices.
the city rover should stop being sold in basic solo format, should be in spirit as basic and start from 5,495 to match the picanto.
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'Can not see beyond a profit and loss account'.
No we can't but thats because we live in the real world where if you don't make a profit for whatever reason you go broke. Why is this such a difficult concept for some people to grasp? I truely cannot believe that we are having this conversation in 2005. Did we not learn the lessons of the 1970's?
As to never having driven any BMC/Rover vehicles oh contrare, having had company cars throughout the 70's/80's and working for companies that for a lot of that time had British made only policies I can tell you I have driven many BMC products and they were always inferior to their contemporaries. I think the biggest disparity was between the Montego and the Sierra, like night and day. BMC was kept afloat by a ring fenced market that meant UK individual consumer prices were artifically high (the honeypot) and massive fleet sales at knock down prices where the drivers were not user/chosers. As soon as we had a choice we shopped elsewhere.
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"Your argument is too simplistic, but you seem only to understand the concept of a profit and loss balence sheet and nothing else matters to you OK thats your viewpoint, something I strongly disagree with."
You may disagree with it BUT
Profit
That is the one and only very simple reason for any commercial company to exist. Rover is a commercial company, It does not provide a service funded by the tax payer. No profit and it ceases to exist.
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Check out today's D/Telegraph....
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Turning Back The Clock is a very illuminating read. It is amazing to look back and see how the whole industry treated it's customers and it's dealers with total contempt, virtually telling them to think themselves lucky they were getting any cars at all, and if they didn't like it then they could lump it.
The motorcycle industry mirrored that attitude exactly, which is how we have arrived at our present situation.
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One of Rover's problems is reality;
[It] believes that people should buy a car for reasons other than the fact that they like it, its a good car, and its good value.
And [it] believes that a company should exist irrespective of its viability. (some kind of death grip on the old days of the empire, I think)
It needs to live or die on its merits, as do its cars.
And it will die, removing an agonising, slow and boring expiration which has dragged on for about 30 years longer than it should have done and removing a permanent drain on the country, albeit replacing it with a temporary one.
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The last paragrpah sums it up for me.
I love my country and Rover is one of the last ways that we acted like the French, by supporting one group (i.e. farmers) at the expense of the rest of the population.
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LFD,
Always remember that the French do not subsidise their farmers, they could not afford to do so, we and the Germans (being the only two major net contributors to the EU) subsidise French farmers.
The Germans being in the economic mess they are are baulking at the cost of the EU, UK £3 billion rebate will be surrendered by phony Tony soon and then they will be looking for more...
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A few posts back up the line someone dismissed the diabolical situation at British Leyland 20-odd years ago by saying something like 'the cars (they made) in the 70s and 80s weren't very good'.
Well, that throw-away remark sums up the whole sad saga, don't you think? Indeed they weren't very good, in fact they were mostly rubbish but British Leyland didn't have any qualms about misleading buyers like me, trying to support British industry, into parting with their precious cash.
Sadly, I don't believe all the faults lay with management. The workforce didn't seem to care about quality either and it showed. I remember well the semi-functioning gear selectors and 'fall-apart' interiors in various models, and the two-year-old Princess that had internal rust breaking through the front apron just before the low mileage 'O' series engine died.
I was lucky - managed to escape to Honda. And we know how so-called Rover managed to bite that particular hand that fed it well.
Maybe it's time for the Longbridge workforce to face reality, as most of us have had to at some time. Career changes aren't necessarily disastrous, particularly when a government is prepared to throw money at helping you start again.
Incidentally, where do you stand on claiming benefits when your NI contributions haven't been passed on, even though you've paid them? If this was an everyday small business wouldn't the Official Receiver and the Fraud Squad be called in?
And it would be interesting for someone on this forum who is VAT-registered to announce that they won't be passing on the money they have collected to Customs and Excise for a while because things are a bit tight, and to see how far they get...
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Let me answer the questions:
If your NI contributions have not been paid to the government then it is the same as them not being paid at all. That you have paid them to someone is irrelevent.
Not passing VAT to C&E at the due date? Likely they will come through your front door with sledgehammers and remove all goods on the premises that are saleable.
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Production had now been suspended at MG-Rover as supplies of some parts have run out. It seems the suppliers don't want to supply because they might not get paid, was this last day ever of production ?
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Production had now been suspended at MG-Rover as supplies of some parts have run out. It seems the suppliers don't want to supply because they might not get paid, was this last day ever of production ?
Yup on the BBC news web site. Its falling apart rapidly now.
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Why don't they float the company on the stock market to raise some cash?
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Why don't they float the company on the stock market to raise some cash?
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Because hardly anyone would subscribe for the shares and an expensive float (assuming they could find anyone to underwrite it) would fail.
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I can remember when British Leyland WAS on the stock market - and the shares were 3p each
Don't think they'll want to try that again
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Bet that won't stop pre-election bung from HMG though.
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when the seniorCivil servant for the DTI says no and then apparently is going to resign over the issue, the last thing the Gov't need is a bung and then for the takeover not to work!. Pre election as well.
They must be desperate for cash and suppliers saying pay or we will not deliver means £100M is probably not enough - that may be enough to pay the overdue suppliers but one I saw on TV said cash with order last night.
I think we hear the death knell...
madf
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Just found this brochure produced c1980(?).
I suppose the answer to the statement on the front cover is billions sadly.
i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/LiveForTheDay/Rover...g
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Regarding the proposed bung/loan/bailout: As I understand it, this has to be decided before parliament is prorogued (i.e. next Monday) as after that date the Government no longer has the authority to make such an offer. Of course, the government aren't actually that interested in saving MGR, just appearing to.
With production already stopped, it looks as this will all be decided one way or another by the beginning of next week. Reports at the start of the week named Friday as the possible day to call the receivers in and if production has indeed come to a complete halt due to lack of money (many suppliers only gave MGR parts on a money upfront basis anyway) then I can see that prediction working out.
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It's bad news for those who own Rovers. Second-hand values will plummet.
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1) The directors will have to move quickly as if they are trading insolvently, they can be held personally liable. I cannot see them (or for that matter anyone with a brain) putting their millions at risk in this way.
2) I think the government could spin this to look OK as they will be the ones that refused to throw more money at the firm.
(Sorry mods, more politics/finance than motoring)
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How surprising that the subject of subsidising Rover has come up during an election ...
NOT!
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Just found this brochure produced c1980(?).
It was 1980. It was the one they gave away at that year's Motor Show (the last one I went to) where they launched the mini Metro, as it was originally called.
Returning to topic, a lot of these posts imply that there was never any recovery from the disastrous seventies and mediocre eighties. In fact, with Honda's input, Rover was looking like a viable business by the early nineties. Such was the company's confidence that it (foolishly) started offering its workers lifetime contracts.
The real villain isn't the unions, which were neutered by the Thatcher governments, or even Rover's management, which seems to have made the best of a bad job. It was BAe Systems, who sold the company to BMW and bit the Honda hand that fed it.
Having said all this, the talk of Rover's possible demise prompted me to revisit the excellent www.austin-rover.co.uk . One shock is the scale of the decline of the company to the rump that's left at Longbridge now. BL/BMC/BLMC was a true multi-national company for part of its history. See www.austin-rover.co.uk/awindexf.htm for details.
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Perhaps a spell in administration would be a good thing for them. Receivers are far more ruthless and will stand a lot less nonsense and may be able to see a profitable part of rover that can remain. The rest should just get binned. The MG side of things should be kept and all rover versions binned apart from the 75 which is a fine car. High volume mass market is a vicious trade and should be left to those that can do it well. Niche market and special market are a much better proposition. How about having cars that were aimed entirely at the disabled user? No other manufacturer does that as far as I know.
teabelly
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Its not only Rover we should be concerned about, they are just one of hundreds if not thousands of small firms who have been driven to the wall in open markets with no possibility of competing against third world low labour cost economies.
Many major industries have gone from Britain because they simply can?t compete and no-one can say that its because the products weren?t good enough.
Our shipyards produced the finest in the world bar none. But how could they compete when even our Government placed orders for Military vessels abroad.
Our Merchant Navy was the biggest in the world and forced out by flags of convenience ships manned by cheap labour.
And even placing orders to Germany to modify our British Army rifles.
My home town which had 40 to 50 factories producing textiles has all gone. Now the emphasis being a World heritage Centre is to promote tourism. Big deal?
We could go on for ever citing examples of Politicians being unable or uninterested in maintaining the position of being a manufacturing nation. But never mind we can get by with people finding jobs in the service sector?? Alas no.
The warning signs are there for all to see. Only yesterday my brother who is in business tells me of two friends who own their own haulage business going out of business. Not selling out, as no-one would buy them but simply because of East Europeans doing the work cheaper.
Ok lets all find jobs in the high tech business. Unfortunately many of these third world countries have students emerging every bit and perhaps even brighter than our own.
And because the Government is telling our young people they should all go to University we have people who would be categorised as Dunces in my day swanning off expecting to be automatically head hunted afterwards and never getting their hands dirty. It does the Government a favour of course in keeping the unemployment numbers down for the time being.
But I?m forgetting the huge advantages of being in the EU. They will take care of all these problems and introducing a raft of new members will benefit us. The same as they helped our lads not having to go to sea any more with our fishing fleet.
Rover is just one more company going out of business and every day the same is happening but they are one who we all know and some care about. Its no good our Government acting as if we are all in a Gentlemans club and we all abide by the rules. Others don?t play fair and we should look after our own
The ones with children should be thinking now just what jobs will be available for them in the future.
My uneducated guess is that in the next decade protectionism will become inevitable among Western nations (and necessary) and that will set the cat among the pigeons as it did in 1941.
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If you want a fully protected market where profit doesn't matter and you don't need to compete take a look at North Korea: their economy is doing wonderfully well. Alternatively, take a look at Britain in the 1960's - apart from a bit more political freedom you'd probably be hard pressed to tell them apart.
Where would you suggest pulling up the drawbridge? Dover? Current EU borders? Watford Gap Service Station? What about the thousands of UK firms who currently export (not to mention the billions of UK money invested abroad) when our export markets treat us the same way?
What rules would you like the government to break? How does the Government get round the fundamental problems that MG Rover has not & does not MAKE A PROFIT? What the hell has the government got to do with a privately owned company anyway?
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Welliesorter......Incredible wasn't it.
Made me feel a bit sad that the legacy is reaching the end game and turning into nothing. That is the Rover legacy and not the Subaru.......
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Consumers will accept protectionism to an extent: see the Common Agricultural Policy which adds 30 to 50% to the price of food..
but if you then want us to buy cars 25% more expensive than anyone else - a pricing policy supported tacitly by Governments of all hues in order to support Austin/Rover - turn the clock back 5 years.
When consumers taste freedom of choice, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle.
Next we'll have people telling us how Britsh Built computers are best - based on Lyons in the 1950s.
Lets face it, Rover is a very small sideshow and in UK economic terms matters nothing - 60,000 cars a year out of a market of 2 million: peanuts.
As far as MG is concerned, that has no future either. Unless it ends up like a TVR type concern. The volumes are miniscule.
In the long term economics will out. (The French sorted out Renault who then sorted Nissan..we never sorted Rover out - ever!)
madf
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I'm not getting in on the politic's of the Rover situation but today i was speaking with the sales manager of the Rover dealer next door to our showroom and he has just ordered 200 vehicles from stock as he is fairly confident that time is pretty much up for Rover. They are pretty far down the road of agreeing a new franchise and these cars will tide him over the transistional period.
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Did he get a mega deal?
PS: I know this is an impertinent question, but my thoughts are on bagging a V8 as mentioned earlier in this thread.
In fact could HJ give any advice on the best way of buying a new Rover now the end game appears to have been reached? I am with funds, so would an auction be a good idea? If so how long would he wait and which auction would he recommend?
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>>>>(The French sorted out Renault who then sorted Nissan..we never sorted Rover out - ever!)<<<<
I have always wondered about why Rover is in the state it's in when the French have Peugeot/Citroen and Renault.
I assumed it was because they were propped up by the French Govt
If this is not the case, what did they do to preserve their volume car makers?
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>>>>(The French sorted out Renault who then sorted Nissan..we never sorted Rover out - ever!)<<<< I have always wondered about why Rover is in the state it's in when the French have Peugeot/Citroen and Renault. I assumed it was because they were propped up by the French Govt If this is not the case, what did they do to preserve their volume car makers?
Renualt is partly owned by the French government, but PSA are a private company - www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/psa_espace/ownershi...p
The French have kept their car industry going by producing good products, continuing to innovate and getting their prices right. French cars sell well throughout Europe - Rovers don't.
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It seems they've suspended/stopped production.
Sic transit...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4420507.stm
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The French have kept their car industry going by producing good products, continuing to innovate and getting their prices right. French cars sell well throughout Europe - Rovers don't.
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It wasn't always the case with Renault.
It will be a shame if MG Rover go under. Apparently, our new car market is the fourth largest in the world and yet we can't support a single, home produced, volume car maker.
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It will be a shame if MG Rover go under. Apparently, our new car market is the fourth largest in the world and yet we can't support a single, home produced, volume car maker.
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Perhaps MG Rover should have supported the British public by selling the cars at proper prices instead of thousands more than they did in mainland Europe. You could import one from France far cheaper than you could by one from the dealer half a mile from the factory. Even now the cars are far to expensive and have poor equipment levels.
Sad to see them go but its all their own fault.
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Honda and Toyota are both 'home produced' by British workers - and sell well on their merits...
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