I had thought that some people would be like that. How would you feel about a mechanic turning up/being commissioned by the buyer to scan the car with an OBD tool?

Knowing what a "good standard" OBD tool is capable of, there's no way I'd allow a prospective buyer to do that with my car.

I have the Ross-Tech VCDS for my VW Touareg and realise what havoc would be caused by altering random values.

Not going to happen, how do I know you're not downloading key or immobiliser codes or your device got from an auction site isn't faulty and not going to damage the electronics in my car!?

How do I know you are not going to claim an non-existing fault that you have introduced?

How do i know your mechanic isn't your mate wanting to do the same.

Edited by Zippy123 on 24/06/2020 at 10:41

As one of the " hostile" contributors, I would just add, as a final note ( I don't think I have much more to add beyond that which I've already said) - that there's a very fundamental difference between the two circumstances that have been presented here:

1. An unknown stranger calls with an entirely unknown electronic piece of equipment and connects it to your car - no idea who the person is, no idea what he may or may not do and no comeback if anything goes wrong.

2. The AA or the RAC or some identifiable organization or acknowledged specialist arrives to conduct a professional inspection.

In my book there's a world of difference.

Option 1. isn't going to happen.

Option 2. Bring it on - I'm fine with that. No different to taking my car to a garage (a garage that I know and trust) ... they have electronic stuff there that I don't have intimate knowledge of, but I trust that they do - and if it goes wrong, they'll sort it.

It would be great if this forum had a "poll" functionality. I'd love to see the split. It could be very interesting.

Without a doubt, for those people with little to no knowledge of cars, an OBD scan can reveal a lot of useful information. After reading the codes, they coud then go away and make their mind up/confer with those that know more on forums. If the codes have recently been cleared, well, the seller is a bit of a wheeler dealer, avoid and walk away.

Sorry chaps but welcome to the 21st Century, if the seller had refused I would have walked away. It is the modern equivalent of checking the oil level and kicking the tyres.

Ultimately, this is what it comes down to. It looks like you're fortunate enough to be able to assess the mechanical integrity of the car, but with vehicles becoming more sensor-driven and computerised, why should you forego the right to inspect the electronics of the vehicle before you purchase it?

Ask politely and if they have nothing to hide they should let you, if not, walk away.

In some respects, I agree with the idea that a random guy turning up with an OBD scanner could make the palms sweat. However, refusing a mechanic/technician would just wave a bright red flag, with a flashing beacon on top of it for me. I'd walk away without any regrets.

Avant, as I've said previously, I can certainly accomodate the opinion that somebody with a wrap on their van scanning the car is more palatable than somebody pulling a tool out of a backpack or boot.

If you've read KB's comments and don't think they were initially (and still are) inflammatory/hostile then that's fair enough :).

KB - a regular on here and not in the least hostile - makes the essential point, that there's all the difference in the world between the following:

I had already made this point very early on:

How would you feel about a mechanic turning up/being commissioned by the buyer to scan the car with an OBD tool?

Which KB initially refuted:

Jamie seems reluctant to accept the refusal to allow a stranger to electonically interrogate someone else's car. With or without a "qualified" mechanic in attendance. You've got more chance of flying to the moon, Jamie.

After some people came forward and mentioned the normality of it in a pre-sell check, he then changed his tune.

Ultimately, accommodating a scan may make the seller uncomfortable, but refusing it will likely make the buyer uncomfortable (more so if there are other warning signs). It's a complex equation to solve, in terms of the economics/psychology of the sell. Like you mention, one possible solution is to get a trusted, third party to carry out the scan. As I've said, if a seller still refused this, I'd walk away. What's even more interesting is the polarisation the issue has caused. The language of some of the responses is quite emotional. I'm unsure if that's a hallmark of the forum or testament to how strongly people feel about the issue.

Edited by Jamie3141 on 24/06/2020 at 16:52

Avant, this is true.

programmed to input information

If I could link on this forum I would add more information. OBD ports do allow writing to the CAN bus. Just Google carloop_minimal.cpp. If you are a semi-proficient programmer you can make cars do some very interesting things with Photon. For example, it would be relatively easy to recreate the Tesla's "Wizard's in Winter" dance (minus the doors).

FP, ditto!

I sense a wind up too, but so far it's relatively polite.

Guys, I'd love to tell you that I'm some mastermind troll, but I was genuinely asking a question and was met with---what I perceived to be---hostility and rudeness...

Indeed - that is the interesting thing. Not for a moment do I believe you are a simple guy asking a simple question. More likely you are an intelligent individual with time on your hands who chose a topic to wind up the community here. Once the mostly unfavourable answers started flowing, you took some delight in expending considerable energy and verbosity in picking them apart.

Nope. I'm not a simple guy and I suppose you could say I'm fairly well-educated (multiple degrees, niche profession, etc. (if I can say this without triggering the "you don't need a degree to be intelligent", "the world would operate just fine without your fancy job" crew). I didn't choose a topic to wind the community up though. I've only made two posts which are related to one another. One about specific used cars I'm interested in and another about etiquette when buying a used car. The only other thread I'm associated with was polite and very helpful.

I notice how quick you were to take offence: "Nice way to welcome a new, curious member! :)" (Does the smiley make any difference? It looks disingenuous to me.)

Yes. It was disingenuous/sarcastic. If somebody is going to be triggered by a smiley though, they should probably have to ask permission to use a computer.

I note your condescending tone here: "There is your lesson in Aristotelian argumentation." I note also your use of words which border on the insulting, for example: "That tin hat you wear..." And you sound so pleased with “Hahahah. Thanks for conceding the loss...”

I'm glad you've picked up on my condescension and disingenuity and have noted absolutely none of it from other users. Certainly no detectable bias here... How about:

1. So if you feel like coming on here with accusations of mis-truths then I should feel most unhappy. Is any part of that not crystal clear?
2. I respectfully suggest you take your ideas to a community which better suits your goodself and where the stratum of car owners and sellers better meets with your approval
3. Never seen this crop up before, maybe in Jamie's world it's normal - but certainly not in mine (and most others by the sound of it).
4. you're quite a wag, aren't you.
5. And so wise beyond your years.
6. An advanced motoring past to fall back on. (Of course ripping into me because I haven't owned 15 cars. If I had, I wouldn't be here.)
7. your apparent lack of car ownership will stand you in good stead when people need some sage advice.
8. watch as you grow in stature here in the Backroom
9. Most scammers just post a couple of lines and then pop their advert in ... and it stays up for a while ... then it it gets taken down ... then you re-subscribe with a different name ... etc etc.

Such genuine, earnest replies. I particularly like #1... The last time I heard "Is any part of that not crystal clear?" I was wearing an oversized blazer, knee-high socks and shorts.

You might like to check what "ad hominem" means in contemporary discussions, since two of the three examples you give of it are dubious at best - unless you are still living in the world of Aristotle.

Disagree. Recheck the definition and/or consider the subtext of the quoted remarks.

You continue to keep the topic on the boil even though it ran out of steam many posts ago; one might speculate on the reasons - satisfying your own ego comes to mind as a possible one.

... Are you unaware of your own irony?

I'm not at all surprised that some of the long-standing members of the forum have felt less than positive about the brashness of your contributions. Maybe suggesting you're a spammer was going too far, but common sense or even courtesy might suggest a new boy should tread carefully.

I case you don't know, we are experienced in dealing with "difficult" posters here. Most of them are no longer with us.

Have you considered the fact that new posters aren't difficult and that it's likely the same old "long-standing members" with whom they argue? If you think that having more posts on a forum should give a user additional rights to insult new members, then you're as bad as the "long-standing member". At least we can agree that a few people on here really are great big, long-standing 'members'.

This is a frequent problem with online forums and is likely one of the reasons why they're losing popularity among younger and/or new audiences. If a new member expresses an opinion or asks a question which doesn't fall into the sphere of acceptable opinions they're shouted down and if they dare to argue back, or at least give as good as they're getting then they're a "troublesome" poster or a "troll".

Edited by Jamie3141 on 24/06/2020 at 19:16

You see whatever irony in my post you wish, but I am not the one who has made multiple wordy posts which haven't got the discussion anywhere.

Well, the previous very wordy post you wrote did a great job of answering the original questions I had. Thanks :)

And complaining that everyone on the forum is out of step apart from you doesn't convince.

By the way that you immediately ran to the defence of the "long-standing member" I doubt very much anything would convince you. Like they say, love is blind...

Edited by Jamie3141 on 24/06/2020 at 20:26

KB, I had suspected I would get knocked for having a degree or two (as I wrote after I mentioned them).

our Jamie

I'm glad to have already become a part of the community.

Jamie, if you start another topic then maybe don't expect such a voluminously strata based response factor scenario next time coz I think us old hands (you know, the sort you rather despise) will be wise to it.

Quite the opposite, I came here precisely because there are old hands here, with plenty of experience and a willingness to share it.

Edited by Avant on 28/06/2020 at 23:40

And about the degrees you were bragging about: probably several here have more than one university degree - higher degrees and other professional qualifications. Only we don't need to mention it.

FP, what's your problem?! I was responding to your assessment of my intelligence. I'm not bragging. I hadn't mentioned which subjects they were in or which universities they were from For all you know, they could be from my local polytechnic and be in psychology which would render them entirely useless. Is somebody mentioning they have more than one car bragging about their wealth?

So, after upsetting the forum, you are now the victim? That's a bit rich.

Sorry for upsetting you all. I had thought grown men would have a little more resilience. Jesus. I thought there was strength in numbers? There's at least four of you digging at me...

Hahahah.

I will add to this thread after all. Well done Jamie for hooking me in too.
Very early in this thread I’d concluded you were either a troll or a time waster and I’ve been amazed at the number of responses and the patience showed by some of the long established members of the Forum.

Don’t bother spending half an hour responding why you’re not as described above because I won’t read it nor will I bother reading anything else you write.