Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - El-Sunshino

Hi, I was wondering if i could please get some advice on my current situation i find my self in and where i stand. Back in May last year i received a reminder NIP from the metropolitan police for a using a mobile phone while driving. It seems i did not receive the original letter dated in June 2022. The reminder was sent on July 17th. I emailed them requesting evidence as i could not recall my self driving on that day. They sent me a video clip some weeks later of a cyclist filming my wife while she has the phone on her lap in stationary traffic. She had been touching the screen so she was using it. On the 25th July 2022 they sent me a video clip which the cyclist had provided to them. I made 2 visits to my local post office to send the form back and add my wife's details but on both occasions post office was closed for that whole week. On the 8th September i decided to send an email to the original correspondence giving them my wife's full details as the driver. I received a response saying that they would not accept this in an email and i must send in the form by post. i replied back asking them to send me a return addressed envelope which they refused. During this time my wife was ill and i just let it slip by and forgot and heard nothing more. Fast forward to Jan 4th this year, (7 and half months after the offence)I received a Single Notice Procedure and have been charged with failing to provide driver information which means 6 points and probably around £1000 fine. The charge sheet states I did not provide the drivers information which i did, All be it it was by email but details were provided. After going through everything and speaking to a few solicitors who want to charge me an arm and a leg I have decided to plead not guilty on the basis that I sent them the information by email. also Iam not to sure what the time limitation would work in my case with regards to the 6 months from date of offence. Either way is there a way i should go about this and what to plead in my defence. Thank you

Edited by El-Sunshino on 10/01/2023 at 13:30

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - Middleman

First of all, the timing of the prosecution against you. The police have six months (twelve, in Scotland) from the date of the alleged offence to begin court proceedings. You have only provided vague dates but you say you received a reminder in May. The date of the original offence is now no longer of any concern, but the later offence of “failing to provide driver’s details” is what’s important. This is committed 28 days after the request was first served on you and it is deemed served 2 working days after posting (despite the fact that you did not receive it). So if you are going to contest the matter on the basis that it is “out of time” you need to find out what the date of that request was. It would be unusual for a prosecution to begin beyond the statutory time limit, but not unheard of, so it’s worth checking. You need to compare that date of the offence with the date on your SJPN. The SJPN should be issued before six months has elapsed from the date of the offence.

Assuming the prosecution was launched in time, I’m afraid you do not seem to have much in the way of a defence. Case law has determined that your response must be in writing. It is used to prosecute the original offence as evidence of who was driving or it used to prosecute people who have been nominated by somebody else (in the way you tried to nominated your wife) to prosecute them if they do not respond. You were given ample opportunity to comply with the request. Had you simply provided it in response to the reminder it is most unlikely you would have seen any action against you. You had no need to use a specific Post Office; in fact you had no need to use one at all but I understand your desire to get proof of posting, in which case other Post Offices were available. Requesting a SAE I’m afraid simply compounded your error.

I believe you will be found guilty if you defend the charge on the basis that you provided the details by e-mail. You may have run a successful defence if you had responded as soon as you found out about the request (and were prosecuted for responding late), but you didn’t.

The guideline fine in the event of conviction is one and a half week’s net income. This would be reduced by a third if you plead guilty. A “Victim Surcharge” would also be imposed. This is 10% of the fine (minimum £34) if the offence was committed before June 22nd 2022, or 40% if it was committed on or after that date. Prosecution costs will also be ordered. These will be £85 if you plead guilty but if you are found guilty following a trial they will begin at £620. The cost of failure following a trial may therefore run into many hundreds of pounds.

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - El-Sunshino

Ok, So my only hope is the timing that the prosecution was brought against me. The dates are below

Date of original offence- 27th May 2022

Date the original Notice of intended prosecution letter- 1st June 2022 ( which i did not receive)

Date of reminder Notice of intended prosecution letter- 14th July 2022 (Copy of original)

Date i replied by email to the reminder after requesting proof- 8th Sept 2022

Date of charge brought against me on Single Justice Procedure - 4th Jan 2023

So the first request was served 28 days after 1st June which is the date on the Notice of intended prosecution which makes it 1st July.

The charge date is 4th January. But the wording on SJP states on 6th July 2022 i failed to give information. So they seem to have got me 2 days before the 6 month time period. Where does 6th July date come from if it should be 28 days after the original notice was served to me.

Edited by El-Sunshino on 10/01/2023 at 18:03

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - Middleman

Date the original Notice of intended prosecution letter- 1st June 2022 ( which i did not receive)

Assuming it was posted on the same day, it was deemed “served” on you on Friday 3rd June. You had 28 days to respond (so until Friday 1st July). The offence (failing to provide driver’s details) was therefore committed on 2nd July. The police must issue a “Written Charge” (which goes to the court) and a “Single Justice Procedure Notice” (which goes to you) by 2nd January.

In your first post you said you received your SJPN on 4th January (last Wednesday). But you now say it was dated then. You need to check this because, as you can see from the dates, the margins are very fine. This is an extremely risky strategy and you must be absolutely sure of your facts. One other potential pitfall is there could be a discrepancy between the date your SJPN was issued and the date the court was formally notified of the prosecution. The legislation says that the prosecution must issue the “Written Charge” and the SJPN at the same time. But there have been cases where this was not complied with. The Written Charge was issued before the SJPN was issued so the prosecution process was begun earlier. I’m not sure how a court would view this. One other thing I’m not certain of (but will look it up) is whether the day you are served with the notice is “Day 1” of the 28 or “Day 0”. I’ll check that out.

One thing you could do before you respond to the SJPN with your plea is to contact the court and ask them when they received the Written Charge and when it was dated.

Were you served with any other evidence which may shed further light on these dates? Were, for example, told when your original request was posted to you? I made the assumption it was posted the day it was issued. But if it was posted later, it will make a difference to the date of the “Fail to Provide” offence. If it was posted a day later (Thursday 2nd June) it would not be deemed served until Monday 6th June (weekends do not count in the two days “presumption of service). This would make the offence date 4th July.

Sorry to muddy the waters but as you can see, this is not straightforward and if you get it wrong it will cost you (very) dearly.

Edited by Middleman on 10/01/2023 at 19:37

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - El-Sunshino

Hi Middleman, I understand where your coming from and i appreciate your advice. But i have all the paperwork in front of me and i have gone over them. I have a copy of the original NIP dated 1st June on the letter.which is a Weds. This still leaves 2 working days which would be Friday 3rd June. If i had 28 days to reply at worst it would than be July 3rd which would be the offence date i did not provide evidence. The original incident happened on the 27th May 2022. Now going back to the SJPN the charge sheet says (Charged brought against me on the 4th Jan 2023) I received the SJPN on my door step following morning 5th Jan 2023. Posting date on the SJPN is dated 4th Jan. Charging date brought against me is 4th Jan. On the notes it says on 6th July 2022 i failed to give information relating to the identification of the driver who was alleged to be guilty of an offence commited on the 27th May 2022. I agree with you the time margins are too tight to call. But i dont want to plead guilty only to find out later that i could have a defence, I am still unsure where they got the 6th July date from. I can call the court tomorrow and find out when they received the written charge but it states clearly on the paper work i was charged on 4th Jan 2023. I was not served with anything apart from the original NIP and a reminder NIP which was a copy. Original letter dated 1st June 2022 Copy sent on the 14th July,

Edited by El-Sunshino on 10/01/2023 at 20:13

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - Middleman

This still leaves 2 working days which would be Friday 3rd June.

Only if it was posted the day it was dated.

I am still unsure where they got the 6th July date from.

If it was posted a day later (Thursday 2nd) it would not be deemed served until Monday 6th. The legislation (Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act) makes the requirement to give information “…within the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice is served…” So, in that case, Monday 6th June would be day 1. Day 28 would be Sunday 3rd July and the offence would have been committed on Monday 4th July. So I, too, am unsure where the 6th comes from.

I can only emphasise that you must be absolutely sure of your ground before you go down this route. You should have been served with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. This would normally consist of statements from the people who sent you the notices confirming the dates they were sent. If you haven’t got them, you need them. You are entitled to them before you enter a plea. The police are the people to ask for these, not the court. But you can get the court to confirm when they were first informed of the prosecution against you.

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - El-Sunshino

They have a signed witness statement from the cyclist signed in Nov 22 who filmed my wife in the car. A copy was included in the SJPN. UPDATE- I rang the SJPN department and they confirmed that the offence that I am being charged for is the 6th July 2022. Information on the SJPN notes state NIP was sent to me on 1st June 2022. The post date on the envelope of the original NIP is dated 6th June 2022. So it should be 28 days to respond from that date of 6th June. Which works out to be 4th July 2022. Post date of the SJPN is actually dated 4th Jan 2023 which is 6 months to the day. When i asked the SJPN what day was i being charged she could not tell me but i am presuming its 4th Jan as stated on the paperwork so it seems they have got me on the last day of the 6 month limitation period.

Edited by El-Sunshino on 11/01/2023 at 21:10

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - lordwoody

"I made 2 visits to my local post office to send the form back and add my wife's details but on both occasions post office was closed for that whole week."

Why not buy stamps in pretty much any shop and put it in a postbox?

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - El-Sunshino
Not every shop sells stamps mate. Plus i needed an envelope. Do you want me to pop in to my local Tesco and ask for a stamp and envelope?? Which i actually did. And guess what their reply was. WE DONT DO STAMPS. Next post office was 2 miles away. I was busy with other things such as work family. So now we are expected to pay for stationary and return postage to accept a fine and points. I might as well just walk up to the Police station and let them bend me over while iam at it. There is no reason you cant reply on line. Like most other things. But thank you for your wonderful contribution to the thread.

Edited by El-Sunshino on 12/01/2023 at 15:20

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - skidpan
Not every shop sells stamps mate. Plus i needed an envelope. Do you want me to pop in to my local Tesco and ask for a stamp and envelope?? Which i actually did. And guess what their reply was. WE DONT DO STAMPS. Next post office was 2 miles away. I was busy with other things such as work family. So now we are expected to pay for stationary and return postage to accept a fine and points. I might as well just walk up to the Police station and let them bend me over while iam at it. There is no reason you cant reply on line. Like most other things. But thank you for your wonderful contribution to the thread.

Even though we are in the digital age we still have an assortment of envelopes at home ready to use and also keep a few stamps as well.

2 miles is hardly excuse is it. Walking there and back would take little more than an hour plus any time you had to wait. Go in a car and it would only take minutes. Surely far better than ending up in your situation.

If this does end up in court I would suggest you do not use that as an excuse.

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - Middleman

There is no reason you cant reply on line

There is. I explained to you in my post on Tuesday at 15:19 why online responses are not acceptable and you have now discovered this to be true, probably to your considerable expense. As harsh as it may seem, part of the responsibilities that go with running a car is that you must respond to notices you receive, at your own expense, in the manner prescribed by law.

If you are convicted of this offence it is my view that it was entirely avoidable. You had adequate opportunity to reply to the request in writing. In fact I believe the police were remarkably patient. You asked for evidence (to which you are not entitled unless the matter goes to court) and did nothing between the end of July when you were unsuccessful in sending your reply from the Post Office, and early September when you sent your e-mail. Even then you were given another opportunity to respond when it was explained to you that e-mail responses would not do, but you didn't take it

I daresay you have reasons for your failure to respond. Alas you now face a conviction which carries an endorsement code (MS90) that insurers absolutely hate and you can look forward to considerably increased premiums for a few years. It was all so unnecessary.

On the bright side, your wife now cannot be prosecuted for the mobile phone offence, but I imagine that is scant reward.

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - alan1302
Not every shop sells stamps mate. Plus i needed an envelope. Do you want me to pop in to my local Tesco and ask for a stamp and envelope?? Which i actually did. And guess what their reply was. WE DONT DO STAMPS. Next post office was 2 miles away. I was busy with other things such as work family. So now we are expected to pay for stationary and return postage to accept a fine and points. I might as well just walk up to the Police station and let them bend me over while iam at it. There is no reason you cant reply on line. Like most other things. But thank you for your wonderful contribution to the thread.

You can buy postage online as well...and make your envelope out of a piece of paper.

Mercedes-Benz CLA - Failing to provide driver information - lordwoody

"So now we are expected to pay for stationary and return postage to accept a fine and points. "

Seems quite reasonable, everyone else does, perhaps you are some entitled special case who feels that the ordinary rules of behaviour don't apply to you? Welcome to the real world, and tell your wife not to use her phone when driving, that's another rule that applies to everyone.