Some of you may remember I put a post on the site about being stopped on the M62 for speeding and then be allowed off in the begining of March. I had to produce my documents at the local police station and couldn\'t produce my licence (not needed in 20 years) and found to my dismay that the MOT had run out on the 1st of the month.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=11...2
I have now had a summons for the following:
No Insurance, which I had
No valid test cert, which I hadn\'t
13001 NSTD MCA Offence, I think its failure to produce certificate of insurance and a test cert.????
Driving otherwise in accordance with a licence, that I couldnt produce but was actually authorised for
Driver failed to produce licence to a constable. Which I couldn,t
All of the above has arrived some 3 months after the offence. Is this ok for these offences and if not, how long should they take to set them up.
If they are OK what are the penalties for the above? I have been summoned to appear in court for these later this month.
Bill
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No insurance 6-8 points and £5000 fine,
No MoT £1000 fine,
Driving otherwise in accordance with a licence £1000 and 3-6 points, not sure about the others.
The police have six months to bring charges after telling you they were reporting the offence. Sounds like they made a bit of a cock up your case apart from the MoT which in practice doesn't generally produce more than a nominal fine.
Definately calls for a solicitor.
Tom
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OK B.D. see if I we can get you sorted.
You posted before that were stopped for speeding on the two wheeled flying machine and given a warning as I understand it. But, Plod asked to see your DL, C of I and T.C. Presumably you didn't have them with you and elected to produce these in 7 days at a police station of your choice. To remind you of this Plod would have given you a reminder in the shape of a Form HO/RT/1. (Althought not strictly necessary at law IIRC for those who may say what if I didn't get one).
On getting home you found your Test Cert had expired and Backroomers advised you to get this done straight away and produce both with the hope that Plod/CPS would use discretion and not pursue that offence.
Now you say you have received enough summons to paper the front room.
Your post would indicate that you were unable to produce your Docs and have been sheeted for having none (3) alternatively fail to produce, because Plod has been unable to see these although he does have an avenue for checking on DL with DVLA.
So into the nitty gritty.
You say you had a substantive DL (not a provisional without L plates/unaccompanied) covering the journey so plead Not Guilty
to driving otherwise in accordance with a Licence and produce this at Court, BUT
Fail to produce Driving Licence Fine up to £1000, No disq, no penalty points, no endorsement.
No Insurance. Fine up to £5000, discretionary disqualification, obligatory endorsement and 6- 8 pen points, BUT
you say you have Insurance so plead Not Guilty to this and take the Certificate covering the journey stopped to Court to prove it or letter from Insurance Company admitting they were at risk in relation to the journey when you were stopped.
Fail to produce Insurance - same as failing to produce Driving Licence.
No test Certificate - Fine up to £1000. No disq, no endorsement, no pen points.
If you had been sheeted for failing to produce this then it would have been taken in with the fail to produce Insurance which is one but not both, i.e
fail to produce Insurance AND Test Certificate.
If you did as suggested by Backroomers and had the vehicle tested immediately then production of the old and new Certificate at Court could form mitigation.
The fines quoted are the maximum that can be awarded at Mags. Court.
Check you local paper for similar Court cases which may give you some idea what is being doled out.
The summons have arrived 3 months after the offence so limitation on proceedings (6 months) does not kick in.
Tom Shaw - don't think Plod boobed more the fact that BD has been unable to show his docs so they have gone for alternatives. He either has or he hasn't.
DVD
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Reality penalties in Mags court:
No MOT- absolute discharge
No Insurance- £200 fine, 5 points
Fail to produce- No penalty
These are the ludicrous penalities imposed by my local court. They are the norm rather than the exception.
MLC
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My sympathy Bill for your situation; I once drove without an MOT by mistake for 3 months (out of sync with tax disc). Didn't get checked or anything so no problem, but it is easily done. I suggest other boardroomers check it just in case!
Midlifecrisis-
Do you mean in this situation absolute discharge or generally if don't have MOT? My criminal law may be rusty but I thought absolute discharge was for no moral blame scenario. Perhaps applicable here but not generally...
And as a general point, never having being in a mags court etc, what point is it giving 5 points to someone with no insurance as they obviously don't have the trouble points mean higher insurance. Unless of course, they tot up and produce an offence of driving while disqual next time. Seems to me driving without insurance is an economic decision and should be punished as such directly ie fine = what insurance would have been x multiple (to recognise low risk of being caught). Therefore fines of 3 or 4000£ would be more appropriate. Dock wages/benefits for the years necessary. And I know the mags can't impose so high, but they should...
Anyway, hope all goes well Bill
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Gen.
Shake your head in disbelief but on 1st June 2003, the offence of using a vehicle without Insurance was added to the Fixed Penalty Scheme ( Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order, 2003), with a punishment of £200. Yes £200, which is less than the majority pay to be Insured. Hardly an incentive to insure a vehicle.
No Test Certificate was also added with a £60 fine. MLC can you see your local Mags being lenient with this in Force?
DVD
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Could they be going for the no insurance as without a driving licence (to show them) your insurance is invalid??
Martin
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Have I read somewhere that no MOT invaldates insurance?
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My policy for both bike and car has an exclusion clause that mentions that the vehicle needs to be in roadworthy condition and have a valid MOT if required - however I don't have the policy document to hand to say if it invalidates the whole policy of just the comprehensive bit of cover for own vehicle.
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Bill
As advised did you get the bike MOT'd straight away and produce both MOTs as advised?
Did you take in a valid certificate of insurance for the date in question?
When you got your new licence did it cover you to drive motorcycles on the date in question OR as you had not seen it for 20 years had it elapsed?
Generally if you have problems finding your licence and you explain at the time of production the Police contact DVLA who provide a printout for the process file.If it shows a valid licence then on its own it should be NFA however seeing as there would appear on face value to be a common theme here then non production would be added onto all the others.
It would seem that now they have the printout they consider for whatever reason that you do not hold the required licence.
IF you have all the relevent documentation then get yourself to court and show them. Summonses can be dismissed. But bare in mind you are bang to rights on the MOT.
Please dont take this the wrong way but the Police do not run round after people. Remember the offence of non production is committed at the time. HOWEVER if docs are produced within 7 days NFA is taken. Its a mechanical process which runs its course and sometimes the only way of stopping it is to get in touch with the Officer in the case early on who if satisfied that all is in order will not submit process. However many forces run process units to remove admin burden from the front line. These can be a litle bit inflexible and by the book as a certain W.York Ambulance driver will testify!
Fullchat
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Its fairly standard wording on your Insurance that it will cover a person providing "he holds or HAS HELD a Driving Licence and is not Disqualified .."
An out of date MOT does not invalidate third party Insurance cover as under Criminal Law, Section 148, Road Traffic Act, 1988, prohibits a Company from doing so. BUT, an Insurance Company, under Civil Law, may recover its costs where an unroadworthy vehicle is involved. It will dpend what is in the Policy.
DVD
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I've given up trying to fathom how Magistrates decide on their sentencing. They always remind me of the two old guys who used to sit in the balcony on th Muppet Show.
My aim is to target those I know to be driving with no insurance. They wont suffer financially, but after three or four offences, they willevntually be banned under 'totting up'. They invariably drive whilst banned and after being caught six or seven times, will recieve around a month inside.
It's the best we can hope for.
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Will B.D. reply soon?
Regards.
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PDCat
See eight posts up.
HJ has the news (070603} before the media???(090603)
DVD
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Just to update all who very kindly posted. Went to the police station attached to the magistrates court today with relevant documents that I couldn\'t find when I was supposed to produce them originally. They hadn\'t asked to see my insurance documents originally but with the summons saying no insurance I had to get my file out with the relevant documents in it. To my suprise and dismay I found my drivers licence in with the insurances. If they had asked me to produce my insurance docs I would have found the licence then. Anyway to cut a long story short, they are going to lose all of the offences except the MOT, I understand this will be a fine of about £60 costs of £35. I am pleading guilty by post and will see what happens, I will let you know around the 27th.
Thanks again folks
Bill
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That seems like a good result under the circumstances. I am glad this has worked out okay for you. As I understand it, driving without MOT is not the criminal offense that driving without insurance is, so a fine might well be the end of it.
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