Reports after the recent gales said 25 lorries were blown over on the A1M near Darlington and a further 10 on the M6 in Cumbria.
While accepting that high sided vehicles would become uncontrollable in these conditions and would have to stop until conditions improved I feel that commercial considerations may be overshadowing safety in the design parameters that they can be blown over with apparent ease.I accept the winds were exceptional but we get these reports as a result of lower wind speeds than Frid/Sat ths week.
ndbw
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What beats me is why they carry on regardless. They were not surprised by freak weather conditions -- there was a Severe Weather warning the night before, with indications of expected wind speeds. Isn't it then a touch foolhardy to venture forth in a mobile tent? What about any poor sod who happened to be alongside one of these when it toppled?
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High-sided vehicles, exposed stretches and strong winds have never been compatible yet, as Stripey rightly points out, the lesson never seems to have been learned.
Perhaps a case for prosecuting the drivers on the grounds of, for example, not driving with due consideration for other road users?
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Heard a truck driver on Radio Cumbria yesterday talking about having driven in both directions over Shap on the M6 on Friday night.
He said the conditions were appalling, the motorway should have been closed as it clearly wasn't safe to be driving on it in a high sided vehicle.
It didn't seem to have occurred to him that he had a fairly immediate solution available to him at the time.
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I think you are being a bit simplistic here, how is the driver supposed to know if the wind is going to be that strong that it will blow his truck over? And I can just imagine it now - driver says to his boss: I'm stopping in today because its a bit windy outside, what do you think his boss would say? I know what it would be, collect your P45 on your way out of the door. If life stopped every twist and turn just because something 'could' go wrong, then we would never get anywhere or do anything.
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Maybe so. But some 20 lorries did get blown over on the M6 during the storm, along with a similar number on the A1/M.
Perhaps it's the bosses who should be taking a more considered view of when it is safe to send drivers out - they might if they had to pay for the damage done to their vehicles rather than their insurers. There was, after all, plenty of warning of the high winds and plenty of coverage of the chaos they were causing at the time, at least locally.
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Could have been a case of the "It couldn't happen to me" syndrome in the case of the drivers whose vehicles ended up on their sides.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Don't forget as well, that a good proportion of loads carried by lorries are working towards agreed contractual deadlines and if the load is not delivered or misses its unloading time slot then the haulier can be fined a siginificant proportion of money for not getting the goods there on time. Unfortunately this is now quite commonplace in the haulage industry and is part of what we demand as consumers. I blame it on the compensation culture we now live in - everyone wants something for nothing.
For example say you were waiting in for a fridge freezer to be delivered to your house that was arranged to be delivered on Thursday AM, and the retailer you have bought it from rings up and says that they will not be delivering it because it is a bit windy and there is a small chance the truck could have an accident. The first thing you would do is fly off the handle, argue that the chances are it might not, and then probably demand some compensation of a free-be of some description. Think about it, it is the same situation at the end of the day.
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A lorry lying on its side is delivering nothing.
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I'm not suggesting that a haulier needs to apply caution to that degree, but as Stripey points out, it was more that a 'bit' windy at the time (I know, I was out in it - on foot), and I would be just as upset to find out that my fridge freezer was scattered all over the fast lane somewhere. Further, what price the driver's life?
Agree about the compensation culture, though. Some of the coverage on radio here yesterday was about how much compensation United Utilities customers could expect for loss of electricity supply - nothing about the poor beggars who were out there trying to restore it.
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Warnings of 'severe weather' with estimated wind speeds of 90 plus suggest more than a bit windy! Anyone who sets out in such a vehicle, knowing the expected wind conditions and against police advice the same day is simply reckless with other people's lives. Now that's simplistic!
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And I presume that when we all watch the weather in the evening and the presenter says that temperatures will plummet below zero degrees, it will be icy and create difficult driving conditions all of us car drivers suddenly abandon whatever plans we may have however important and stop in just in case we have an accident due to some ice.
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High-sided vehicles are more likely to get blown over whren empty, when there's less weight on board.
I was once behind a 7.5 ton boxvan as it emerged from tree shelter into a severe squall on an exposed stretch. The driver slowed right down and stopped, but still the vehicle was on the edge of being blown over.
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There's a thought.
Is a moving lorry more likely to get blown over than a stationary one?
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>>Is a moving lorry more likely to get blown over than a stationary one?
What seems to have been missed here. is not just the side impact of crosswinds..they tend to lift the vehicle from the road.Being the force behind a gust.It stands to reason it becomes unstable.Making steering in most cases almost impossible..To put simply the wind controls vehicle not the driver. And as some drivers of vans and artics tend to try to keep up their speed instead of slowing down..Ie to a point they are comfortable in controlling.It is no wonder so many lose control.
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Steve
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I've seen empty curtainsiders being driven in high winds with the curtains roped back securely, so the vehicle offers much less resistance to sidewinds. Seems a sensible precaution.
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I couldn't agree more, but have heard reports of drivers being penalised by their employers for this as it doesn't display the adverts on the curtainsides.
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I read often, only post occasionally
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The large supermarket who I work for has a distribution depot where suppliers deliver to. They all have window times to deliver and if they are outwith those times, their load gets rejected.
If you imagine the cost of a full trailer of persishable items and then think what the supplying company would feel if they had to take this back as it could not be delivered. There is also some sort of points system so the more late / missed deliveries results in penalties being applied.
You can see why the pressure is on the drivers to deliver, no matter what the risks are.
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A fairly predictable set of opinions here. But in response to Simon's early question >how is the driver supposed to know if the wind is going to be that strong that it will blow his truck over?<, I would hope that he was (a) aware of forecasts and warnings of bad driving conditions, and (b) skilled enough in driving his vehicle to feel when it was threatened, and would slow down or if necessary take shelter. The decision rests with him, not his manager who is probably in a nice cosy office somewhere.
I drove the A1 last year, when it was littered in the Durham area with toppled trucks. Memories are short, and perhaps driving skills and commonsense are not that high. But maybe the sad death in N.Ireland will concentrate minds.
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A fairly predictable set of opinions here. But in response to Simon's early question >how is the driver supposed to know if the wind is going to be that strong that it will blow his truck over?<, I would hope that he was (a) aware of forecasts and warnings of bad driving conditions, and (b) skilled enough in driving his vehicle to feel when it was threatened, and would slow down or if necessary take shelter. The decision rests with him, not his manager who is probably in a nice cosy office somewhere. I drove the A1 last year, when it was littered in the Durham area with toppled trucks. Memories are short, and perhaps driving skills and commonsense are not that high. But maybe the sad death in N.Ireland will concentrate minds.
Also 2 others yesterday - one a car driver who had a lorry topple on to him according to the police statement.
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Just about everyone in the land knows that these lorries get blown over in high winds..
There were constant warnings of the severe gales expected in the North.
High sided vehicles are banned from bridges like the Severn bridge when the wind are above a certain level. Now I wonder why!!
I can understand there are some drivers too stupid to realise the dangers to themselves and their vehicle in these conditions.
There are others I suspect who are unconcerned by the danger they pose to other road users.
Sure there are pressures for some to deliver their goods on time - but probably a minority of the 40 or so who got blown over.
A premeditated act of driving in a manner likely to endanger other road users cannot be justified under any circumstances; and the police should investigate each case with a view to prosecution.
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A premeditated act of driving in a manner likely to endanger other road users cannot be justified under any circumstances; and the police should investigate each case with a view to prosecution.
So the next time someone drives when snow or ice is forecast should the police investigate? Get real !!
One of the problems is that we do not have the facility to have accurate local forecasts. So a warning of strong winds is very general, 98% of roads may be safe but on the other 2%, a single lorry may be blown over? To avoid this should all 100% of journeys not have happened?
In Scotland we generally have forecasts saying "windy in the North and West". That covers the M8 urban motorway, and also driving through Glencoe mountains!! So which one is windy?
I think rather than simply blaming all these people, we should thank them for doing everything in their power to get their supplies through.
I can assure you, if an announcement was made that every lorry journey for the next 3 days had to be cancelled, a vast majority of you would jump into your cars, drive out into the horrendous winds, taking care to avoid all the flying debris on the roads, down to your nearest supermarket, and clean the shelves out.
[I wouldn't of course as I would already be made to work in the supermarket by my employers]
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A premeditated act of driving in a manner likely to endanger other road users cannot be justified under any circumstances; and the police should investigate each case with a view to prosecution. So the next time someone drives when snow or ice is forecast should the police investigate? Get real !! One of the problems is that we do not have the facility to have accurate local forecasts. So a warning of strong winds is very general, 98% of roads may be safe but on the other 2%, a single lorry may be blown over? To avoid this should all 100% of journeys not have happened? In Scotland we generally have forecasts saying "windy in the North and West". That covers the M8 urban motorway, and also driving through Glencoe mountains!! So which one is windy? I think rather than simply blaming all these people, we should thank them for doing everything in their power to get their supplies through. I can assure you, if an announcement was made that every lorry journey for the next 3 days had to be cancelled, a vast majority of you would jump into your cars, drive out into the horrendous winds, taking care to avoid all the flying debris on the roads, down to your nearest supermarket, and clean the shelves out. [I wouldn't of course as I would already be made to work in the supermarket by my employers]
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Looked at a weather map? They have them on TV!
Isobars close together mean high winds - big arrows over the whole of the North of Great Britain mean the same thing. No they can't narrow it down to a specific section of road.
Just in case that isn't sufficient the Met Office issue warnings of high winds, dangerous conditions and advice not to drive - and that is for cars let alone lorries.
These conditions last for no more than a day or so - I hardly think the supermarkets will run out of everything by then ? and of course all 40 or so lorries were delivering perishable goods to supermarkets. You make them sound like the heroic wartime merchant seamen on a North Atlantic on the convoys to Russia - and even they didn't leave port if the wind was too high.
Rather than thanking these lorry drivers for their foolhardy actions in endangering themselves, and everyone else in their vicinity, they should be deterred from going on the roads. The reason? they are dangerous!!
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BobbyG's ice argument is a non-starter. If the journey is really necessary, you can at least minimise the risk by adjusting your driving, crawling in the gutter at walking speed if you have to.
There is no such counter to high winds -- even a stationary lorry is at risk.
The French police do not issue warnings -- they just take high-sided vehicles off the road for the duration. Set out in one and you can end up walking home.
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Sorry -- I'd accidentally deleted a line. Meant to add that ice has countermeasures such as salting, gritting, studded tyres, snow chains ... nowt like that against wind. Some countries of course don't bat an eyelid at snow or ice -- it's only us softy Brits.
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"I can assure you, if an announcement was made that every lorry journey for the next 3 days had to be cancelled, a vast majority of you would jump into your cars, drive out into the horrendous winds, taking care to avoid all the flying debris on the roads, down to your nearest supermarket, and clean the shelves out."
Now that is a really good way to increase your Bonus
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One of those silly situations where the Construction and Use regulations specify just about everything virtually down to the size of the ashtrays, but do not include a stability test.
Maybe something on the lines of "An unloaded vehicle shall remain upright when subjected to a side wind of (say) 40mph" would influence design to increase stability.
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With the current storm about to hit the North, what is the estimate for how many will be blown over this time?
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Could not agree more BrianW,perhaps after the latest incident in Ireland where a lorry has been blown off a 100ft high bridge killing the driver we can expect a closer look at const.and use regs.
ndbw
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I often hear radio reports that the Foyle bridge has been closed due to high winds. With the forecast since last night predicting winds of up to 90 mph in that area, I cannot understand how it wasn't closed today. What a senseless loss of life.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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It doesn't help that the forecasts can frequently be way off reality.
e.g. My local forecaster stated "torrential rain" for (Saturday or Sunday, forget which now) - not a single drop, or trace of overnight rain.
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Question for the legal minds among you.
If Gary Hart can be imprisoned, as I understand it, for a fatal accident caused by his negligence, are we likely to see lorry drivers (or their employers) imprisoned if a lorry blows over and kills someone when weather forecasts indicated that there would be gale force winds?
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Sorry to drag this one back up, but when I came back down from Scotland on the 11th the A66 was closed to high sided vehicles and caravans according to the gantry signs and the radio, yet there was still alot of high sided vehicles using it. Those of you that have travelled this road know what it's like even on a good day.
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Davy S.
Oops, where did that screw go!!
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More roads blocked in the North today, including M6, by toppling lorries.
Self inflicted accidents?
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