Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Rincewindwiz

I am a 76 old man with 6 points on his licence

I am charged with speeding and with failure to give information regarding the driver berween 16/5 and 12/6.

I was away for a week or so in early june and when I returned I did not see the Request for information among accumulation of mail for several days as I worked my way though it. When I finally found it I scanned it intending to fill it in electronically - I have poor writing! - and while hunting noticed my phone battery was dead. So I changed the battery (LGV20 has a replaceable battery) and is so doing must have licked the battery as it caught fire - scary since it woudlnt go it took a while to find womething to lift it up and thrown it out of the window - and took the thought of the request for information out of my mind

it took a few days to sort out the mess (new carpet etc) and then I started in on the mail, discovered the request for information, filled it in and sent it off

So I was surprised when, on or about 3/11 I received this Proecdural Notice (dated 27/10) charging me with Failure to provide information.

I am concerned that I may be disqualified from driving as this will make life very difficult and my part time job may be forfeit

I am told I may be able to persuade the police to drop failing to inform if I plead guilty to speeding but I am not sure how to go aobut this. \and \i am hesitante to use a solicitor because the last time I tried that (many years ago) they were expensive and worse than useless.

Any suggestions or names of reliable solicitors?

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Palcouk

If you receive a notice, you simply reply stating that you were away from the address when received and that you replied when practicable on "date" giving the info requested.

Any high street solicitor is as good as or not as the next one

Edited by Palcouk on 08/11/2022 at 16:29

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Middleman

I am told I may be able to persuade the police to drop failing to inform if I plead guilty to speeding but I am not sure how to go aobut this.

Yes, you should be able to do this providing you were the driver at the time and everything else is straightforward. You do not need a solicitor.

First of all, have a look at your court papers. You should have a “Single Justice Procedure Notice” (SJPN). That will set out the charge(s) you face. With any luck you should have been charged with both the “Failure to Provide” (FtP) offence and speeding. If that is so, it should be fairly straightforward.

You must respond to the SJPN within the time allowed and you have three choices of response:

1. You can plead guilty and allow the case to be dealt with by under the Single Justice Procedure.

2. You can plead guilty and ask for a personal hearing in the normal Magistrates’ Court.

3.You can plead Not Guilty.

Obviously option 3 is out. The procedure you need to adopt is to ask the prosecutor to kindly drop the FtP charge on the understanding that you will plead guilty to the speeding offence. This a tried and tested practice that takes place in courts up and down the land every day. All court users (Prosecutors, the Magistrates and their Legal Advisors) are familiar with it. It is successful almost without fail, provided everything is straightforward.

It used to be necessary to attend court and speak to the prosecutor in person to do this (which meant you would need to go for option 2 as you cannot attend a Single Justice hearing). However, during the pandemic, most courts allowed defendants to make this “deal” under the SJ procedure. The Magistrates’ Legal Advisors had an agreement with the local police prosecutors allowing them to do this. In many areas this has persisted and has become “business as usual”. So my recommendation would be to return your SJPN, selecting option 1. You should plead Not Guilty to both charges but make it clear in your response that you will plead guilty to speeding if, and only if, the FtP charge is dropped.

If the court will not accept this they should let you know. The main purpose of entering not guilty pleas to both offences is that you cannot be convicted unless you are given the opportunity to attend court to defend the charges. As well as that, facing a ban if you get six points for FtP is actually to your advantage. A SJ will not ban you in your absence and if that route is chosen your case will be put over for a hearing in the normal Magistrates’ Court. You will then be given the opportunity to attend, when you can suggest the deal in person.

Have a look at your paperwork and see what it says. This “deal” is normally only available for those who are charged with both offences. There is a way it might be undertaken if you are only charged with FtP, but it is more complex and does not always succeed.

The above answer is OK as far as it goes. However, I have a suspicion that your reply was not received at all. It is unusual for the police to prosecute the offence when the deadline has been missed by a short period. The speeding offence must have been committed a few days before 16th May and the FtP offence was not committed until 28 days after the request for driver's details was served on you (so, on 12th June according to your court paperwork). By your timeline, you were away for a week or so in early June and delayed your response by a few days after your return because of the fire problem. Even if you had not responded until early July, I doubt the police would have taken action for FtP but simply processed the speeding charge.

Edited by Middleman on 08/11/2022 at 16:53

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Rincewindwiz

Thank you for all of this most helpful

1. SPJN includes both offences;
2 Speeding dated 09/05; Fail to provide info dated 13/6
3. Elsewhere in the documentation it says "review of records 7/7 showed no information provided" - and I reckon thats about when I returned the form with driver info

I did get a proof of posting but it was 4 months agoi and finding it may be hard:-(

I tried Herts Police and after several minutes of messages and press x for y I got "Due to unforseen circumstances we are unable to take your call". Click. I presume its best to try to speak to them before returning the form?

Where do I write the bit about plead guilty to speeding if drop failing to provide?
In a covering letter?
In mitigation?
In Information for the court - I am pleading not guilty because?

Thanks again for your comprehensive reply

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Middleman

1. SPJN includes both offences;

Good. That makes life much easier.

There is no point if contacting the police. Once court action has begun they will play no further part.

In Information for the court - I am pleading not guilty because?

Yes, that's as good a place as any. You must make sure you plead not guilty to both charges. . Simply explain that you made your response to the request for driver's details but it could not have been received. No need to go into the details about sending it late etc. Then go on to say that you are willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence only on the condition the FtP charge is dropped. Providing they are satisfied that no attempt to avoid justice is being made the police normally have no interest in prosecuting a driver for what is essentially an administrative offence and they are usually quite happy to simply proceed with the underlying offence. You cannot be convicted of speeding as it stands because they have no evidence that you were driving and that is your "leverage" to request the deal.

If you were very cheeky you could also ask to be sentenced at the equivalent to a Fixed Penalty (£100 and 3 points) assuming your speed was low enough (let me know what it was and I'll tell you if a FP would have been offered). Magistrates have guidance which suggests they should do this in certain circumstances:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."

The SJ may or may not agree to this but if you don't ask you won't get! If not you will be sentenced in accordance with the normal sentencing guidelines.

Keep a copy of what you send in case of any problems and get a free certificate of posting from the Post Office.

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Rincewindwiz

There is no point cointacting the police

I was trying to speak to the local Traffic Prosecution Team (= local police prosecutors?) on the grounds they could 'do the deal' Is this unwise/waste of time?

If you were very cheeky you could also ask to be sentenced at the equivalent to a Fixed Penalty (£100 and 3 points)

No reason not to ask. Offence was 36 in 30

Edited by Rincewindwiz on 10/11/2022 at 16:32

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Middleman

I was trying to speak to the local Traffic Prosecution Team

No harm in trying, but usually you would not be able to speak to anybody with the authority to do the deal.

Offence was 36 in 30.

That would qualify for a fixed penalty. So it would not be too cheeky to ask to be sentenced at the FP equivalent.

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Rincewindwiz

It seems I have also had a letter from the Camera, Tickets and Collision Unit dated 13 July stating that they have received my NIP confirming that I was the driver at the time.

Does this affect the deal I am trying to strike as I have admitted the speeding offence - or is that admission no longer valid due to failing to fill in the form in time

Edited by Rincewindwiz on 12/11/2022 at 07:20

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Middleman

Does this affect the deal I am trying to strike as I have admitted the speeding offence..

No. It makes it all the more important that you do it.

In theory the police could prosecute you successfully for the FtP offence because you did not respond within the 28 days allowed (6 points) and for the speeding offence because they now have evidence that you were driving (3 points).

In practice it would be extremely unusual, especially when you had the problems with the fire, etc. and you replied as soon as you realised you had overlooked the matter. I have been following matters like this for many years and I have only heard of one case where the deal was turned down by the prosecutor. In that case the driver was (I'll be kind and say) "less than polite" to the prosecutor, demanding this and that, and telling the prosecutor what he could and couldn't do. So the prosecutor showed him.

What I am surprised at is that the police took court action recently for FtP seemingly without checking that you had responded to the request (albeit late). It is unusual for them to prosecute for failing to respond in time as long as they are convinced that the driver is not attempting to engineer a "timeout" for the speeding offence. With your response in July they still had four months to prosecute you for speeding.

But no matter, you are where you are and doing the deal is the best way forward. The alternative is to defend the FtP charge on the basis that you responded "as soon as reasonably practicable." This is fraught with danger on two counts:

1. It is by no means certain to succeed. The court may find that you had ample time to respond even bearing in mind the fire problems.

2. Even if you were acquitted of that offence, the police now have evidence that you were driving and you would be convicted of speeding anyway. The fact that your response was late does not make it inadmissable to support a speeding charge.

The deal is definitely the best way to go.

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Rincewindwiz

Hi Middleman

Have attempted to send you sample text (Pleas and letters) via the moderators (as there seems to be no Private/Direct message facilty.

Comments appreciated or contact me directly Rincewindwiz AT Google Mail DOT Com

Edited by Rincewindwiz on 13/11/2022 at 18:17

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Xileno

I've forwarded your email on to Middleman.

I didn't see it initially, it went into Spam.

Mod

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Middleman

Reply made via Mod.

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Rincewindwiz

Jackpot

3 points and £100 (rare that this is described as a jackpot :-) )

Thanks for all your help

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Xileno

That's good news - and just before Christmas as well.

Thanks for coming back to update us. Many don't and it's frustrating particularly to those who have contributed.

Skoda Octavia - Failing to Give Information about the driver - Middleman

Great News!

I never had any doubts, but kept to the Fixed Penalty level as well ! Double Bubble ??.

Thanks for letting us know.

Middleman