If they are like other police forces perhaps they are implementing an equality policy. Treating car crime like a list of other issues filed under not pursued.
Leon
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Whilst I accept Full Chat that you are dying breed (Police Review 14.11.03 P24)and my heart bleeds for you, what you say isn't strictly the facts.
Humberside Police, like others, are concerned at the outcome of police pursuits and danger to Joe Public and question whether it is right to chase and possibly be involved in an accident with serious consequences when the only offence is connected with the like of documentation offences etc.
Humberside, as your Deptuty Chief explained, have decided to carry out a review to access the effect of a non pursuit policy by police vehicles.
He stated that more use would be made of the Force Helicopter
as an airborne Command and Control Centre directing resources ahead of the suspect vehicle to stop it (Stinger etc).
When the review is over then a decision will be made.
I do not entirely agree in relation to major crime but do on minor summary offences of No Tax etc.
DVD
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DVD wrote
Humberside Police, like others, are concerned at the outcome of police pursuits and danger to Joe Public and question whether it is right to chase and possibly be involved in an accident with serious consequences when the only offence is connected with the like of documentation offences etc.
This is a difficult one because I do remember an old and extremely wise traffic inspector saying many years ago "If a pursuit starts because someone's only offence is speeding then the risk to the public has just theoretically been doubled" To put this statement in context he was talking about "minor offences" as opposed to taking the pee type stuff.
One could apply the same logic to documentary offences, whatever the definition of that is. Presumably tax, insurance MOT, dodgy numberplates? You tell me.
One question I have is how does the officer know at the time of the request to stop that the only offence to be discovered will be documentary issues?
Surely he/she doesn't. The request to stop will have been as a result of some example of behaviour which means an offence has been committed or a quiet word needed in order to improve road safety. Maybe it's a result of intelligent policing and maybe, dare I say it, profiling. (Yes I know M.M!! sorry!)
Perhaps this question has arisen because of pursuits following automated ANPR checks? Well in my innocent opinion if someone does not stop when asked it is because they have something more to hide.
It's clear to me that the part of society which has no regard for the law in one aspect, eg theft, drugs, violence, anti-social behaviour, etc. will have no regard for traffic laws. Therefore a well targeted pull could often result in detection of other issues.
For reasons oft discussed our society depends upon motoring to move people and goods about. This applies even more to the criminal element and this message of a possible non pursuit policy sends a message out to the wrong people. Helicopters are expensive pieces of kit even if they are effective. I believe such a policy, if implemented, would result in an increase in overall lawlessness.
Once again middle England will be the people who suffer. They will be the people who suffer from crime and anti social behaviour, yet they will also be the people who stop when asked and put their hands up.
I've said it before and say it again and Fullchat I know this is not the doing of the troops on the street but......
The Government can govern and the police can police only with the consent of the people. I truly fear that a significant part of the country is about to withdraw that consent.
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Meanwhile, Police in Yeovil are threatening to prosecute (or is that persecute) children for riding electric scooters on the pavement.
Just what is Great about this Britain that we live in?
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In my humble opinion if the kids riding electric scooters on the pavement are not controlled and made aware of their antisocial behaviour they grow up to become the toerags who steal cars and put lives at risk with police chases
In my day we were given a belt round the ear by the local copper for riding bike without lights etc and we got a thump from dad if the police came to the house - We learned respect for authority which is lacking today.That was when Britain was Great.
Deep breathing , rant over.
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You're quite right, helicopter. But the funny thing is that despite all the horrendous tales I see, hear and read on TV and this chatroom, I still manage to exist in a pretty ordinary part of 'GB' without coming up against the toerags, scum and other anti-social pondlife we talk about. There certainly appear to be lots of pondlife who are happy to detest 'society' while depending on it for many of their daily needs. The rest of us should start providing those needs less willingly.
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I live in a pretty ordinary area of Britain but I have had the usual - car radio stolen , abandoned cars in the street etc.
My policy is to support the police but it is too easy for them to ignore the so called 'minor 'crimes which gives the wrong message to the criminals and which affect and upset the vast majority of law abiding citizens - I don't count myself as particularly law abiding cos I seem to remember I exceeded the speed limit once.
I really do believe that we should have more police out of cars and onto streets and building up their knowledge on the beat.
I don't believe in 'zero tolerance' either but I do wish we could have a bit of common sense now and again.
Do you recognise this scenario - abandoned car , looked like someones pride and joy with police aware sticker. Next day car has broken windows, glass strewn over large area. Next day scorched lump of metal.This happened this week in my quiet area of Sussex and I'm sure it's happening in an area near to you -
Why not remove the car to police pound and save the cost of fire service attending and removal by scrap dealer
Takes more calming down pills , phones re Yoga evening classes.
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suggest that if police ever get back on our streets in visible numbers, one oft-ignored offence they look at is parking on pavements. Just returned from walk, with my grandson in pushchair, and appalled at the number of drivers (cars and vans) who think taking up most or the whole of the pavement is legitimate - some don't even fold in wing mirrors. It's a damned dangerous, selfish habit, and forces pram-pushers into the road. Hey, don't wing mirrors make a loud twang when you force them back with your elbow ...
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Didn't Humberside police have some specially prepared (Pro Drive)Subaru Impreza Turbo's as traffic cars a few years ago?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that they had been fitted with uprated suspension and rally standard sump guards so they were able to drive over kerbs and speed bumps without worrying about damage.
They'll certainly have no need for such extravagances with this policy.
PP
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Saw half a dozen or so of these sold off at Leeds auctions a few months back, don't know if they were renewed.
The Protons they run are dual fuel, so you could have enviromentaly friendly chases!!
VB
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Yes Humberside had a very successful pro-active Vehicle Crime Unit which started with a Cosworth Escort which was replaced by Impretzas. The vehicles were suitably equipped.
Definition of a pursuit -
"Any vehicle which having been indicated to stop then increases its speed to above the legal limit."
The vehicle will not be pursued. Full Stop. End of story
For a Helicopter to be effective it requires ground support. It requires a vehicle to be monitored so that it can then take over. All the support vehicles would then be involved directly or indirectly in the pursuit by having to keep up or to deploy Stinger type devices. But they cant be because of the fact that the pursuit will be abandoned if it exceeds the speed limit! Get my drift? Catch 22.
Fullchat
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A Helicopter can be a useful tool in many cases but believe me the costs to the police of buying or leasing and supporting a helicopter operation are prohibitive. ( as my forum name implies I am very actively involved in a helicopter business.)
Use the money more effectively by putting more police on the street, out of their cars and building up some contact and trust with the bored youths who start these pursuits for 'fun'.
Using a helicopter in most car chases is like using £100,000 worth of CCTV to protect the pick and mix counter in Woolies.
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Hit the nail on the head Barnes Wallace. Home Sec David Blanket is intent on getting Plod out of cars. So far, removed from Plod's responsibility has been Control of Parking, Animal Health, Lost Dogs, Weight Checks HGV's etc etc now the latest:
With Home Office approval, as the result of a review between ACPO (Traffic) and Highways Agency centred on the roles and responsibilities of managing England?s Motorways, it was decreed that there was a strong case made for the transfer of general traffic and road management away from the Police thus allowing them to concentrate on their core responsibility of crime, accident investigation and law enforcement.
Supplementing Road Policing Officers will be Uniformed Highways Agency Traffic Officers in livered vehicles and with limited additional powers, which will take over responsibility for traffic matters on the Motorway and some key Trunk Roads. They will deal with breakdowns, congestion - where necessary setting up agreed diversionary routes, clearing left vehicles on the Motorway and debris, sign setting etc, tasks that do not require the powers of the police, skills or training. Regional Control Centres will be established, staffed by both Police and H.A. enabling resources to be deployed and provide a common liaison point.
Spring 2004 has been earmarked for the first phase that will centre on Motorways in the West Midlands area. By Spring 2005 three further Regional Control Centres are planned covering North West, South and East England.
This scheme is being funded by Highways Agency and it is hoped it will bring about a safer road network, a reduction in secondary incidents, reduced incident related congestion and more reliable journey times.
Recruitment of HA Traffic Officers (&15,800 - &17,200 pa plus up to 20% shift allowance) and Control Centre Operators (&14,000 - &14,948 pa plus shift allowance) has already started. Posts will attract Civil Service Pension.
If I was MLC or Full Chat I would be investing in plian clothes for its CID for them next year....
DVD
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But DVD who is going to work for that money? Even a McJob looks attractive compared with that surely?
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As you can see G they are going for quality....
Mind you its as much as my pay packet when I retired.
DVD
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Like the private security outfits - you'll always get someone who'll work for peanuts if they can be officious and wear a uniform with a peaked cap.
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Just as an indicator round here they advertised for scamera operators @ 12-14k. Can't remember if they mentioned OTE though. :)
Not much more than a shelf stacker at Sainescos. Says it all really.
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Not really for this forum, but with the off-shore outsourcing taking off in the way it is (not only in the computer industry I might add), I often wonder whether there will be any real well paid jobs for all but a few of the next generation...
And there are many areas in this country where that would be regarded as an OK wage - especially if it were a second income...
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It won't happen - why ? well what products / services here would pay for their off-shore salaries ? So we just do higher value stuff like designing cars (motoring link) instead of answering phones or digging coal.
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MrWibble - it's happening. A close friend who works as a technical estimator for a major civil engineering company (and I mean MAJOR) says that a lot of their design work is now done in China, and this is set to grow. A project manager for a large computer company (who's role does not involve site visits) was told he could go immediately, or spend three months handing over his job to three Indians. Why three? Probably because it took three to do one person's work, but with salaries a tenth of ours, it is still cost effective.
An interesting article in the Times a few weeks back looked at the increasing emphasis these countries are placing on teaching English. Which the paper believed is purely to better their position in winning our work away from us.
That's enough thread hijacking for now... sorry mods :-)
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Just to update the thread - An about turn takes place:-
tinyurl.com/25fjf
U-TURN IN POLICY ON CAR CHASES
14:30 - 22 January 2004
Police chiefs today abandoned their controversial policy of not pursuing criminals who break the speed limit in car chases.
Humberside Police, understood to be the only force in the country to employ the policy, has faced heavy criticism for ordering officers not to chase vehicles travelling over national speed limits.
Today, Assistant Chief Constable Alan Leaver said the new training will now be provided for officers to allow them to carry out high-speed pursuits in the wake of a recent review.
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Mr Leaver confirmed one of the reasons officers have not received proper training was the disbandment of the traffic squad when local policing teams (LPTs) were introduced in 2001.
The LPTs formed a key part of Chief Constable David Westwood's "back to basics" policing, with greater emphasis on local officers handling local incidents.
Ah yes, that name rings a bell.
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Ah that explains why Full Chat has been so quiet of late. Having been restricted to second gear for two months he is on one of these new driving courses to get up to speed.
If you read FC - any news on the chop further up the road. Rumour Tadcaster white tops have had their wheels taken away to do Public Order at Eboracum ? Tiz said new Chief has no place for Traffic in the Force.
DVD
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No driving course yet DVD! Waiting with baited breath. Trouble is that unless there is some interactive style of training I dont think it is really poasible to replicate a true pursuit. Even with 'bandit' style training the bandit will excercise caution and professionalism as they are concerned with safety. A villain is'nt.
Think it will be on the lines of TPAC which can be idealistic.
Have heard nothing about the White Tops in North Yorks but will have to keep my ear to the ground.Before LPTs regularly met up the surrounding forces at cross border incidents and kept up with the gossip but not any more.
Fullchat
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And a heck of a lot more than the combined pensions of SWMBO and me.
One reason we live in Spain!
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But DVD who is going to work for that money? Even a McJob looks attractive compared with that surely?
The minimum wage is £4.50 per hour for adults. I don't know what a 'McJob' pays but I can't imagine it being a lot more. Assuming a 35 hour week and 52 week year, that equates to £8190 per annum.
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To El Hacko re. parking on pavement.
I've been told that to prosecute the police have to witness the offending vehicle being moved into position on the pavement.
Also, recent newspaper article revealed a loophole that means no action can be taken if all 4 wheels are on the pavement.
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"btw it is noticeable that in many MANY of the high speed chases on TV which end in a serious looking accident, the driver and his passengers usually escape with minimal or zero injuries..."
Seems to me that will be because those making the ghastly TV programs, which are after all just for "entertainment", will edit out the deaths, by and large. I'd love to think that would be for self censorship rather than imposed regulatory reasons.
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