Any - Worn Tyres - Cyd

www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/products/2016-09/micheli.../

Well, well, well! This is exactly what Chassis Engineers at work told me years ago. Of course, when I expressed this view on here I got shot down by the plethora of bar room engineers (as per usual)

Thank you Michelin.

Any - Worn Tyres - gordonbennet

I've been the user (not buyer) of Michelin tyres on and off for some 44 years, indeed they last and last, it takes thousands of miles to wear the last 3mm from a Mich, whether you would want the wet grip or water clearance offered by such a tyre is another question entyrely (ho ho).

Lukcily i'm not that hard up so when i feel the grip or standing water clearing performance of my tyres deteriorate they get replaced, if thats at 7mm as it has been with some so be it, if thats at 3 or 4mm again so be it.

I'll decide when my tyres get changed and i'm the one driving the vehicle and paying for said tyres and everything else, so thank you Michelin for your advice but i'll carry on as i've always done ta very much.

signed.... not an engineer, bar room or otherwise, but someone whose driven well over 3 million miles and counting and has developed a healthy feel for whats going on at the point of road contact.

edit, lorries have a lower tread depth allowed than cars, but company policy where i work is 3mm they get replaced, 4mm if you're passing the tyre bay will check and if convenient replace.

Edited by gordonbennet on 30/09/2016 at 19:35

Any - Worn Tyres - focussed

Do you seriously believe that the wet roadholding and braking performance of any tyre worn to the legal limit of 1.6 mm tread depth is satisfactory?

I have been driving all sorts of 2 and 4 wheeled vehicles for close on 50 years, my own and professionally and I know from that experience that tyres worn to the legal limit do not have safe braking performance in wet conditions.

Edited by focussed on 30/09/2016 at 19:42

Any - Worn Tyres - Engineer Andy

Indeed. as per my reply to someone on the storey thread:

I would be cautious - replacing worn tyres is far easier than dealing with the ramifications of a serious accident, and you don't want to test their theory (where's the proof?) than tyres at 1.6mm thread will work fine in very wet conditions. What they DON'T say is that running OLD tyres is at least as bad as very worn (or unevenly worn) tyres - older tyres become very hard and brittle and are prone to cracking, meaning the don't work as they would do in the early years, so grip is presumably significantly reduced.

I can attest to that, having changed my last set at only ~40k miles and 4-5mm tread, but they were 6.5 years old. I had some VERY hairy moments in the wet at relatively slow speeds (about 20mph or so) on roundabouts, losing the back end both times. I was luck, and took heed of the sign to change tyres.

[BTW - mine were premium brand tyres, Bridgestones, not Michellins]

Any - Worn Tyres - scot22

Like many others I will continue to regard 3mm as the minimum.

Andy, I appreciate depends on the tyre, at what age would you consider a tyre is becoming too old for safety ?

Any - Worn Tyres - Engineer Andy

Like many others I will continue to regard 3mm as the minimum.

Andy, I appreciate depends on the tyre, at what age would you consider a tyre is becoming too old for safety ?

I must admit that it may vary dependent upon manufacturer, model of tyre bought and usage. I find that, as HJ recommended, 6 years seems to be a good maximum to use (mine were 6 months over when replaced), assuming they don't wear out through use - I am quite light-footed (not a slow driver), but it was more that I (up until recently) didn't do a great deal of mileage, so I normally went through tyres because they were too old and lost their traction.

It also happened (though no really scary moments - just a noticeable loss in traction in the wet) with my previous car, a Nissan Micra (1996), which had the factory-fitted Dunlops on. They lasted 50k miles and 8 years, though they were worn to 2.5-3mm. The Bridgestones on my Mazda3 just went really hard - great for mpg, very bad for wet grip and noise.

My current Dunlop tyres have now done about 15-20k miles and are down to about 5-6mm, so not too bad, and are still performing well even after 4 years. I'll probably replace the car before it needs new boots.

I think in the end, we should trust our own judgement (forget the wallet) and replace tyres when they feel like they are losing too much grip (especially in poor weather conditions) compared to when new, or when they are down to 3mm, whichever happens sooner. Why take the risk, especially as the tyres are the only contact between the car and the road.

I'd also rather down-spec a new car's wheels/tyres from, say, 17in 45 profiles to 16in 55 or 60 profiles to get better mpg, tyre life, comfort (including noise) and a redcution in the cost of replacements, even if it ever-so-slightly reduces traction/grip (I doubt if anyone notices it under driving) and saleability (its not as though I'm selling a Ferrari).

Any - Worn Tyres - nick62
Some drivers would do well just to slow-down a bit when its wet/raining.

Driving eastbound this lunchtime on the M60/M62 near Worsley, (motorway very congested), lanes 3 & 4 were flooded for about 200 yards. I was in L4 and crawling through approx. 6 to 8 inches of water when a five axle articulated lorry passed me in L3 at about 30 to 40mph and completely swamped my car. The bow wave went right over my roof.

The idiot driver wanted locking-up, he shouldn't have even been in L3 anyway.

Edited by nick62 on 01/10/2016 at 00:27

Any - Worn Tyres - scot22

Thanks Andy for informative reply.

Any - Worn Tyres - Wackyracer

Something like 20 years ago we had a man from a tyre manufacturer give us a lecture on tyres and their efficiency versus tread wear/depth. The bits I do remember from that lecture was a new tyre pumps about 100 gallons a minute when driven on a wet road and that a tyres wet performance starts to drop off rapidly when they get to 3mm and less. Probably why said company I worked for at that time (even being the tight wads they were) decided it would be company policy to change/recut all tyres at 3mm.

I don't care how good your tread pattern looks, those grooves at 1.5mm only hold half as much water as they did at 3mm.

Any - Worn Tyres - Wackyracer

www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2008/5/12/tyre-management.../

Does this mean MIRA are just bar room engineers too?

I like the bit in the OP's post where it says " The current legislation on minimum tread depth dates back to 1989". Before that it was 1.2mm IIRC which must have been deemed not enough for them to increase it.

Edited by Wackyracer on 01/10/2016 at 11:22

Any - Worn Tyres - SLO76
Always was about selling more rubber than any real safety issue. My mother had the fear of death put into her by her local main dealer when they told her that her the tyres on her Honda Jazz were unsafe. Checking them over and they've all at least 3mm left. For a low mileage local running car they've a lot of life left.
Any - Worn Tyres - scot22

Why did he say the tyres were unsafe ? Was there another reason ? If it was purely on depth then I would make a complaint.

If over a certain level there is only a marginal gain then I am happy to pay to secure any improvement in safety.

Any - Worn Tyres - Bolt

There doesnt seem to be many now that even check tyre presures let alone how much tread they have, in most cases drivers only worry about the tyre being inflated

apart from that they dont seem to care untill MOT or motor is serviced, when they then think they are being ripped off when told the tyres need replacing due to tread being below legal limit/split in sidewall, I`ve seen a lot like that in car parks

Any - Worn Tyres - mark999
From my experience of Michelin tyres the sidewalls will be badly cracked well before the tread is worn
Mark
Any - Worn Tyres - John Boy

This might be a good time to say that I find these "I always replace my tyres long before they reach the legal limit" posts rather smug. Fine, if you've got the dosh, but lots of people haven't. Aside from that, the production and disposal of tyres has an environmental impact. So, on this issue, I'm with Cyd and SLO76.

Any - Worn Tyres - Engineer Andy

Does that mean you're out there every day when the tyres near 1.6mm anywhere over the tyre width, checking again, so that you replace them as they hit 1.6mm, because before that, they're perfectly safe (1.61mm), then not (1.59mm)? Bearing in mind the text on this post is about 2-3mm high, I would find it difficult to tell 1.6mm from 1.7mm, especially across the width of the tyre everywhere.

Would you like, say, all safety margins on say, welds, stress tests etc on cars, trains, planes etc to be just 6.25% over the minimum that they will fail under conditions you may find under normal use (that includes having to take avoiding action in an emergency in poor weather)? I doubt it.

Is you life worth risking just so you can get an extra 5k miles out of a set of tyres, that might save you £50 over the life of the car? I don't have 'loads of dosh', and I look for the best deals on cars and car parts (including tyres), but I personally would never compromise safety just for a few quid. I'd rather buy a lesser car (less gadgets, fancy paint etc) and buy high quality tyres when I feel they give not enough grip/poor weather performance, whatever the tread depth left.

I'm relatively lucky, as I'm light-footed, my tyres last around 40k miles+ and I have replaced them due to age (see above post for reasons), even though they had 4mm or more tread left. I did not want to wait for me to crash before I was forced to replace them and other things, at a cost far higher than a few £££. Don't forget, you're not just risking your life, but any passenger, other road users and pedestrians.

No smugness, just good sense.

Any - Worn Tyres - gordonbennet

Tyres are ridiculously good value, unless you buy cars sitting on the most stupid sizes and/or insist on the most expensive brands.

They are, the last time i looked, the only thing keeping me out of the scenery, and if we can't afford to reshod the cars we own we really have to wonder if motoring is for us.

There's nothing smug about wanting as good grip as you can find for a decent price, i'd much rather replace my Vredestein/Nokian/Uniroyals @ 3+mm than be forced to run Michelin/Continental, which cost twice or three times the price, down to 1.7mm before changing.

This is probably tempting sods law, but over my years driving lorries i've had umpteen blow outs when i worked for companies not so cautious (thankfully never a steer axle blow out, the one rapid deflater over a period of about 20 secs from 56mph was scary enough), but haven't had one for years now.

Where i work take maintenance very seriously, we run new only Bridgestones or if in short supply an equivalent alternative such as Conti, replaced @ or before 3mm min, the cost savings in minimal unplanned down time and vehicle damage via flailing treads more than pays for the company's indulgence, its also comforting for us at the wheel the weights we run at.

Any - Worn Tyres - skidpan

I am firmly in the replacing tyres at approx 3mm camp and have been for over 20 years. In the grand scheme of things tyres cost sod all. I get approx 20,000 miles out of a set of 4 rotating them when I put them back after removing the winter tyres. They cost about £70 a tyre for decent mid to upper brand so £280 a set. During those 20,000 miles (about 2 1/2 years) I spend approx £2200 on fuel (at current prices), £500 on insurance and £500 on servicing, £75 on VED a total of £3275.

So a set of tyres is about 8% of my motoring expenses which is peanuts when tyres are safety critical.

Considering the last set of Michelins I had developed severe sidewall cracks at 3 years old (5mm tread remaining) I will take Michelins advice with a pinch of salt. But Micheling did reimburse me for the unused tread confirming the tyres were dangerous.

Any - Worn Tyres - MrPogle

youtu.be/0jHmZcYACtI

A few years old now but from 70 in the wet, when the 3mm car has stopped, the 1.6mm car is still doing 50. That is the difference between not having an accident and being dead.

Any - Worn Tyres - Ian_SW

One thing I can say from experience is that Michelin tyres with 2-3mm of tread are significantly better than budget Chinese tyres with 5-6mm. A few months back I had a hire car that seemed to have about as much grip in the wet as you'd expect on snow (with winter tyres) but more unpredictable.

After a few miles, I stopped and checked tread depth and pressure, thinking the hire company had given me a car with bald or nearly flat tyres but both were fine. As I had no legal reason to tell the hire company to change the car, I continued very cautiously, having to go slower than the other traffic in multi-lane roundabouts to be sure of keeping the car in the lane.

When I returned the car, I did comment about it, but they didn't seem that bothered. They probably were thinking I had been thrashing the car!! I then drove my own car, which was booked in for new tyres a couple of days later, back along the same road about an hour later in very similar conditions and had no issues with grip at all.

So in my view, someone a bit short of money is better off carrying on a few more months on 3mm worn decent brand tyres, rather than being told they must get new tyres right then and go any buy some £30 'budget' replacements with more tread.

I hate to think what nearly worn out budget tyres would be like though!!

Any - Worn Tyres - scot22

I am neither smug nor loaded with dosh and will never compromise where safety is concerned. Skodalan has raised, in my view, an important consideration. It does come down to thinking and making sure your car is as safe as it can be.

If, like me, you are not knowledgeable find out from someone you can trust.

Any - Worn Tyres - nick62
Bang-on Skodalan.

Cheap tyres are cheap for a reason.

Never had any issues with Michelin or Continental.

One had new tyres on a company car at one of the well known tyre centres. ...................... "Oh, yes sir, we can fit you these Dunlops for £x,y,z .."

When I went to collect, they were their own brand and I wasn't a happy bunny, but the manager was adamant they were manufactured by Dunlop for them, (yes, I'm still a mug 25 years later). Absolute pile of rubbish, I should have sued them for misrepresentation as the car was terrible, particularly on the early nineties A1 north of Wetherby, where the HGV ruts were notorious. It drove like the back axle was loose!

Edited by nick62 on 03/10/2016 at 15:28

Any - Worn Tyres - gordonbennet
I hate to think what nearly worn out budget tyres would be like though!!

I can tell you and long before they get worn, hopeless.

Couple of years ago i spotted a set of new tyres of very well known make from the far east but not China, right size for my Merc, thought it might be an ideal opportunity to see if my admitted tyre prejudices were still valid.

New tyres on, amazingly quiet, had 'silent' stamped on the sidewall which was absolutely true, smoothest ride ever had in any of our Mercs, first year seemed good, my previous prejudices proved groundless.

Not used them in the winter at all so can't comment, second year few times i noticed rather too easy to provoke wheelspin, Merc has some serious poke and no traction control of any descrption, then a few weeks later going to work one morning in the wet two completely unprovoked full sideways oversteers fortunately easily controlled....7mm tread still on them but no way was i keeping the things, previous prejudices reconfirmed.

That same day i ordered a set of Uniroyal Rainsports, normal unstickable grip resumed, valuable lesson learned and the older i get the more i come to realise i'm still learning every day.

From many years ago my experiences of Mich is of long wearing tyres but with nothing to write home about wet grip, my Ventora of many years ago had ZX's fitted, almost uncontrollable in the wet might as well have been on casters, treated myself to a set of the then new Goodyear Unisteel, different car.

More recently the C2VTS we had for a while came on Pilotes with 5+mm remaining, noisy and prone to a nasty torque steer sensation, replaced with Vredestein Sportracs, quieter better grip smoother ride (any improvement would be great on that concrete sprung thing) and no more torque steer.

More recently still, Outlander 1 came on appropriate Michs, hard ride and noisy, replaced with a used set of Federals (would you credit it) which were already fitted to a better condition set of wheels than ours at the right price, result quieter smoother ride, can't comment on grip because the car itself is virtually glued to the road whatever the road surface, Subaru challenging grip and handling.

Thats only my experience and others may find the complete opposite.

Any - Worn Tyres - Engineer Andy

It appears as though some tyres just aren't suited to some cars as per your, mine and many others' experiences. The weird thing is that quite often, many poor tyres are the factory-fitted ones! I mean, surely the car manufacturers MUST have tested several brands/variants of tyre before deciding upon the best to use - why on earth would they want to fit a tyre that is completely unsuitable for the car?

My Mazda 3 (01/2006) had Bridgestone ER30s as the original-fit tyre - ok for the first year or so (and 5-10k miles), but they got REALLY hard soon after and were really noisy, eventually losing wet grip as well. The only good point about them I found was the decent mpg, though I'd rather have high safety and comfort with reasonable (at least) handling instead. They also get really low scores in user reviews on the Tyre Reviews website.

Not sure they've learned their lesson to a degree on the latest model - apparently getting hold of replacements for the factory-fitted 18in Dunlop Sport Maxx on the Sport model in the UK is nigh on impossible. To be honest, the car isn't 'sporty' enough (even the 165 model) to warrant 18in rims anyway - 17in versions would've been fine, cost less (including replacement tyres) and given better mpg, which apparently is the reason why the don't fit the space-saver tyre as standard (saving weight- saving fuel).

I sometimes think the car manufacturers just go with whichever tyre firm gives them the best 'deal' (if you know what I mean!) without obviously fitting cheapo ditch-finders. Its not as though they pass on the 'benefit' of getting a good tyre 'deal' to the customer, who often has little choice than to either change (at their expense) to another tyre or go a model up/down to avoid a bad one (no 17in rim option on the Mazda3 Sport).