Pugugly has said what I would have needed 150 words to convey.
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Yes and that's why our firm's 1989 Toyota will still start and be drivable when a nuclear bomb has rendered the BMW useless.
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A bit unfair on the rest of the world, the Japs being the only ones with experience of attacks from nukes......so far
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KB - I think we can assume that most people that visit this forum are car-holics with a motoring knowledge above that of Joe Public, many of whom (especially the ladies) are seduced by the style of a vehicle, irrespective of it`s reliability. We also have to thank the power of advertising to inflence buying decisions, - lets face it, how many full-blooded males bought Clios, because of the charms of Nicole ???
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What's a Clio? Bit small, isn't it? Gotta have a V-8 4 X 4 truck that you have to climb up into with that big old exhaust rumble. Girls love 'em (at least mine does). (grin)
It's an old old discussion but the answer is quite simple. Japanese cars work, they continue to work and they seldom give trouble even after by the look of them they ought to have been giving trouble 5 years ago. Keep the designer accessory stuff for Friday night cruises but go Nippongo the rest of the week.
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A bit unfair on the rest of the world, the Japs being the only ones with experience of attacks from nukes......so far
Has Iraq got a motor industry?
Fortunately we all have our own taste/needs/wants when it comes to buying cars or we would all be drivng around in shapeless mini-mpvs from korea. I admit that my own choice of car is a triumph of love over practicality, but that's what makes us individuals.
I've had a number of Jap and European motors and whilst I accept the bombproof nature of them (pardon the pun), the ones that stir the are few and far between. Sporty estate, TD lump and good looks anyone? Any oriental suggestions? No? Er, I'll stick to Europe then, ta. But then that's just my needs and taste.
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there's a "soul" missing from that post. Giventhe emotive subject matter, kind of essential.... Sorry!
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I have no doubt Don and Dick have a plan for assembling Lincolns in Basra once rthe fuss dies down....
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I have never bought a British made car (as far as I know) since I owned a Rover 2000TC. It was a beautiful car and, in its day, a bit state of the art. De Dion rear suspension, inboard rear discs, aluminium bonnet etc., but it was poorly put together. As I drove along bits used to fall off it, including the drive shaft on one occasion which was a two piece affair. It even managed to catch fire! I switched to Japanese because they would start in the morning when the Fords were still stationary and they had things like heaters that worked. They were also the manufacturers who pushed the envelope as far as 'extras' were concerned and, were it not for them, I expect most of us would be driving around in British cars without such 'luxuries' as heated rear windows and central locking. In the last ten years I have become a Mazda fan, not just because of their reliability but because they had the strength of character to persevere with the Wankel engine when everybody else gave up. I have owned a Nissan Skyline and am impressed by the Mazda RX8, which is attracting a great deal of interest, so I feel that the comment about jap cars being bland does not entirely hold water. I am driving a 626 2.0i Executive, with every available extra on a six year old car, and it all works. It never uses any oil or misses a beat. What more could I ask?
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Just remember that many Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans are built (assembled?) in the UK.....!
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Just remember that many Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans are built (assembled?) in the UK.....!
Point taken but 'assembled' seems to be the operative word here.If the British manufacturers had not lost the plot some time ago those cars would be Wolesleys, Sunbeams, Austins, Hillmans, etc. It is all very sad really. Even British built cars that receive positive endorsement on the backroom, like the Rover 214, have jap engines.
Growler, appears to be a much travelled man and I am sure that he will confirm that, in extreme conditions such as the desert where reliability is paramount, people seem to opt for japanese reliability. An example would be the Toyota Landcruiser. Landrover? No thanks!
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>>Even British built cars that receive positive endorsement on >>the backroom, like the Rover 214, have jap engines.
I thought the 1.4 was the old Rover K series engine. My understanding was that the 1.6 is a Honda engine.
Splodgeface
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Sorry, Splodge I meant 216. Your right about the 214 and most people will have noticed the difference in performance and reliability between the two engines.
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Bafta,
I find it hard to believe that a Rover 2000TC would give you so many problems. I own a 31 year old one (3500S) and the only known fault is the difficulty in getting the inboard rear discs changed. I've had it now two years and granted only done 4,000 miles but it starts first time and runs very happily especially on the very limited stocks of old 4-star. The only work done to it was a serious Waxoyl session last summer and two uprated Carbs ;) I've plans in the summer to uprate the lighting circuit and also get the gearbox replaced with a 5-speed.
As for poorly put together, it could seriously teach any car manufacturer a thing or two about build quality, why use one nut and bolt when six would do? The doors alone weigh more than a super-mini ;)
The 3.5L is notorious for having very little in the way of water and oil reserves in the engine but it a case of checking the water and oil more often. The fitting of a water reservoir tank helps in the case of the water.
As for the electrics, as far as I'm aware, they are original, quite a heavy gauge for 12V and never given me any trouble at all. Even the lighting circuit, known for problems has been troublefree.
The only criticism is vapour lock because the fuel lines are a little too close to the hot parts of the engine.
As for the perceived quality of modern cars of all the cars that gave me the most grief it would go as VW giving me the most 'empty wallets' (Blown gasket, numerous electrical gremlins) but the doors shut with a satisifying thunk. Peugeot is next, I must have bought a Friday car as the list under warranty was worrying (New injection system, new ECU, new rear window) closely followed by a Ford that I owned for six months, got frightened by a worrying MOT fail at four years old and got shot of it.
The only cars that have never given me much trouble are Rovers, I've owned two modern one, both 600s, both only consuming the usual tyres and pads. I holed a radiator once thanks to a large stone striking an unguarded part. And that was it in 60,000 miles of motoring over the last five years. The first I had was seven years old and it still flew through MOT with the odd reminder that a tyre tread was getting a bit close to its legal limit.
I'm getting a 75 next and as for all the extras you get on Japanese cars, the 75 is looking very seriously loaded for the money. 2001'S JD Power survey can't be wrong either.
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3500S,
*I find it hard to believe that a Rover 2000TC would give you so many problems.*
The 3500 was, indeed, a better car.I think I'm right in saying that it has a yank V engine which was more reliable than mine, which I blew up on one occasion. The 3500 was the police car of choice at one time and used to shift. I do remember the awful trouble I had to get parts even though it was a UK car. How do you manage with your classic? As I remember they weren't too clever for rust. That's one of the reasons, presumably, that there are not many about. Inboard discs! What was that all about? I suppose it was to keep them a bit cleaner away from the wheel. What a pain to change though.
If you've only done 2000k in two years I assume it only goes out on nice days. Mine was subjected to the remorseless daily grind and was not always happy.I wasn't querying the fact that the car wasn't built like a tank but it has design flaws. Example - the prop shafts are held together by a single bolt that can come free in transit. You don't need six bolts as long as the one you have doesn't come undone.
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The 2000 was an OHC developng 90Bhp. It's quite a robust engine, the 2000 being the only British car to finish the 1966 Monte Carlo rally (After the Cooper Minis were disqualified).
I really think you were very, very unlucky.
Well, parts availability is really good there are a number of private companies and for the 3.5L as it's been used in so many cars, parts are easy to find. The owners club commission short runs for things that are really hard to find like the bespoke rubber seals for doors etc...
Rust is the main trouble and it's no coincidence that the survivors were either Ziebarted at new or have Waxoyl or Dinitrol liberally applied with almost religious fervour.
As for the inboard discs being more centrally mounted, this was to keep the sprung weight of the axle to the minimum. The whole rear axle is a wonder of engineering, rear wheel drive but maximum road grip, fling it around and you soon find that out.
As for the prop shaft assembly, it's a new on me too.
As for mileage, it's a question of insurance and mpg that stops me driving it everyday. I feel a lot safer in it than my modern car. Many members of the two owners clubs do drive theirs everyday, some have two, one for daily use, another for more limited mileage pursuits.
Of the 250,000 made (including export models) estimates are that there are 11,000 left. A really, really good prize winner will set you back 3,500GBP.
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We had loads of the 3500 autos when in our early 20s, just one 3500S. It was absolutely mint in dark brown (sounds terrible but looked excellent). The S was a superb car for the day and huge fun, used to frequently eat reverse gear for some reason. I seem to remember its 0-100mph time was some sort of milestone for a normal(ish) saloon.
I'll never forget driving that V8 engine for the first time.
Still got the rear brake piston wind back tool somewhere, they were a pig to do.
I regarded the 4cyl 2000 as a pretty rough engine, made more so by the very sweet Triumph 2000/2500 6cyl about at the same time.
The 2200TC was nippy though.
MM
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MM
I had a newish 4 cyl 2000 that was great to drive but gave a lot of problems.
I also considered the 6 cyl Triumph 2000 but the lure of the Rover name was enough.
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Mazda6... ooops, sorry I spoke.
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Quite, even HJ has been impressed by that car. It is a lot of car for the money. I know that 'ugly' is the new car look but it is a bit angular for my taste.
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Bafta is correct. Perhaps the enduring illustration of Japanese versus "the rest" is that of the Toyota Landcruiser. I'm even talking 30 years ago before the concept of a Japanese motor industry had penetrated the Austin/Morris/Rover conciousness of the Mother Country which was already in decline but hadn't worked out the fact yet.
Iron mining country. Red earth and rocks as far as you can see. N.W. Australia. Not a tarmac'ed road anywhere. Marble Bar, allegedly the hottest place on earth. I wouldn't know but I've been there on a good day and it was 118 F in the shade. Anything was 300 miles from anything else. Red dirt roads no back up. You dangled your water cooler of the front 'roo bar because if you ran out of the wet stuff mate before you got home you might end up ou there as dry as a dead dingo's donger.
Vehicle of choice: the old original Toyota Landcruiser.
www.tlca.org/
Pig to drive, not this mobile hairdresser's salon on wheels they call the Landcruiser nowadays. This one was a gorilla. It got you there, it got you back. looked like a US Army jeep on steroids (which it basically was). Your life out there mate could depend on it. 6 cyls, 2.6 liter (think) motor, transfer box 4 X 4 no comforts that was it.
No joke, truly your life could depend on the reliability of your vehicle. You might be the only person in a thousand square km apart from a few goannas and the occasional kangaroo. Flat as a pancake nothing for miles.
Now, think. This was 1968, a bare 22 years after the Japanese had lost the war. Not too many Aussies loved those guys, too many of their kin had suffered in Changi Prison and on the Burma railroad. Australians suffered grievously at Japanese hands in WW2. No love lost for the yeller fellers. Yet this vehicle was the vehicle of choice if you wanted to tackle the woop-woop seriously. I have only known one man brave enough to take on the Gibson Desert which is the remotest most inhospitable place on earth unless you count an M25 service area, hehe) and he used one of those old original Landcruisers. I have some great slides of mine completely over the wheels in red mud and at 30 degrees of angle negotiating some creek with Colin trying to balance the back and shouting "jeesus mate, watch it, don't shake the beer up too much". You had a winch on the front and kind of grappling iron you could attach to a local rock if you got into major problems.
You might see the odd Pommie Land Rover parked outside the Crossroads Hotel in Humpty Doo for the six o'clock swill, well they bought the stuff from England out of sentiment for the vanished Empire, but you bought a Toyota for the real serious stuff.
I have changed a clutch on one of those LC's in less than an hour, anyone with a Swiss Army knife and the toolkit with the vehicle could fix 'em.
I respectfully posit this quality is what got the Japanese auto industry where it is today. They spotted the weakpoint in the industry, quality, and they filled it. Didn't take long before people caught on. Bye bye BMC, wake up Ford and GM.
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Without going into the outback, when SWMBO (just reading "She", to be irrelevant) took to car using with Imps and Vivas and Cortinas and things, I was forever being 'phoned up because she had ground to a standstill again (why me, not the AA who were paid I never fully found out). The stupid things that happened, like a coil becoming disconnected because it had been held on BELOW the battery by sort of screw and spring clip things, were just ridiculous.
Then she stopped for petrol, saw a Carina, and liked it. I never had to go out again.
I would not call the Supra Twin Turbo bland, either.
Tomo
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Growler and Tomo. You've said it all. Great story BG; I had hoped that I might elicit such a response!
I was only talking the other day with some friends about how every car journey used to be an adventure because you never expected to arrive without incident. A wise man never left home without his toolkit. They even stopped in the rain. Remember the Mini and that stupid coil just waiting for a bath? We all learned a lot about how to keep our vehicles on the move but, on the whole, reliability does it for me.
I am glad that KB has found a few supporters for his original thread.
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Short note of clarificatioin to bafta & Tomo....if you read my post again you'll see that I wrote :- Everyone knows that they have an excellent reliability record, that they *were* renowned for copying other peoples designs and principles and making bland but efficient clones.......
Note the deliberate use of *were* and not *are*.
Agree entirely that the Supra is anything but bland. I don't think my Yaris is bland either (admittedly the Starlet it replaced could have been but it was eminently practical, reliable, economical and simple to maintain). There are stacks of distinctive Japanese models, some exotic, some, like the Landcruiser, outstanding for their abilities as described by Growler.
It's my own view that they've moved on and now present the obvious choice, hence the gist of my post......why doesn't everyone drive Japanese? And from the replies received, it seems that, at the moment, most respondants generally agree.
KB.
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KB. We were just reinforcing your point that japanese design has moved on apace and stylish examples can be found. Tomo's Supra Turbo being a good example. Although the respondents from whom you have heard agree, we haven't heard much from the dissenters ie. those who hate jap cars with a vengeance and will only buy european.
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Indeed, bafta, I was expecting perhaps one or two broadside from the odd confirmed 'non-Japanese' enthusiasts (of which there must be... a few/some/lots...delete as appropriate), hence my plea for 'no personal attacks' as I hoped to keep it civil. Am a bit surprised that so many responded as they did.
KB.
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Bafta, my God I'd forgotten that Mini coil in the wet weather!
A superb transportation concept even more than a car per se as we know. But perfection has to boast one flaw so that we can recognise it for what it is! That was the coil.
It was a dark and rainy night c. 1966. Chelsea Bridge. 1959 Morris Mini has failed to proceed. A petulant Jane in whom I have invested quite a bit in terms of Bacardi and Cokes at the Bistroteque in Victoria Street in the hopes of some return sits petulantly in the passenger seat puffing on an Embassy tipped distinctly less than impressed at this turn of events.
Wipe off coil with piece of newspaper. Can you just turn the key Jane and see if it starts, sweetie. Yikes! 50,000 volts through the right arm......
...to the thread. An automobile can be either a utensil like your washing machine in which case you don't really care what make it is so long as it gets the job done (to this day I can never rememebr what is the brand of our washing machine) or it can be something more personal.
All I know, if I was a beanie and I did the numbers, Jap cars would be high on the list for the fleet recommendation at the next budget meeting. If I want something to play with then I'll buy an Alfa for the weekends but I won't take it seriously.
Goodness, who knows. It's your money anyway, buy what the hell you want (this is Growlette's opinion as she looks over my shoulder).
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Growler, I hope for her sake we didn't met the same Jane. She must have got heartily tired of meeting young men in mohair trousers with Minis that stopped in the rain. Aah, those volts! It made up for getting wet.
I agree with you that car buying is not all about reliability. It is a personal thing and fun comes into it. Best to have one vehicle for reliability and lots for fun!
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Sorry , bad taste comment. But I drive the Jap car quite often, its just had £30.00 quid spent on its brakes and it feels and drives like a a car a 1/4 of its age, as I've said before its 110,000 mile gearbox feels better than the BM's and its engine is a smooth as a pint of John Smith's. There was a feeling in the Office that the brake episode might have resulted in it being put down, so to speak. However it lives to fight another day at least until its next MoT in April.....then who knows.
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Why don't we all drive Japanese cars?Well in many parts of the world that is just about all that people drive,USA and Canada,huge market for Nissan,Toyota etc,Middle East contries,African countries and of course Asian,and NZ/Aus.These places all value reliability.Of course the French and Italians won't understand it.
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one more crack about anyone being bombed or nuked and I'll drop the thread.
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Mark, it would be a shame to drop the thread now because of a minority of indisciplined respondents. We are still awaiting a surge of replies from the commited europhiles. Where are the beemer brigade? They can't all be parked on their roofs.
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