Off the track slighly but to get things off my chest .. in 1984 I went to Mercedes' museum in Germany. As a 14-year-old I fell in love with the Mercedes S-Class. Strange, I know, but true.
11 years later we tried buying an E-class brand new for Mrs V Senior. We failed. We bought an E250D 2nd hand instead. Thank-you Great Trade Centre.
4 years later we tried to get a 'Signature' S-Class used car for Mr V Senior. We failed. We bought an S320 privately instead. Thank-you Sharon and Gary of Essex. Thanks Dad for the 190E.
This year I tried to buy a 2nd-hand Mercedes S-Class, for myself. I failed. I bought an S280 privately instead. Thank-you James.
So, in summary, eight visits to Mercedes dealerships and the best result was a 10 minute test drive to buy a £20,000 car. Up and down a straight road in the country having told the salesman I would spend most of my time in town. Another four visits resulted in being ignored completely. The others were varied but equally unfruitful.
My brother also walked in with £28,000 in cash to spend with his friend. 1/2 way through the discussion and after being told that 'A C-Class Mercedes is quite a step up from a VW Polo you know ...' he went to serve another customer ... and didn't return. He bought a 2nd-hand E200TE from Scotland from a non-Mercedes dealer instead.
Not quite sure how anyone is lucky enough to buy from a Mercedes dealership! Answers on a postcard please.
Is anyone out there from Mercedes interested even? Would LOVE to talk to you!
rojer@lycos.co.uk
Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
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Postcard answer:
So whose loss is it? And why do you care? See also
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=12...5
and other similar threads over the last year.
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> So whose loss is it?
Theirs financially. Mine with wasted time. See below for response to a previous question.
> And why do you care?
Life would be simpler. That's all.
> www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=12...5
and other similar threads over the last year.
Will do
Thank-you
Previous Post (in response to what to pay for a 2nd-hand S-Class):
I don't think you'll get a similar deal to mine as the 1 FMBSH owner from new left the country the next day and he priced it to sell. Let's just say it was worth my brother driving from London to Stirling THAT VERY AFTERNOON THAT WE SAW THE ADVERT.
It had 92K miles and in addition to the 1996 'P' reg spec. it has leather, hidden aerial, Panasonic pop-off CD player, metallic paint and side air bags.
On a private sale do not approach anywhere near 10,000. If you shop around you'll find things coming in at £8500.
Haggle and ask any question you want of the owner. You, at the end of the day, are doing THEM a favour, not the other way around. We saw a whole bunch of duff Mercs (okay, three) and drove hundreds of miles in the process ... but it was worth it in the end. Never be afraid of walking away. Spend as much time checking out the owner as you do the car and look out for suspicious stories.
Oh, and while I'm at it ask the following and save time and effort:
o IS it from Japan? (or some other country)
o Which side is the steering wheel on?
o Has it got ANY dents at all? (including dents that you did last week / yesterday / hadn't spotted)
o Are you a diplomat? (Because you can't get trading standards to do anything about their lies)
o Are you really going to be there when I visit or will you cancel when I am five minutes away?
o Does full Mercedes Benz History mean that all the services were done without missing any at a Mercedes Benz dealership?
o When you say 'immaculate', is that before or after the accident is repaired and the stone chips and missing parts of the body are replaced?
o Is that mileage in miles, kilometres or some other unit that you've just made up?
o Are the leather seats made from cloth?
Okay, it's a little tongue-in-cheek but believe it or not, we had ALL of the above
!!!!
Get a fax of their V5 sent and get it HPI checked. Ask them if the service history IS complete.
My brother has just chipped in with two more we found when we were looking for a (sorry) BMW (!):
o Has it REALLY got air conditioning or are you just confused by the maximum output of the normal heater on the coldest setting?
o Is it REALLY automatic or do you have to have a robotic arm / passenger with nothing else to do for the next 10 years?
;)
Apparently he got to the sellers addresses and the above would have saved time
rojer@lycos.co.uk
Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
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Rojer:
" > So whose loss is it?
Theirs financially. Mine with wasted time. See below for response to a previous question."
financially: Clearly, Merc dealers do not want to deal with you. Its not their loss financially, because for all you know there are other buyers they can sell to for a higher price with added value extras to boost the profit even further. The other cusomer also keeps coming back for additional services and pays up all "extras" charged everytime without question or quibble. The other customer is the typical MB customer who believes they deserve the best, get the best, and pay the price wihtout ever questioning the need for "this or that" needed doing. They are too rich to bother with the details of how cars work and usually prefer the car to be driven by the chauffer anyway.
Wasted time: There always has to be a first time, but they saved you wasting your time in future. Now you know, dont ever go to a dealer. Clearly, you and your family fall in to the category that are more likely to be satified through buying from private sellers or non-Merc dealers. But then, as you say, you have to be careful that you do not waste your time at these non- franchise dealers.
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Non, non, non!
You're right about the 'Typical MB customer'. I was lucky enough to buy off one eventually. As all the family have to be honest. But non-Merc dealers have been mixed.
It's the pivateers who have been VERY naughty indeed. But then, I guess it's because we were going in search of a bargain and it probably attracts that kind of seller.
A good, cheap MERC is a rarity but they DO exist.
I have thought that the salesfolk may have been looking for a particular type of 'buyer' profile. Dress, attitude, age, colour ... etc etc etc.
I don't fit what I think the typical S-Class profile might be.
My brother at 22 certainly didn't fit ANY of the above. But so what? We wanted to buy a Merc from a Mercedes dealership and we couldn't! We laugh at i now but it was incredibly frustrating .. it made my blood boil!
rojer@lycos.co.uk
Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
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Phone Rycroft Mercedes in Stockton and ask to speak to Harry Mett. Tell him I recommended you speak to him.
He provided a great service when buying my SLK last year, me as a 25 year-old single bloke with a 4 year old Ka to trade-in - hardly a typical Merc buyer and could have been easily given the brush-off as a timewaster. He hunted down the perfect car for me when what they had on the forecourt wasn't exactly what I wanted.
I think he was a new Mercedes salesman and keen to please. Hopefully in the past year he hasn't got complacent.
Mike
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I've got one now thank-you but I shall bear it in mind in about 10 years time (I hope!) ;)
For information, tried
Mayfair, London, Edgware Road
Colindale, London
Watford,
Harrow,
Somewhere between York and Dalby Forest Yorkshire
Clifton Moor, York - who gave me the 10-minute drive
rojer@lycos.co.uk
Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
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I turned up at the Reg Vardy Jaguar and Aston Martin franchised dealers in the Fiesta with my dad once! :)
Give them their due they were very helpful when my dad was looking at a green SLK on the forecourt and even offered a test drive.
My car may be a clapped out Fiesta popular, but even the Ghia can't cut it when sat next to an Aston costing over £100K :)
Blue
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My mum was allowed to test drive the Jaguar S-Type at the UK *launch* of the S-Type.
She ignored the champage (non-drinker) and the food (vegetarian) ignored the press and the suits and managed to get herself a spin in one as she was contemplating buying one. She sped out of the car park with one of the two cars (the higher spec automatic of course!) and returned 45 minutes later to a frantic bunch of Jag folk who hadn't expected her to leave the car park.
When asked why she left the car park park she replied, 'Well, I have to test drive properly if I am thinking of buying one innit? I'm not here to mess about with drinking and eating am I? I want to buy a new car ...'.
When asked what she thought of it she replied, 'Well it's rubbish. It's not like a proper car like a Mercedes is it?'.
They even asked her how exactly it differed from a 'proper car' and what she'd like to see changed, much to their credit .. !
Now that's service!!! Whereas with Mercedes .. ! Well ...
rojer@lycos.co.uk
Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
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Mercedes have a market comprising 2 major sections: fleets and wealthy owners. The first buy in volume , the second think nothing of paying £2k to repair a dent in their S class bummer (yes, really, I have seen it).
Fall into neither category and you are just one customer (and if you look "poor" and sound "difficult" they don't want to know. Why? becuase they can sell as many cars as they want (they limit UK sales to keep prices high, remember).
No doubt some dealers are fdifferent..
I found my local BMW dealers (Howarths of Staffordshire) very good : ditto Williams.. and my local Ford ones (Burns) all very keen and helpful when selling s/hand cars.
Rover dealers? I dunno: only a fool buys a Rover I thought:-)
madf
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A lot of Merc owners are self-made business people or execs (usually sales) on their way up the ladder. Most prestige outlets don't typecast by appearance, just by income bracket.
Wee bit unfair on Rover types. I love the 75 to death, whether it's 2.5 V6 Tourer, 75 CDT with the 130ps chip, or ZT 190, and I know I'm not alone. These are good cars plain and simple.
But MG TF excepted, they are the only good cars in the Rover range.
Some Bee-Em dealers can be just as off-putting as Merc types. The best prestige people, in my experience, are the Lexus people. Like they used to say yonks ago in one of the major car hire ads (was it Avis?): 'We're second. We try harder'.
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Hmmm .. In that light, I do NOT look my income bracket at all. Especially when I'd turn up in my 'A' reg 190E with mud, Zender body kit et al ..
Ironically, I could have bought any car made by Mercedes for cash at the time.
I guess that could be it
... and my brother looks even less than his income bracket!
rojer@lycos.co.uk
Astra, Renault 18, Renault 25 TXi, Astra Est, Passat Est, Mercedes 190E, Mercedes
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True Short Story of today: My friend finally has had his new S600 delivered today. He placed the order 6 months ago even though he was refused a test drive, he bought with cash, he was told the price had gone up £8,000 since the original order, take it or leave it - because they could sell to other waiting buyers who were prepared to pay more than list for it. He spoke MB HQ - they agreed with the dealer point of view. So my friend has paid up.
Why? Because he wants that car and he can afford that price and he can afford the MB and MB dealers attitude. The crunch deal-maker came when checked with other dealers who said they could get him a "pre-registered" S600 next week for £10k above list!
So the moral of the story is that a dealer will sell a car to whoever is prepared to pay the "right" price for it - just forget what the book value or list price is. If you cant afford it, sorry, don't waste their time, go look elsewhere.
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Thing is that only on one occassion was I after a new one (and 'E'-series) but twice I was after their used 'Signature' S-Class models.
I can understand the logic but to not even approach a potential customer FOUR TIMES in FOUR SEPARATE Mercedes Dealerships is unforgivable.
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PS M.B. What's the S-Class like in the back? I have no idea! You might know
;)
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I haven't been it this one yet. I just saw it 2 hours ago. It is a black LWB model, with all extras (satnav, x-box, radar-cruise-distance-control, etc.). Will probably get a ride next weekend when my friend comes to take his & my sons to play rugby.
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Of course, if he asked for the new price in writing, paid and then passed on the details to his solicitor, the small matter of a binding contract on the dealer plus a lot of bad publicity would probably justify a quick phone call to get the money back.
And £8k for 10 minutes of anyone's time sounds like a good deal to me.
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The extra 8k was said to be for the new 12 cylinder engine, and apparently the contract says final price is subject to whatever increases there are up to delivery day.
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That's nice. With no choice and all I imagine .. I'll try to put those into all my contracts too!
;)
PS mercedesservicing.com/ Andy Gayles Servicing in Birmingham seems RIDICULOUSLY CHEAP! .. Any experience? Will start a new thread on it
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Surely we are in the realms of fantasy business here.
I won't pretend to be in the high income bracket because I'm not, but the nature of my work brings me into regular contact with people who own private businesses.
Some are your classic self-made types, some serial entrepreneurs, others systematically successful. But none of them like being beaten in a deal or double-crossed. That's a serious no-no. Despite their wealth, the reoccurring theme is Value For Money.
If any Benz dealer had tried to foist an extra £8k charge on them they would have either told them where to go in colourful language, threatened to stop buying anymore vehicles from them/cancelled existing orders, set the lawyers on them, tried to find a friend in high places who would advise them to think again or bad-mouthed them to a very influential peer group.
It's just plain bad form.
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>>Surely we are in the realms of fantasy business here.<<
Surely? How sure are you? Not surely?
Really, not neccesarily. The possibility exists that knowledge and your circle of friends is in a different league.
Perhaps you have never bought a brand new car, but from my limited knowledge of the dealers I deal with there is a standard term which goes something like "XXXX reserve the right to alter prices and specification without notice." IIRC there is case law about these terms whereby it was found in favour of the dealer/manufacturer, and that it was not an unfair contract term.
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Presumably your friend is dealing as a consumer, which gives him the benefit of the various Consumer Contracts Regulations and other consumer protection legislation. There is also the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 which applies to businesses, particularly where there is inequality of bargaining power.
I have no problem with people being charged a premium for whatever product. A Mercedes S600 may be £8k underpriced. If so, they can refuse to sell at list altogether and only pre register cars at whatever price, if they don't want to be seen to increase list prices, only to cut them when demand subsides. But for goodness sake, once the contract is signed, they should stick to it.
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Unlike DavidHM (and MorrisOX ?) , I am not a lawyer. I know you can always find a lawyer who for a very small? fee will tell you that you can win your case if you take it to the House of Lords. Having said that, let me quote from two sources:
1. carbuyermagazine feb 03 :
" All suppliers reserve the right to alter the
price or standard specification at any time
without prior notice.But there is a significant
difference between a change of list price or
specification and blatant profiteering. "
2. A real contract with a dealer:
" This purchase contract is a standard purchase contract, which we have prepared for your reasonable protection. If you wish to purchase the Vehicle you must, ..... ... .. on the terms of the purchase contract. ...... you should carefully check that the Vehicle Specification and other details specific to your purchase are correct. ....... You have the right to cancel this contract for any reason whatsoever and without penalty for seven working days (i.e. not counting weekends and UK bank holidays) following the date of sending us your authorisation, in which case you will receive a full refund of any deposit you have already paid. Once we have placed your order ..... it is a legally binding contract ..... The Vehicle Specification may (unless otherwise agreed in exceptional cases) only be changed from the specification you ordered by agreement with you , or by the manufacturer changing the specifications of the vehicle. If the manufacturer changes the specification of your vehicle, you agree that the Car Dealer may provide you with a vehicle containing such changed specifications. Should such changes in the specification result in a change in the price, the price change will be notified to you (but shall not be a basis to cancel the contract). ...... It is a condition of this Agreement that the Vehicle: (a) is owned by the Dealer and the Dealer is entitled to freely sell it to the Customer; (b) is of satisfactory quality and fit for its purpose; (c) is free from defects in materials or workmanship; (d) is not subject to any charges or other encumbrances; (e) complies in all respects with the specifications set out in the Order and with all literature published by the manufacturer in respect of a Vehicle of such specification, subject to the manufacturer changing the specification of the Vehicle in which case the Dealer may supply the Vehicle with the changed manufacturers specifications; ..."
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Just 2 comments: 1. The contract cited purports to bind the purchaser to a version of contract law which is rather one-sided. Luckily, statute law is not over-ridden by such transparent attempts to 'protect' the customer. 2. Your friend seems to have more money than sense.
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Just 2 comments: 1. The contract cited purports to bind the purchaser to a version of contract law which is rather one-sided. Luckily, statute law is not over-ridden by such transparent attempts to 'protect' the customer.<<
Uh-Uh - sorry but motoring case law has proved you wrong! If you ask nicely, perhaps one of the wise lawyers on this forum will be kind enough to tell you where to look it up.
2. Your friend seems to have more money than sense. <<
He has enough sense to coin the money from those with less sense than him. Enough money to live not far from HJ, on the famous St.G.Hill, where property prices start from a minimum of £2m. That says it all. I wish I had his sense anyday.
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Ignore the law and think good business practice. Sign up a customer. The sting them for £8k at the last minute. Goodbye goodwill, goodbye customer...
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M-Ox : clearly your experiences at a different level altogether.
I have just spoken to my friend. He spent over £95k in total on the car with all the extras specified. He was not happy to be stung the extra £8k which is why he spoke to MB-UK-HQ at MKeynes. He was assured that the price had officially gone up by that amount for his total spec. He was told he could cancel without penalty if he wished to so, as there were was a 6 month plus waiting list and other waitng buyers would take the car. He decided he wanted the car at the new higher price and paid up. What is more, he is now going to place an order for a SL55 (total current cost approx £80k) at the same dealer. The S600 will be chauffeur driven, for his wife & family. The SL55 is to be for himself. He is interviewing potential chauffeurs next week, if you would like to apply.
As you might guess, my friend is a successful self-made millionaire. He owns/runs a wholesale operation and has chain of retail businesses. He knows how to buy and sell at a keen price, and he knows how to squeeze the maximum out of any deal. I could relate stories of amazing deals he has done but I won't bore anyone on this forum with them as they are not motoring related.
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I'd be very willing to learn from such case law. You might also like to be aware of www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm, on the 1999 regs which specifically address one-sided consumer contracts, and to changes in price which MAY be unfair.
On the question of sense, I had of course assumed this was a plutocrat friend. Still of same opinion. even if it was a Roller not just an imported Swabian taxi.
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Still of same opinion. even if it was a Roller not just an imported Swabian taxi. <<
The new S600, the best car in the world, a taxi? Where in the world? Please tell us so we can flag one down for a ride in whichever part of your imaginary? dream? world that you might find it.
Politic of envy and greed, don't you just love them.
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In europe I think the lower priced diesel mercs are commonly referred to as Stuttgart Taxis. Those who wish to appear more discerning would go for Audi/BMW/Bentley/Rolls as they're not generally used as hire cars/taxis. I think that is what the poster is getting it. In fact not so much envy and greed but snobbishness as they think they are in fact too good to be seen in a merc!
teabelly
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Also, don't forget the LPG ones that regularly work the Schipol to Amsterdam Centraal route..........
Have to give them credit, 350,000kms and still going strong.
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Here's an older one: could be a useful fallback:) www.prc.ch/armoredcar.htm
Next closing cliche?
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Merc S600 - Update: I had the drive in my friends limo at the weekend. It is just such an amazing car! The ride is like flying in a whisper quiet jet aircarft. The acceleration is breathtaking. The list of technical wizardry is endless. One is the fact that in normal towm driving, only 6 cylinders are in play, the other six kick in on fast roads.
By the way, for those of you who questioned the sense of buying such a car; well, my friend has received an offer from the local dealer [he bought from dealer in next county]. A "wealthy female" [hubby is a footballer] wants to buy the car off him and is willing to pay a premium of £10k over what he paid -just so she can have this car before Royal Ascot week. So it proves that there is someone with even less sense than my friend. My friend is seriously thinking about this chance to pocket a quick £10k profit.
Greed and envy - don't you just love it.
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