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I attribute the fact that I have lived so long partly to the fact that (in my cycling days) when I approached a parked vehicle I would turn my head and look over my right shoulder to check for traffic behind me and then I would put out my right arm to signal that I was pulling out to pass the parked vehicle. If I didn't think it was safe to pass, I would stop and wait until it was safe. I can't remember the last time I saw a cyclist take any of these precautions. They must all have a death wish nowadays.
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I was following one today, about 100 yards from a roundabout. As he heard my car approach behind, he glanced over his shoulder, then swung out to the crown of the road to stop me passing. At the roundabout, he signalled and turned right.
Thoroughly selfish.
I cycle too, btw.
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I used to have a rear-view mirror on my bicycle's handlebars. It didn't mean that I stopped looking over my shoulder. But I had the mirror angled to show if there were any cars approaching close behind. That way, I could make sure there wasn't a car about to pass me before looking round, with the associated risk of wobbling.
My cycling is mostly recreational - we have some nice sustrans cycle tracks locally plus byways - other than that I tend to just ride on country roads. The mirror got broken - by someone else, not me, and it hasn't been replaced.
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I was following one today about 100 yards from a roundabout. As he heard my car approach behind he glanced over his shoulder then swung out to the crown of the road to stop me passing. At the roundabout he signalled and turned right.
That's normal, isn't it? If you were 100yds. from it, he was nearer, and about to turn right - perhaps he thought that many people would "cut him up" and was pre-empting this, or trying to. I don't support some actions taken by cyclists, but this might be a legitimate one.
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100 yards is a bit far out to be hogging the road in my book. This wasn't a speed merchant, it was a plodder toodling along at walking pace.
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Possible. I was just trying to explore possible reasons. Another reason might be that there were other vehicles behind you.
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I think FT's right. Turning right at a roundabout is one of the scariest things you have to do on a bike, so if this cyclist was merely giving himself an opportunity to do it in a bit of clear space - before he was restricted what he might have thought was a whole crocodile of cars coming up behind him - I'd have thought that was entirely reasonable and held back to let him complete the manoeuvre in safety.
To look at it another way, the HC cautions against overtaking on the approach to a hazard, which is what passing him before the roundabout would have amounted to.
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Yes, I see what you're both saying. Still, it took him about 20 seconds to get to the roundabout after moving in front of me, and there was no traffic behind me. Don't think this particular cyclist needed to do it. I had plenty of time to get past him and get on my way (straight ahead at the roundabout, no traffic coming from the right, which I could see whilst being stuck behind the bike).
I did, of course, hang back and let him get on with it once he'd made his move.
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I ride to the middle of the road before turning right (although I don't hang around on my bike) as it simply prevents people still trying to pass me despite having my arm out at right angles and having a hi-vis vest on.
Too many times I've had cars race past because they don't want to lose 2.3 seconds on their commute to work. I consider myself to be an assertive rider. I have to be otherwise all and sundry would try to squeeze past, cut me up, pull out in front of me or block me in when trying to pass a parked car.
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Was he inconsiderate? Quite possibly. Was he just unaware of the consequences of his action? Also quite possibly. There are many inconsiderate cyclists just as there are car drivers/lorry drivers/bus drivers/pedestrians etc.
20 seconds of your life robbed, but you seem to be surviving :o)
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Yes indeed. I was merely concurring with the spirit of the thread title really, that particular cyclist's actions could have had serious consequences if he'd come up against someone more aggressive than me. Just struck me as a tale striking a chord with the sentiment that some cyclists seem to have a death wish.
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I was following one today about 100 yards from a roundabout. As he heard my car approach behind he glanced over his shoulder then swung out to the crown of the road to stop me passing.
Cyclists are taught nowadays that the safest position in relation to following traffic is in the middle of the lane in the belief that no-one will run them over. It is called the primary position. The "book" recommends this position before many manoeuvres. Even before turning left. It sounds like this cyclist took the primary a bit early but it's no big deal. We all make mistakes.
If 100 yds was too early, what would your preferred distance be ?
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I dunno, I suppose it depends on the road and the traffic. I just felt 100 yards (roughly) was too much in this particular case.
Like you say, no biggie I suppose.
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Looking again at your OP L'escargot got me wondering. If you're in a car about to pass a parked vehicle and a cyclist is in front surely you would assume he was going to continue past it just like you would in your car. Common sense dictates you take the avoiding action by slowing down or driving past both biker and parked car leaving sufficient room. You can't expect a cyclist to look round every time they pass parked vehicles. I bet you don't indicate every time you pass a parked car and why should we cyclists stop and give priority over cars BEHIND them?
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........... why should we cyclists stop and give priority over cars BEHIND them?
You do what you like. I used to do it purely for my own safety, and for no other reason at all.
Edited by L'escargot on 29/01/2010 at 15:25
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It's called positioning, don't you mirror, signal, manoeuvre, to the right lane or crown of the road to turn right in your car? Or do you just block the drivers behind when you are waiting to turn right?
Edited by Old Navy on 29/01/2010 at 15:49
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It's called positioning don't you mirror signal manoeuvre to the right lane or crown of the road to turn right in your car?
Most people don't seem to do these days, ON... and they also turn sharp right before turning left as well...
Edited by b308 on 29/01/2010 at 15:51
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Yes, a Mini did it in front of me this morning, he was in the left lane indicating left, and swung wide half into the right lane to turn left. I was in the right lane as I was turning right a few yards further on, good job I make a point of never driving alongside an HGV, or alongside a car if possible.
Edited by Old Navy on 29/01/2010 at 16:00
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I've long thought some cyclists must be absolute looney tunes...quite why anyone would want to ride along in lane 1 of a 3 laned dual carriageway defeats me...it's so dangerous.
then there's 'A' roads like the A82 from Fort William to Inverness...i've seen whole families on that one.......who on earth would want to be cycling when a lorry meets a coach on a dodgy bend on a road like that?
I know some people come from the angle of you have a right to do it...I come from the angle of how safe is it?
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I agree Westpig, personal risk assesment seems to be beyond many road users.
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Some ten years ago whilst driving at night my sister knocked a cyclist off his bike. She didn't see him.He had no lights and was dressed in black head to foot.Fortunately no one was seriously hurt. About a month later whilst driving away from my sisters house on a dark wet winters morning at 6am ,I pulled out of a junction nearly colliding with a cyclist. He swerved, fell off his bike and landed in a heap on the road.I didn't see him at all.I got out of my car to see that he was ok. When he stood up, I could just make out in the dark that he had no lights on his bike and he was wearing dark jeans and a DPM army camouflage jacket with the hood up. I told him what I thought of his stupidity and he promptly jumped on his bike and dissappeared into the dark.
My sister and I have always wondered if it was the same bloke.
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Last week off the Hogs Back and down in to Guildford. Line of 4 cards stopped in front, the lead car was obviously even to me 5 cars back turning in to the Farnham Road Hospital. Lycra clad loony comes wanging down the hill undertakes the cars who I have to assume he thought were just stationary. BANG. Hits lead car passenger side as it turned. As I drove past he wasn't getting up.
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try turning right off a busy dual carriageway with a tractor even with 2 amber beacons.
sometimes have to get in the fast lane 500yds before turnoff due to density of traffic.
unfortunately not always possible to avoid busy times. maybe your cyclist was doing the same although you say the road wasn't busy. jag.
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Surely the safest way for a cyclist to do it would be to go up to the junction, get off and walk across pushing the bike as a pedestrian if the junction was that dangerous?!
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I suspect my cycling proficiency training in 1969 instilled the same technique as that practiced by the OP. However, since then the thinking has moved on. Cyclists now are trained to "take their road" and behave/position more like a motor vehicle. The idea is that you keep in drivers line of sight rather than out of it and out of their minds. A "life saver" over the right shoulder is still reccomended but not the signal/stop/wait stuff.
Primary position feels a bit counter intuitive at first but having ocasionally hugged the kerb with a bike in "limp mode" I know where the near misses really occur.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 30/01/2010 at 00:01
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A "life saver" over the right shoulder is still reccomended ........
I think it's essential, especially if the cyclist has sideways-vision-restricting headgear/clothing or they have earphones plugged into their ears. I still say I can't remember the last time I saw a cyclist do it, and that they must have scant regard for their life.
Edited by L'escargot on 30/01/2010 at 06:51
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As with many threads like this, there is a lot of stereotyping and generalising.
When I cycle to work, I have to navigate many parked cars, many traffic lights, loads of bad driving. Being the fairweather cyclist I am, I haven't done this for a couple of months but looking to start soon.
My concern though, driving around Glasgow, is the vast number of potholes.
There has been a lot of tv advertising about safety of motorcyclists and many of these also apply to cyclists, especially for other drivers to be aware of them.
I will cycle along London Road in Glasgow which is two lanes each way, but 30 mph limit. Traffic Lights every 500 yards or so. I will cycle the inside lane, trying to look ahead and be prepared for potholes or other obstructions like debris on road. But the cars will still insist on passing me 2 abreast, just squeezing past and no more. There is very little awareness of bikes, understanding they might need to change position due to potholes etc.
But the ironic thing is the next set of lights will be red so they will barge past and then I will catch them at the next lights. If they don't deliberately move over to the kerb edge (as many do), I will pass them (slowly and carefully) on the inside and then when lights turn green, we go through the whole thing again! Can sometimes be entertaining!
Its like when I am driving on the M8 in rush hour. In stop/start traffic, I prefer to let the traffic in front of me get a few yards away, before setting off and driving slower than them so that I can avoid the slamming on the brakes 5 yards later. Meanwhile there will be other drivers that race forward as soon as traffic starts moving and then slam brakes on a few seconds later!
I think its fair to say in rush hour traffic, many drivers, cyclists etc will dopt a different style to what they would do on a lazy Sunday afternoon when time is not the issue.
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Driving home at dusk yesterday there was a young lad riding along the cycle lane of a busy main road-against the flow of traffic!No lights on,the bike or in his head.
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There is very little awareness of bikes understanding they might need to change position due to potholes etc.
Bobby,
I'd agree that many road users could benefit from some more forward planning and up their game with their awareness...but...the most vulnerable road user on any given stretch (which can quite often be a cyclist)...needs to do so as well....and just because there's a pothole, that shouldn't mean an automatic manoeuvre without considering what everyone else is doing and whether other road users are aware of that happening.
Otherwise there's going to be grief.
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I think I meant to say the "life saver" is essential. As when driving I try and maintain a picture of what's around all the time.
Never ever bike with earphones but the capacity to restrict peripheral vision is one reason I won't wear a helmet.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 30/01/2010 at 09:55
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Nor me Bromptonaut. When riding on the road I find it prudent to mainly just assume the other road users including drivers, pedestrians and other cyclists are all stupid, blind, deaf or psychopaths. I take more or less the same view when driving to be fair.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 30/01/2010 at 10:27
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Brompton, what kind of helmet have you tried that you think it will affect your peripheral vision??
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Primary position feels a bit counter intuitive at first but having ocasionally hugged the kerb with a bike in "limp mode" I know where the near misses really occur.
It was standard cycling advice when I cycled in London in about 1980. If you ride meekly in the gutter you will get cut up by everybody. Occupy the middle of the lane, and then it forces motorists to notice you, and make a definite decision to move over into another lane to pass, or not.
One position you definitely don't want to be in is forced to stop at a roundabout in between lanes 1 and 2. If you are turning right, get over into lane 2 well in advance.
As for passing a parked car, the same applies. Signal and pull out early. Occupy the space in the lane that is passing the obstruction, don't risk getting squeezed out by leaving it late.
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As for passing a parked car the same applies. Signal and pull out early. Occupy the space in the lane that is passing the obstruction don't risk getting squeezed out by leaving it late.
What about if it's a narrow single carriageway road in an urban area and you've got a double-decker bus or an artic thundering up behind you? Discretion is the better part of valour!
Falstaff: 'The better part of valour is discretion; in the which better part I have saved my life.'
Edited by L'escargot on 30/01/2010 at 15:20
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"I suspect my cycling proficiency training in 1969 instilled the same technique as that practised by the OP. However, since then the thinking has moved on."
I wouldn't call that 'thinking'. My cycling proficiency, in about 1960, was the same as yours and backs up L'Escargot. With more traffic about the need for this is more, not less. And in really heavy traffic a cyclist would be safer to do what b308 suggests.
I'm not in the least anti-cyclist but surely because in the nature of things they are particularly vulnerable, they need to take every precaution they can. That must be more important than who is right and who is wrong.
Remember the story of Albert J,
Who always fought for his right of way.
He was right - dead right - as he rode along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
An old one that - and you can read 'walked' for 'rode' to apply to pedestrians.
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Having also noticed this quite a lot, I do tend to partly agree with L'Escargot's point.
However, since you're supposed to give a cyclist the same space as a car for overtaking, it would be entirely your fault if you hit them. Partly because you didn't allow sufficient room for the overtake, and partly because you should have seen the cyclist, the parked car, and put 2+2 together.
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I haven't been on a bike for years. As a car driver I get to see a lot of them though.
I agree with those who say that when passing a parked car, cyclists should signal and get out early. Any vehicle is easier to cope with when its intentions are clear.
That said, however, there are cyclists who occupy a whole lane, often at a very slow speed, unnecessarily. Cycle lanes are often too narrow for safety but they do suggest to the cyclist that he is a narrow vehicle and should slip along independently of the other traffic. And he must know really that car and van drivers can see him and don't want to run over him.
If cyclists ignore these facts they are in danger of being self-important and obstructive. What's the point of a bike after all if the rider won't take advantage of its slimness?
Nothing more alarming than a stoned or daffy cyclist who never looks behind and swerves out suddenly to pass something near the kerb. Sometimes you are expecting it and hanging back or driving very wide, but sometimes circumstances conspire to cause a bottleneck. Unwary cyclists are at risk then without anyone else being careless or callous.
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I think Lud, you'll have noticed that there are many more cars occupying a whole lane, and aren't moving at all. As for cycle lanes, they are simply municipal scrawl. No useful function, but give non-cycling car drivers the impression that they have to be used.
Edited by nortones2 on 30/01/2010 at 20:12
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many more cars occupying a whole lane, and aren't moving at all.
Indeed nortones. In town cyclists often have the advantage. There are some really fast cyclists in this town who beat the traffic even on roads where people are doing 30, or nearly.
I hope you noticed my own comment on cycle lanes (or many of them anyway). A cyclist won't fit into the ones outside my house here. But they do state to cyclists and car drivers that cars are supposed to drive outside the cyclists, and cyclists are encouraged to ride approximately over the cycle lane.
The existence of the lane says there is room for bicycles and cars, and that at least is true, provided people are aware and make their intentions clear. A lot of cyclists are nearly as bad as a lot of motorists in these respects.
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"A lot of cyclists are nearly as bad as a lot of motorists in these respects." Couldn't agree more. Many examples, including one really bad cyclist, out of control virtually, in the very centre of our small town. Downhill, overtakes a car which is slowing for a pedestrian crossing. Cyclist continues regardless, just missing walker, then cuts up a driver who has priority on the next junction (mini-roundabout). Along with the trailer trash (caravan site crime hot-spot just outside the town) and the Ribbleton yobs, its like the wild west:) If police had any intention of curbing the drunks, boy racers and pugilists, they'd make their presence felt, outside the station, at the right times. But it all seems to be reactive policing rather than targeted. They say the crime rates are low: that might be true, but its not for the want of trying by the insurgents from Preston:)
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#Avant
I wouldn't call that 'thinking'. My cycling proficiency in about 1960 was the same as yours and backs up L'Escargot. With more traffic about the need for this is more not less. And in really heavy traffic a cyclist would be safer to do what b308 suggests. I'm not in the least anti-cyclist but surely because in the nature of things they are particularly vulnerable they need to take every precaution they can. That must be more important than who is right and who is wrong.
Had cause to think about this again today. Arrived at major road junction and (a) wrong geared myself (b) decided to pass left of road excavation in a gap far to narrow for a car. No sooner had I taken a kerbside line then there was a silver Vectra 30cm out from my right knee. If I'd occupied my lane as I normally do he'd never even have considered that manoeuvre.
It's not directly about right or wrong but about how you claim or assert the rights you have. If there's a bus or lorry bearing down at speed then (IMO) I've failed to see them and postion myself to influence their behaviour soon enough. Obviously there are occasions where tucking in and waiting are the better part of valour but they should be few and far between.
All of this is in Central London and well inside the CC zone - tbh I find the urban traffic in Northampton more intimidating than "in the smoke"
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