Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 13:26
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

Hello. I've read the Highway Code a few times, but I can't seem to find a few things there. I will try to explain the situations and include pictures as well.

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1) Two lanes merge into one (in a built-up area) and there's no road markings (no curved arrow)

oi68.tinypic.com/k4xw7r.jpg

- Who has right of way?

- If people decide to merge in turn, who should move off first (car on the left or on the right)?

I've noticed people usually merge in turn. However, the Highway Code recommends this only if safe and appropriate "when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic accident" (rule 134), which is not the case here. I am not able to find anything else on this matter there.

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2) 4 exit mini roundabout - car at 6 o'clock turns right, car at 12 o'clock goes straight ahead (they arrive at the same time)

oi67.tinypic.com/17ae5u.jpg

- Who has right of way?

I've noticed no one knows what to do in this situation and no one usually forces their way through either, so perhaps it's the same situation as when 4 cars meet on a 4 exit roundabout - no one has right of way and they all either stop and wait there forever or everyone moves off at the same time and crashes into each other.

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3) 3 lanes to turn right - 4 lanes at the other end of the junction

oi65.tinypic.com/2dvozl.jpg

oi63.tinypic.com/25a8d2p.jpg

- If I am in the middle lane (second left/second right), should I end up in the second left lane or second right lane? (please, see both pictures)

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Thank you in advance for your answers.

Edited by Dunno123 on 19/09/2016 at 13:27

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 13:37
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - brum

My best guesses

1. The one in the left lane has priority on the basis that the other cannot complete his overtaking manouver and should give way.

2. The one turning right has right of way once he has entered the roundabout.

3. Aim for second left, but concede if the person to your left forces homself into that lane. Highly unlikely road layout I must say, in situations that are not obvious, its an obligation of the road authority to provide road marking to guide the flow, in which case follow the lines...

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 14:01
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

Brum:

1) It's not overtaking, they are both waiting next to each other on a red light to move forward. Even if there was a green light, it still wouldn't be overtaking, because both of them are in their own lane that they chose while both lanes happen to go straight ahead and merge into one (they could continue next to each other if there were two lanes at the other end and the car on the right wouldn't be overtaking, he might be in the right lane because he needs to turn right at the next junction).

2) Which part of the Highway Code states that?

3) It doesn't seem to work like that in the second picture.

Edited by Dunno123 on 19/09/2016 at 14:06

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 13:45
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - RobJP

1. Nobody has 'right' of way. A good guide is that, If there was a collision between 2 vehicles where both refused to give way to each other, then it would be 50:50.

2. If the 2 cars arrive at the same time, then there is no reason why they cannot both enter the roundabout at the same time, in which case they would both make their manoeuvers at the same time, without inconveniencing each other.

3. Unsure.

Always remember, if at a roundabout or other junction (relevant for case 2 especially) : if someone has their indicators on, all it means is that their indicators work. It should not be taken as proof or intention of any pending manoeuver.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 14:03
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

RobJP:

2) They can't enter at the same time, they would crash into each other as it's a mini roundabout.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 14:23
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Galaxy

1. They should both be prepared to give way. If both cars were completely level I personally would look across to the other driver and beckon him to go ahead of me. But I would be very cautious and continually monitoring the situation.

There's actually a road very close to where I live which is just like the one decribed and I've seen several near-misses and motorist flare-ups when someone has forced themself in front in such a situation. If there happens to be a line of cars in each lane then the restriction should operate like a zip-fastener, and I believe this is actually mentioned in the Highway Code.

2. I would think the car turning right would have priority but, once again, I would treat such a situation with the greatest of care.

3. I would think the first would be the safest thing to do.

The Highway Code is great but, the trouble is, as you've already found, OP, it only deals with perfect situations.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 14:58
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

1) In London you see a road like this every 5-10 minutes and no, it is not mentioned in the Highway Code. There's the rule 134 which I quoted in my first post, but that only applies to traffic travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic accident".

2) Why would you think so though? Highway Code doesn't state anything like that anywhere.

3) Would you do it on the road in the second picture?

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 14:59
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - ExA35Owner

I remember reading somewhere that mini roundabouts don't actually reduce the number of collisions at junctions, but that their severity is much reduced: fender benders rather than injury. The reason was claimed to be that drivers were a bit more tentative about "right of way" and giving way.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 17:51
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - RobJP

RobJP:

2) They can't enter at the same time, they would crash into each other as it's a mini roundabout.

I fail to see what that's got to do with anything. As you aren't supposed to drive OVER the roundabout, but AROUND it (yes, even for a mini roundabout you are supposed to go round it) it should be entirely feasible for 2 vehicles to be on the roundabout at any one time.

As another answer has said, however, the Highway Code doesn't cover all possible instances and road / junction / roundabout types. It's physically impossible to do so.

Interestingly, in the driving test, all it says for mini roundabouts is that you are supposed to give way to traffic from the right. In which case, the car turning right probably has priority, as opposed to the car going straight on - note 'has priority'. Not 'has right of way'.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 19:24
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - brum

I think the OP is flamebaiting.

First he asks for opinions because he doesnt know the answers, then he goes on to lecture everyone with apparent great knowledge.

The answer to all his initial questions is USE COMMON SENSE AND BE CAUTIOUS. Im sure thats somewhere in the highway code.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 19:57
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - John Boy

That's exactly what I was thinking, Brum. Mini-roundabouts are the classic example where you often need to be assertive, but also ready to do an emergency stop. That's driving.

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Mon 19 Sep 2016 22:33
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Bilboman

An interesting set of situations. It occurs to me that 1. and 3. do require, as others have said, common sense and any kind of collision is bound to result in a "knock for knock". I remember that some time ago the principle of "zip merging" as a traffic rule was mooted and there was even talk of a new road sign to enforce its use, but ministers finally chickened out of it, reasoning that there is already too much "after you - no you - no you" in Britain and if there is the slightest suspicion of someone jostling for position and (horror!) pushing in, all Hell would break loose. (Look what happens when a lane closure sign appears and drivers either meekly queue for 4 miles ignoring an empty lane or else race ahead and try to push in and risk summary execution!
There are quite a few of these on some 80 km/h dual carriageways near where I live (in Spain) and the heightened sense of danger makes people a lot more careful and they always seem to merge without bashing each other. Awarding priority to one lane over the other would cause unnecessary friction IMHO.
Alternating priority at junctions seems to work in the Channel Islands, as does the famous "four way stop" in North American junctions. A lot easier with wider, emptier roads and almost universal automatic gearboxes, of course. In a holiday in San Francisco, I successfully negotiated several 4 ways on very steep hills around the Ashbury Haight area and was surprised at how cautious and courteous drivers were.
As for the mini roundabout - I thought they usually had three exits, in which case the "12 o'clock" can carry on straight if he has time and space but should otherwise give way to "9 o'clock" if in doubt. My instinct would be to carry on if the other car had not reached the first exit, but slow down ready to stop if he was "making progress" and our paths were likely to cross.

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Thu 22 Sep 2016 18:57
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

brum:

Thank you for your kind answer.

May I ask you where I lectured anyone though? It seems to me that you must've misunderstood one of my posts as I've only been asking questions. Thank you in advance for clearing this up.

I agree that using common sense is the best thing to do. However, if you use your common sense and happen to have an accident with another person who used their common sense too and happened to have a different opinion from you, you will probably want to justify your common sense based on what the Highway Code says. Or would you use your common sense even if it was contrary to what the Highway Code says (against the rules)? That's the reason I ask these questions, I want to find out whether I missed it out in the Highway Code or whether it's really not there.

Edited by Dunno123 on 22/09/2016 at 19:05

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Thu 22 Sep 2016 18:35
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

It's often not physically possible to go "around" it. Lots of the mini roundabouts in my area are really tiny and going at the same time is simply not possible. Even if it was possible to go at the same time, it still doesn't say what you should do when there's a tailback on both sides (cars at 12 o'clock all going straight ahead, cars at 6 o'clock all turning right). I believe it would be fair to take turns.

Interestingly, in the driving test, all it says for mini roundabouts is that you are supposed to give way to traffic from the right. In which case, the car turning right probably has priority, as opposed to the car going straight on - note 'has priority'. Not 'has right of way'.

I don't understand why. It says you should give priority to traffic approaching from the right (first entrance on your right ... which of course doesn't have to be physically on your right, it could be the one ahead of you if there was nothing physically on your right, for example like this: "-|"). But if there are 4 exits (shape +), then there's one entrance on your right, one entrance on your left and one entrance in front of you (where the other car is) and it is the same for the other car.

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Thu 22 Sep 2016 19:14
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Dunno123

The 2nd paragraph is a quote (can't edit that post anymore).

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Thu 22 Sep 2016 21:50
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - drd63

I've just been driving in Italy, the answer to all these questions is whoever has the biggest balls.

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Thu 22 Sep 2016 22:32
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - drd63

I've just been driving in Italy, the answer to all these questions is whoever has the biggest balls.

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Sat 24 Sep 2016 19:28
Highway Code - Can't find answers to my questions - Avant

I usually edit duplicate posts, but perhaps I won't in this case. :)

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