36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

The background, coming back from seeing elderly in-laws in Bedford. Empty road at half ten at night. Speed limit is 30mph. The technology in the car is set for a visual and audio warning of speed excesses. 36mph should and does triggers these. It was quiet enough to hear the warning and distractions, such as lights, for the visual warning. Subjective I appreciate but my wife and I are convinced we were within the speed limit. So, what should we do? Who's technology is right? My friendly solicitor says to suck it up and ask for a speed awareness course, which I know is sensible and pragmatic. But the sense of injustice we feel makes me wonder what other courses of action could I explore?

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Chris M

"But the sense of injustice we feel makes me wonder what other courses of action could I explore?"

Reduce the speed limit warning threshold perhaps?

36 in 30 is exceeding the limit. Perhaps set the threshold at 33mph.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - RT

"But the sense of injustice we feel makes me wonder what other courses of action could I explore?"

Reduce the speed limit warning threshold perhaps?

36 in 30 is exceeding the limit. Perhaps set the threshold at 33mph.

The warnings have been set wrongly if the OP is relying on them to avoid prosecution - the APCO/NPCC guideline is that limit +10% + 1mph isn't prosecuted but limit + 10% +2 mph is prosecuted - so the OP needs to set the warning for 34 mph because 35 or 36 is too high.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

Apologies, I clearly didn't make myself clear. The warnings are triggered as soon as the relevant speed limit is passed. So 30 in a 30 zone, 40 in a 40, etc

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - FiestaOwner

The background, coming back from seeing elderly in-laws in Bedford. Empty road at half ten at night. Speed limit is 30mph. The technology in the car is set for a visual and audio warning of speed excesses. 36mph should and does triggers these. It was quiet enough to hear the warning and distractions, such as lights, for the visual warning. Subjective I appreciate but my wife and I are convinced we were within the speed limit. So, what should we do? Who's technology is right? My friendly solicitor says to suck it up and ask for a speed awareness course, which I know is sensible and pragmatic. But the sense of injustice we feel makes me wonder what other courses of action could I explore?

Did the Police stop you at the time of the alleged offence, or was it from a camera, and you received a ticket through the post?

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - RT

None of the equipment in any normal car is calibrated accurately enough to be used in court - you'd have to show that the equipment used by the police was faulty - so in practice, no chance and the penalty likely to be higher if you challenge it.

Accept the speed awareness course if offered and also learn that your car technology isn't perfect.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - bathtub tom

Turvey?

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - focussed

Turvey? Used to go fishing there in the mill pool !!

Yardley Hastings? On the way to Brafield stock car stadium, sorry -

Northampton International Raceway as it now insists on being called !!

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

I know that you are right. And that's the key point, we can rely all we want on in car technology but where the two disagree it is disheartening to accept that the traffic enforcement technology will trump all. I fully accept it is the child in me that is yelling "but it's not fair"...

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - FP

"... we can rely all we want on in car technology but where the two disagree it is disheartening to accept that the traffic enforcement technology will trump all."

Maybe you should consider what would be the result of traffic enforcement technology NOT trumping all. Endless excuses from drivers claiming they were only "slightly" over the limit, or that they were misled by the technology in their car, or that the road was empty so their excess speed didn't "really" matter, or that leniency should be shown for whatever reason.

However desirable it might be for the circumstances of every motoring offence, no matter how trivial, to be carefully considered by real people we all know it's not practicable and won't happen.

Time to come to terms with the reality of modern life and to keep in-car technology where it belongs - an aid and nothing more.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

It was cameras. Had there been an interaction with a real policeman/woman I am sure there would have leniency shown. We literally were the only car on that road and, ironically, we were passing the police county headquarters. Oh, I should mention the certificate of conformity for the camera expired some ten days after we went through it.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - daveyjp

In order to work the speed warning system needs a fundamental piece of data, the speed of the road you are on.

Some systems have sign detection, signs can be missed, some take it from satnav data. The problem arises where the fundamental data is wrong, usually when speed limit is changed and the speed database isn't updated.

My satnav says my nearest main road is a 40, it hasn't been that for about 6 years, yet the database is supposedly up to date.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Andrew-T

Simplistically, I would assume that your system had not detected that you were in a 30 zone ? So you had to. That is a problem with advanced tech - it is easy to adapt one's behaviour on the assumption that it always works ....

Edited by Andrew-T on 16/03/2024 at 10:37

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - skidpan

Sorry, but you have no defence. They are "driver aids" (the clue is in the word aids), the driver still needs to be observing signs and doing as they say.

Simple question, if you are not observing speed signs and your speedo what else are you not observing?

I honestly think that if you try to defend yourself by blaming the car and its systems for the offence you will possibly be charged with "driving without due care and attention".

Edited by skidpan on 16/03/2024 at 11:07

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Brit_in_Germany

If the car's system works by using a camera, it may be that the speed limit sign was not visible and therefore the fine is not enforceable (unless there was road-lighting).

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Middleman

If the car's system works by using a camera, it may be that the speed limit sign was not visible and therefore the fine is not enforceable (unless there was road-lighting).

Oh if only it were that simple! So you rock up at court, say that the camera used by your driver’s aid did not capture the “30” sign, so it could not have been visible, therefore you could not have seen it so the limit is unenforceable. Case dismissed. Job done (or possibly not).

Back in the real world, the measuring equipment used by the police is deemed to be reliable provided it is an approved device and was operated in the correct manner. The police will undoubtedly be able to prove that. The burden then shifts to the defendant to cast doubt on that reliability. All you have is that your unapproved and uncalibrated driver’s aid did not warn you that you were exceeding the speed limit. Put yourself in the position of the Magistrates: which version of events would you prefer?

Had there been an interaction with a real policeman/woman I am sure there would have leniency shown.

I fear you may have been disappointed. The “leniency” shown is the police do not usually enforce a speed limit until a speed of (Limit + 10% + 2mph) is reached. There is no justification to provide leniency over and above that

You should be offered a course for that speed (which is further leniency as the police have every right to prosecute you through the courts).

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Brit_in_Germany

I wasn't intending to suggest that the lack of a warning could be used as evidence but rather it would be worth checking the signage.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Palcouk

If there were lamposts the speed limit is 30mph unless there are signs to the contary.

You cannot rely on in Car Tech. Speaking to a solicitor will only cost you money, unless they happened to be a friend.

You cannot argue with automatic cameras, except on very rare occssions, In the notification letter reply confirming you were the driver. If you have no prior the Police will likely recommend a speed awareness course. You cannot request this.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Falkirk Bairn

Setting the speed warning to 30mph in a 30 limit is probably a better idea than setting it to 36.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Adampr

I'm a bit bewildered. Have you not got a speedometer?

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Terry W

Sat nav cannot be relied upon - it needs software updates incorporated by the sat nav provider, user latest updates downloaded, and that all road signs are recognised despite possibly being dirty or obscured.

In short the car manufacturer and sat nav provider will deny any responsibility.

You alone are responsible for the speed the car is travelling, Many of us have fallen foul of cameras etc and paid the price for inattention or bad luck. You may feel bitter but you have a very limited chance of overturning the fine - put it behind you and move on.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

Apologies, again I've clearly not explained it well enough. We were travelling at what we believed was 30mph. But it is a dial type speedometer and not a digital one so I freely admit it is more open to a reading error. However, the warnings, neither visual or audible, were triggered. That's why I mentioned how this appears to be the two technologies not agreeing. And yes, I appreciate that the enforcement technology out ranks the in-car aids. But, as I mentioned, that doesn't help the inner child whingeing! Moving on, a number of contributors to the discussion raised some very interesting points. May I add to these and ask, the logical progression of the in-car driving aids are what will probably enable autonomous or semi autonomous driving, what happens when the two technologies disagree and the driver is essentially an alert passenger?

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - skidpan

Apologies, again I've clearly not explained it well enough. We were travelling at what we believed was 30mph. But it is a dial type speedometer and not a digital one so I freely admit it is more open to a reading error.

All speedos over-read no exceptions regardless of type. Normally about 2 or 3 mph at 30. To be doing 36 the speedo would be reading 38 min.

Clearly you were not paying full attention.

Just accept and be careful in th future.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - galileo

Apologies, again I've clearly not explained it well enough. We were travelling at what we believed was 30mph. But it is a dial type speedometer and not a digital one so I freely admit it is more open to a reading error.

All speedos over-read no exceptions regardless of type. Normally about 2 or 3 mph at 30. To be doing 36 the speedo would be reading 38 min.

Clearly you were not paying full attention.

Just accept and be careful in th future.

A friend was caught by a camera van clocking him at well over 40 in a 30 limit.

This is classed as a category B offence, which can mean 4 points and a week's income fine .

He was offered £100 fixed penalty fine and 3 points and grabbed that thankfully.

36 mph will most likely mean an awareness course, no points and maybe less than £100 fee.

The electronic warning gadgets are just another 'nanny state' invention which tends to diminish driver concentration and skill.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Andrew-T

<< ... However, the warnings, neither visual or audible, were triggered. That's why I mentioned how this appears to be the two technologies not agreeing. ... >>

Your reply seems not to have considered why your car (with its gadgets) appeared to be unaware of the 30 limit it was in. How does it know - is it detecting road signs or relying on GPS info ?

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Adampr

Assuming you get offered a speed awareness course, pay up and get it done. They're not much fun, but I suppose it helps to have refresher every now and then.

If you're convinced your speedo was showing 30 and.you got clocked at 36, it might be worth taking your car to a garage and asking them to check it. The alternative would appear to be a series of speeding tickets in the future.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Falkirk Bairn

OP said he was doing 36mph on the speedo

Thought # 1

If the OP's speed was relying Sat/Nav speed indicator it is highly accurate going along a flat road. If, on the other hand, he was going downhill the SatNav would show a lower speed than he was actually doing.

Think of a right angled triangle the hypotenuse (downhill route) is longer than the horizontal but the Sat Nav sees the 2 sides are equal.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - bathtub tom

It'd have to be a damn steep hill to have that level of discepancy. Do the maths!

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - skidpan

It'd have to be a damn steep hill to have that level of discepancy. Do the maths!

Indeed it would. A quick tap at the Casio says that on a 1 in 10 the gradient would make your speed 30.14 mph. On a 1 in 6 your speed would be 30.41 mph. Even on a 1 in 3 (not many of those in the UK) your speed would still be only 31.62 mph.

Now if it was a 1 in 1.5 you might stand a chance, your speed could then be 36.06 mph. But that would be like riding down a roof.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Adampr

OP said he was doing 36mph on the speedo

OP said he thought he was doing 30 and was relying on the Speedo.

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Terry W

May I add to these and ask, the logical progression of the in-car driving aids are what will probably enable autonomous or semi autonomous driving, what happens when the two technologies disagree and the driver is essentially an alert passenger?

An interesting point needing resolution before completely autonomous vehicles become legal.

Personal view - if control is wholly autonomous, and the occupants all passengers, with no need to be alert and no role in driving, then others will need to take responsibility - eg:

  • the EV manufacturer who needs to ensure it performs with legal requirements
  • suppliers, possibly software and sensors) to the manufacturer
  • the camera supplier - manufacturer or component supplier
  • the installation company - environment - trees, dirty signs, power supplies, etc
  • the owner who has failed to have their vehicle properly serviced and calibrated

Possibly no prosecutions will be brought for speeding - culpability for an offence will be determined in court by an analysis of the circumstances or a regulator (as OFCOM, OFGEN etc).

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

Just to circle back on this. I was indeed offered a course, which I will take. The car's speedometer was checked and comfortably within tolerance (over reading by 2mph at 70). And, most importantly, my wife was visiting her mother and took her shopping. Since she was close to the spot she showed her where I was caught speeding. And Sod's law, she is now waiting to see if she will join me on a course!

36mph in a 30mph zone but no warnings in the car - Ex Alfa mail

Just to circle back on this. I was indeed offered a course, which I will take. The car's speedometer was checked and comfortably within tolerance (over reading by 2mph at 70). And, most importantly, my wife was visiting her mother and took her shopping. Since she was close to the spot she showed her where I was caught speeding. And Sod's law, she is now waiting to see if she will join me on a course!