Perhaps some people in the UK would prefer an large (especially good looking) Alfa with good economy. One here certainly would.
Why does the sporting image fit a BMW with a diesel engine then? It hasn't done any harm to the sales of the 156, as the 2.4 JTD in that car is very popular. I don't see why being only a 2.4 should be a problem either, as it has more power and a lot more grunt than the 2.O Twin Spark that is one of the options in the UK. For all its attributes, the 3.0 V6 is a very thirsty engine.
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In addtion, I forgot to add, diesel is much cheaper in Italy than it is in the UK, so a JTD makes even more sense in the UK.
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Bang on there Machika.
Whilst we're on the subject of certain diesels unavailable over here, was there ever a diesel Opel Calibra on the continent? If it were the 2.5 unit out of the Omega then it would have been a flyer, and would be quite cheap by now too. I remember talking to a frenchman about one years ago.
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Its especially strange when you think they didnt want to bring any Alfa diesels into the UK, now a high % (cant remember) of cars they sell are diesel. Also the new 2.4 5cyl 20v MultiJet is a sporty engine with a lovely throaty sound.
BTW the 3 series size Lancia is a Lybra (v nice)
the bigger 7 series (or maybe 5 series?) is the Thesis (v controversial)
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any Alfa diesels into the UK, now a high % (cant remember) of cars they sell are diesel. Also the new 2.4 5cyl 20v MultiJet is a sporty engine with a lovely throaty sound. BTW the 3 series size Lancia is a Lybra (v nice) the bigger 7 series (or maybe 5 series?) is the Thesis (v controversial)
I think it was a Thesis I saw and I liked it a lot.
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Alfisti have been up in arms at the failure of Alfa UK to import the 166 JTD. The latest 2.4 pumps out 175bhp and enough torque to tow a house. With the launch of a 250bhp 3.0 JTD next year in the 157/158 the excuses start to look even thinner.
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Alfisti have been up in arms at the failure of Alfa UK to import the 166 JTD. The latest 2.4 pumps out 175bhp and enough torque to tow a house. With the launch of a 250bhp 3.0 JTD next year in the 157/158 the excuses start to look even thinner.
With that kind of power, the earlier comment, about a diesel in an Alfa not fitting the sporty image, is a bit of a nonsense. With the low level of sales of the 166 in the UK, Alfa really have shot themselves in the foot on this issue, as well as disappointing a lot of people (me included).
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With that kind of power, the earlier comment, about a diesel in an Alfa not fitting the sporty image, is a bit of a nonsense.
Why is it a nonsense?
There might not be justification for that image; but what has that got to do with anything?
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It doesn't make sense because we are talking about a powerful engine here, that provides performance that fits perfectly with Alfa's sporting image. Also, you seemed to suggest that because it was only a 2.4 engine, it was inadequate in some way. In addtition, the fact that it is a diesel is irrelevant, as the whole image of diesel engines has been transformed in recent years.
As I said in an earlier post, if people can accept diesels in BMWs, which you seem to be able to do, then they can certainly accept them in Alfas.
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As I said in an earlier post, if people can accept diesels in BMWs, which you seem to be able to do, then they can certainly accept them in Alfas.
I did. Accept it that it. In fact I positively sought one out. If you nip over the www.alfaowner.com you'll find that there are a large number of long-term Alfisti seeking out JTD 147 and 156 models.
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A similar discussion has taken place about smarts and why they don't do a RHD diesel version which delivers 90 mpg. smart have considered it but the costs involved in making the diesel fit in a RHD body, coupled with a very small potential market - only the UK drive RHD diesel cars in large numbers - mean it will never happen. No doubt Alfa have the same opinion - too higher development costs for very few potential sales.
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That is assuming that there is a problem in fitting the JTD engine in a RHD car, does anyone know if this is the case? They were prepared to do it with the 2.0 Twin Spark and 3.0 V6 engines for very low volume sales (which could have been expected). I would suspect that they would sell a lot more with the JTD engine, than they ever will with the 3.0 V6 in particular.
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Jag sales struggled because they couldn't offer a diesel version to compete with the 5 series and E class. I suspect the 166 could massively increase sales if available in JTD form over here.
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It doesn't make sense because we are talking about a powerful engine here, that provides performance that fits perfectly with Alfa's sporting image. Also, you seemed to suggest that because it was only a 2.4 engine, it was inadequate in some way. In addtition, the fact that it is a diesel is irrelevant, as the whole image of diesel engines has been transformed in recent years. As I said in an earlier post, if people can accept diesels in BMWs, which you seem to be able to do, then they can certainly accept them in Alfas.
I totally agree that a powerful diesel in a 166 would be an asset to the range in UK; but I repeat I was talking about the image of Alfas in this country - (or rather UK as I have moved to the other side of the Atlantic)
Also for all the assets of a diesel - power, torque, economy etc they just don't rev.
I suspect a diesel Ferrari would not sell well for much the same reasons.
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166 looks great.
The 156 2.4 JTD produces the horse power though doesn't feel that gutsy in the 1600 - 2400 range where most TD's really shine, many 4cyl 2.0's feel subjectively more punchy below 3000rpm. Nice engine note though.
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>> >> I totally agree that a powerful diesel in a 166 would be an asset to the range in UK; but I repeat I was talking about the image of Alfas in this country - (or rather UK as I have moved to the other side of the Atlantic) Also for all the assets of a diesel - power, torque, economy etc they just don't rev. I suspect a diesel Ferrari would not sell well for much the same reasons.
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But they are popular, as No Dosh attests, and as sales will prove. As for performance, well you will have to argue the toss with someone like him who has long term experience of the engine.
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But they are popular, as No Dosh attests, and as sales will prove. As for performance, well you will have to argue the toss with someone like him who has long term experience of the engine.
machika,
Whenever there is a thread that mentions diesels the posts stream in extolling the virtues of a diesel. They make 'born again' Christian zealots seem positively apathetic!
Well I for one do not need to be convinced. I have owned and driven diesels since the days I had to pull up at the HGV pumps at 'petrol' stations in UK and have the attendants rush out to stop me putting the wrong fuel in my car. I collected the first RHD W123 Merc off the production line - a 240D - from the factory in Stuttgart etc etc.
That said, from choice, I still prefer a good petrol engine because of the ability to rev and not run out puff at 4000 revs or so. YES YES I really do know about different driving techniques required etc etc.
However the Diesel v Petrol argument has been aired endlessly in the BR so there is no point in restating views in this thread.
The original post wondered why Alfa did not import the diesel 166 and I dared to suggest that perhaps it did not fit with the sporting IMAGE of Alfa. Cue a post telling me this is nonsense and again explaining the virtues of diesels.
Well at the risk of upsetting No Dosh and other Alfisti, IMO Alfa has a poor image for reliability in UK - I accept that could now be unwarranted(despite No Dosh's experience!!) The 166 is a fine car by all accounts - even Clarkson sings its praises - but it depreciates at a huge rate. Relatively few are sold in the UK because Alfa doesn't enjoy the same reputation as its competitors in the executive market - BMW, Merc etc
Most people look upon Alfas as sports orientated cars with great looks and I therefore think it is reasoned argument to say that a diesel doesn't fit with that image. So possibly, just possibly, the marketing people Alfa UK may know what they are talking about.
C
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Most people look upon Alfas as sports orientated cars with great looks and I therefore think it is reasoned argument to say that a diesel doesn't fit with that image. So possibly, just possibly, the marketing people Alfa UK may know what they are talking about.
Despite Alfa's market share increasing dramatically in recent years with a substantial sell into the diesel market?
The argument about image could be equally applied to the 3 series BMW.
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The argument about image could be equally applied to the 3 series BMW.
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Which is more or less what I said in an earlier post, but you are the first to make any further comment on the image of BMW diesels.
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machika, Whenever there is a thread that mentions diesels the posts stream in extolling the virtues of a diesel. They make 'born again' Christian zealots seem positively apathetic!
>>The original post wondered why Alfa did not import the diesel 166 and I dared to suggest that perhaps it did not fit with the sporting IMAGE of Alfa. Cue a post telling me this is nonsense and again explaining the virtues of diesels. Most people look upon Alfas as sports orientated cars with great looks and I therefore think it is reasoned argument to say that a diesel doesn't fit with that image. So possibly, just possibly, the marketing people Alfa UK may know what they are talking about. C
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The original post was about a specific diesel engine in a specific car and this thread has mostly stuck to that specific issue. It has not really expanded into a debate about the comparitive virtues of petrol and diesel engines.
With regard to diesel engines not fitting Alfa's sporty image, why are they available in the UK in the 147, 156 and the new GT? These are not sporty cars? Have Alfa have got it wrong with these cars but are right on the button with the 166?
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Cardew, having driven most of the 156s petrol & diesel range and living with a 2.4 JTD 156 in which I do 850 miles a week, I thought given a choice I'd go for petrol. Definitely NOT, the 2.4 feels a lot faster in day to day driving, especially in the 2,000-3,000 60-80MPH bracket and frequently leaves other cars struggling. I believe 30% of Alfa sales in the UK are currently diesels.
The reason the 166 wasn't brought in as a diesel I believe are due to A. it has been around somewhile and when it started diesels were not that popular especially in the class it sits in and B. big Alfas have always had a relatively small market in the UK and I suspect it was felt that it wasn't worth gearing up for. I' guess a 166 replacement is on the horizon and I'd be surprised if that wasn't brought into the UK as a diesel, especially as the 156 has found a whole new market and become the thinking drivers choice rather than the niche they used to have.
Cheddar, I'm surprised that you feel that the JTD lacks punch 1,600-2,400RPM the boost starts around 1,800 but from their its very punchy indeed, possibly more peaky than say a VW1.9 TDI but their again it's a sports sallon and that suits the market it was designed for. Having driven the 1.9MJ in a 156 I still feel its probably one of the best diesels on the market and aside from no Auto or Selespeed couldn't see me changing....
Jim
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If you've driven an Alfa JTD and found it to be lacking below 2400 it is most likely due to contamination of the MAF. Alfa use a Bosch hot film MAF that is proving susceptible to contamination if the air filter isn't seated 100% in the housing.
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Slightly off thread incase anyone was wondering what the Lancia Lybra and Thesis look like......
www.infomotori.com/a_27_IT_290_2.html (Lybra)
www.infomotori.com/a_27_IT_2596_3.html (Thesis)
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in case anyone was wondering what the Lancia Lybra and Thesis look like
looks like they borrowed the designer of the Hyundai Sonata
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