Quick Q chaps.
Am at daughter's and she has just had probs with above car. She commutes 50 miles per day, mainly motorway and she does not hang about. Her '04 Clio has done 65k and had a new EGR about 18 months ago. The other day it suddenly lost power on the M11, dropping from 80 mph (oops, I mean 70mph) to 40mph. She got to hard shoulder, called RAC who came out, could find nothing wrong, restarted it and she carried on. On return commute, all went well until final mile or so when it repeatedly stalled at roundabouts, traffic lights etc. Next morning it drove OK to dealer, who could not find a fault (or fault code), next morning they took it for a longer drive, with "computer reader" plugged in and diagnosed an EGR fault. On inspection they said it was "all clogged up with carbon". So, EGR has been replaced - cost of £270.
So,
a. Does this diagnosis sound reasonable? (Should an EGR fail every 18months/30k?)
b. Does £270 sound reasonable - seems rather a lot to me, but then I know nowt about it!
c. Is this a regular occurrence with 1.5DCi engines? I don't like the thought of my daughter commuting up and down M11 every day in a car which suddenly losses power.
Sorry, not as quick a Q as I anticipated!! Thanks for your patience!
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Phil
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In answer to question c), the Renault dCi engines are notorious for EGR valve problems, but this is the first time I've heard of it on a car that gets regular long runs and driven fairly enthusiastically. The problem on these engines (apart from the £270 repair bill) is that if the EGR valve sticks shut instead of open, it often leads to failure of the turbocharger as the exhaust gas is also used to cool the turbo on these engines, and if this cooling gas is shut off when the EGR valve dies, the turbo can overheat and subsequently fail.
If I understand correctly, Renault are well aware of this problem, and if the car is serviced at a Renault dealer, they are supposed to remove and clean the EGR valve as a matter of course at every service to stop it coking up to the point where it stops working. They also have something called the Yellow OTS scheme which effectively covers you against the cost of an EGR valve related turbo failure up to 5 years / 90,000 miles provided the car has a full Renault history.
Fair enough, but it would be nicer if they fixed the problem in the first place.
Cheers
DP
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DP: re "it often leads to failure of the turbocharger as the exhaust gas is also used to cool the turbo on these engines, and if this cooling gas is shut off when the EGR valve dies, the turbo can overheat and subsequently fail. " can you explain the cause of a failure? The turbo depends on exhaust gas flow for its very purpose. The EGR as I understand it, feeds a proportion of the exhaust back into the combustion chamber to reduce oxides of nitrogen by reducing combustion temperature. However, it only does this at part throttle, so at full power, the EGR is switched out and the turbo sees exhaust gases at full temperature. I'd guess the turbo has to be designed to take this: towing up hill in the Alps for instance? Be that as it may, I'd be inclined to think that the misfire is due to a mechanical problem (coking - cleanable, and avoidable by using low-Noak synthetic oils) possibly combined with a fault in the pipes that connect the various parts and often "overlooked" in the urge to sell a bigger, more expensive bit of kit to the punter. And repeat to the great satisfaction of the dealer accountants, because the cause is not addressed.....
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Phil
This is indeed a bit odd. As DP says; it's not normal on any DCi that's well thrashed and very unusual on the 1.5 which is a different layout. What engine oil does it run; GTX?
If it was "clogged with carbon" why didn't they just clean it instead of changing a £150 valve. I've never seen a 1.5 one clogged and only changed them for, built-in, position sensor faults.
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thanks for those quick replies DP and Screwloose. I did do a forum search and went on Renault and other messageboards and could not find many references at all to this happening on the 1.5DCi engine. Would seem to be fairly unusual especially since this car seems to operate in a way that would mitigate against the possibility of it "clogging up".
Will have a word with garage when we go to pick it up this morning. Not sure what oil has been used - but car has been serviced at Renault dealers since new so should have correct type. Will also ask why it was not just cleaned and whether I can see the old one and get back to you.
Thanks again
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Phil
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OK, been and collected the car. They seemed very honest about it. Mechanic came and saw us after we asked a few questions and brought old part to show us. He had cleaned it and retested it but still showed as faulty - he even offered to connect it to test machine to show us how it was done. He pointed ouut that it was intermittent fault and they had road tested it several times before it showewd up as faulty and only did it when being driven some distance rather than when connected to machine in workshop. He agreed that it shouldn't have gone so early and shouldn't be so carboned up on a car with its usage - most likely on a car that went on many short journeys and was unserviced. He did say that he hadn't been informed that it had previously been replaced 18 months ago and offered to give the "whole anti-pollution system" a thorough inspection if car was brought in again, but thought most likely explanation was " a faulty part"
He seemed very reasonable about it and fully prepared to explain it all to us.
Don't know that there is much purpose in taking this much further - perhaps just accept it as unfortunate occurrence?
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Phil
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Sorry to bring this to the top again but this Clio broke down again day before yesterday - near Cambridge. It just stuttered to a halt. Having had it "repaired " only 2 weeks previously, she rang the Renault garage in N London (no naming , no shaming!) who told her to "drive it down - it will make it". Well, it got a few yards then she had to push it back into side of road. RAC then came out, identified "a couple of pipes which had not been connected properly, one was something to do with oxygen " said daughter, tried to get it going again, failed and towed her the 60 miles to garage in London. They have now "repaired it, it wasn't the same fault as before, hang on I'll find out exactly what it was, oh yes, it was the "absolute sensor"(!!). Anyway we'll deliver it back to your house, we've fixed it for free".(!!)
When she rang garage again to ask how come it kept failing they said it was "an old car ('53 reg!!), had done a lot of miles (60k for a diesel???) and "you've got to accept these things - my new car has problems" . Is it a Renault asked daughter, "yes" said he.
Anyway, she is sending me all details of probems with car over last 4 years, is there any point in pursuing this with Renault HQ? (she is on her 4th Renault dealer - none of whom seem to show any concern)
She has also lost all faith in Renault and Clios(and French cars!!) despite her 2 previous cars being Renault - a 5 and an old Clio neither of which gave any trouble at all and is considering a "new" (not necessarily brand new) car
So far she has mentioned Honda Civic , Seat Leon, Toyota Corolla, and Skoda Fabia. (About which I know very little!)
She has a 60 mile commute each day (London to near Cambridge) so needs something not too big but comfortable and economical - recommendations please (not Focus or Astra she says - I don't know why!)
Thanks for your patience and apologies for long post!
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Phil
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Yellow OTS only covers 1.9 dCi F9Q engines built up to June 2003. The 1.5 is not covered.
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Quick(!) update on this.
Car stuttered to yet another halt ten days ago near Cambridge. She called out RAC who spent some time on it. RAC man said that he saw a brief flicker on his computer which indicated a throttle fault. He reckoned it was the throttle potentiometer. (If it was EGR the engine management light would show) I drove Clio back to London during which time it stuttered (stalled) 6 times. RAC man had said that if it did this I should quickly switch off and on again which should reset the potentiometer which I did (quite entertaining while driving down M11) and it did and this would confirm that it was potentiometer not an EGR fault.
She went to garage and asked them to replace throttle potentiometer (they were somewhat reluctant because it did not show on their computer) which they did. Ten days later she got car back with new potentiometer and has since driven her 60 mile commute and back twice and the car has behaved faultlessly (I am tempting fate here!) so it looks like the potentiometer was the fault and the replacement EGR valve was irrelevant. Well done to RAC man for spotting what Renault dealers had failed to diagnose on several occasions. Pity she has had to pay for a new EGR (£200ish) which may not have been necessary.
Moral?
1.Potentiometer is a heck of a lot cheaper than an EGR valve replacement!
2. Throttle cable may be a better bet than "fly-by-wire" potentiometers etc!
Thanks for help and suggestions from Backroomers on this and another thread about it.
Sorry for long post.
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Phil
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There's another thread.... www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=51...4
Mentioned my ex's problem with Clio EGR valve on that thread. Just to clarify, the valve itself clogging up wasn't the problem - the built-in "electronic actuator" (words of the auto-electrician that fixed it) was kaput. Unfortunately it's part of the valve assembly and the whole lot was replaced, for significantly less than £270!! (try about £100 less!!!)
Her Clio also travelled in excess of 50 miles a day, being hammered to the redline frequently. When the EGR went, the engine sounded strained even under moderate acceleration, MPG plummeted, and the noise levels went right up. It also had a "misfire" at idle, and was very lumpy when taking up drive. Within a few months the problem had returned, and she traded the car in.
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My decision never to buy a Renault seems a good one based on the above..
.Customer service? Designed and tested?
madf
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Have to agree madf. I don't think daughter will buy another. Pity really because her first car was an old (B reg) Ren 5 which she saved for and bought herself while still at school - no probs in a few years and she sold it to a friend who also enjoyed good service.Replaced with a Clio 1.9 diesel (N reg I think) Again, faultless service from it for a few years (only prob was a stone through radiator). Having graduated and worked for a while in a very good job she decided to treat herself to a new car. Now 3 and a half years old and continual problems, not helped by unsympathetic and not very good main dealers who seemed unable to solve problems to the extent that she (and her Mum!) worry all the time where she might next be stranded. Appeals to Renault UK have met a negative response.
She is currently looking for a replacement - Japanese names seem to figure very prominently. Even as a Cit fan, I agree with her.
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Phil
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She is currently looking for a replacement - Japanese names seem to figure very prominently. Even as a Cit fan I agree with her.
If it's any help my ex traded her dodgy Clio in for a Kia Rio CRDi - same MPG, double the power, half the noise, similar insurance. The Koreans have overtaken the French with their excellent diesel engines - the Rio's is chain-cam too, so no belt to cost a fortune every 5 years (or snap in the meantime). If I find myself having to drive longer distances in future I'll be changing my Japanese petrol car for a Korean diesel.
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Thanks Greg, not thought of that - looks good, and good value - have sent her link to Kia Rio website
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Phil
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>Phil
I bought a 3 year old Yaris diesel 13 months ago.
So far the only problem I've had was a nail in a rear tyre and the Toyota service was cheap £110 ish and excellent. Plus an average 58mpg : mainly urban driving.
Can highly recommend: nice brakes as well especially in the wet: ABS and brake assist: often have both working in bad conditions.
(I drove a 1.0,1.3 and diesel and the diesel was the fastest, nicest to drive and quietest at speed...)
madf
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