NIP speeding letter | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

Tue 7 Dec 2010 13:01

NIP speeding letter - La Roche

I recently recieved a NIP as the owner of a vehicle but I was not the driver at the time, I was abroad (yes this can be proven). The driver was a house guess and non-EU foreign national.

By filling in their details on the request for information page can you tell me if the foreign driver will be persued? Or will the police continue to peruse me?

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Tue 7 Dec 2010 13:53

NIP speeding letter - Dwight Van Driver

Along with the NOIP which has to be served within 14days on the driver where this is known or Reg Owner if driver not known otherwise no prosecution, comes a request to NAME the driver form under section 172 RTA 1988. This has to be completed and returned within 28 days otherwise the recipient (er owner in this case) may well be prosecuted for failing to name the driver.

If they accept details of the Foreign driver then they do not have power to persue him if he is living abroad.

Whilst I do not specifically know what they will do, I would suspect that they will not accept a foreigner as face value and may want some further information. The more supplied the better the chance of acceptance. Makes sense as any one getting a NOIP/172 could enter gibberish and get away with it.

dvd

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Tue 7 Dec 2010 14:20

NIP speeding letter - AnotherWaiting

Also worth noting that the police are entitled to investigate if the person you name was properly insured to drive your vehicle. This 'investigation' will work like most in that it is assumed they were not insured and unless the investigation reveals that they were, it will be deemed that they were not. They can then decided to progress against you or not.

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Tue 7 Dec 2010 16:45

NIP speeding letter - La Roche

Thank you both for your responses. I will provided details of the house guest whi had access of the car whilst I was away, though they have now returned to their country of origin. I will also supply them with details of my passport as proof that I was abroad on the date of the stated offence

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Thu 9 Dec 2010 13:03

NIP speeding letter - Ubermik

If you can prove unequivicably you were abroad then it might have been easier and simpler to just stick to that defence and remain quiet about the foriegn national

This would (in effect) prove you werent the driver, meaning either the car was being driven by persons "unknown" and without your permission which you cannot be held liable for, or was someone driving a similar car with cloned number plates which you're also not responsible for

This might have been a far simpler and less involved path to take if your proof of being out of the country is irrefuteable and would leave you completely off the hook once that has been established

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Thu 9 Dec 2010 13:28

NIP speeding letter - FP

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but hasn't the OP been asked to say who was driving - and doesn't he have to make a response to this or risk prosecution?

It seems to me that merely saying, in effect, "It wasn't me and I can prove it" look like an attempt to avoid answering the question, especially as he says he does in fact know who was driving? And do we know that the person concerned was in fact driving without permission?

Edited by ChrisPeugeot on 09/12/2010 at 13:30

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Thu 9 Dec 2010 13:31

NIP speeding letter - Collos25

Be careful a passport is no proof you were not in the country many expats have two passports and the police in the UK know this.Better is a letter from the company you were with or a letter from the holiday firm.

Edited by Andy Bairsto on 09/12/2010 at 13:31

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Thu 9 Dec 2010 14:08

NIP speeding letter - Berisford

Just tell 'em who was driving and leave 'em to it.

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Thu 9 Dec 2010 15:52

NIP speeding letter - mickeybay

Had a NIP once when an au pair was driving our car in the UK. We were at home when she was caught at 2am in our home town by a fixed speed camera.
Au Pair was on the insurance and had returned to Spain by the time the NIP arrived.
We provided full details of her including Spanish address.

Had a letter back implying that we might be lying and warning us as to the consequences but accepting our explanation this time.

She was never contacted by the authorities.

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Thu 9 Dec 2010 17:26

NIP speeding letter - AnotherWaiting

>>If you can prove unequivicably you were abroad then it might have been easier and >>simpler to just stick to that defence and remain quiet about the foriegn national

There is absolutely no loop hole in the process for you to do that. You *have* to name who was driving.. end of.

The form, which must be returned doesn't allow another possibility and its futile to return it incomplete or with a letter etc.

It doesn't matter if you were on live TV meeting the queen at the precise time of the alleged incident, you have to name the driver of your car, simple as that.

The post above by "ChrisPeugeot" is spot on.

Edited by AnotherWaiting on 09/12/2010 at 17:28

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Fri 10 Dec 2010 00:33

NIP speeding letter - Ubermik

You dont "have" to name someone

What if they were away and someone took the car without their permission?

They wouldnt know who was driving it and therefore couldnt give a name

So the loophole is there for the OP to say he isnt aware anyone was driving it and name the housesitter as the only person he "knew of" at the house, who could also deny it was him too if he wasnt insured

This kind of scenario is in quite a few instances the actual truth. anyway, and its not beyond the realms of reasonable probabillity that

But I only suggested it as a possible option as someone (maybe the OP) seemed concerned about whether the actual driver had insurance and whether that could mean it would still fall back on them for letting an uninsured driver use their car knowingly as it would seem to

a) Have a chance of making them give up trying to pursue it further and just take his word for it

b) even if he ends up paying with it anyway with an "unknown" person behind the wheel might be less of a headache than an insurance violation that could potentially force his premiums up

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Fri 10 Dec 2010 07:39

NIP speeding letter - AnotherWaiting

You dont "have" to name someone

>> I guess you don't *have* to do anything but as the form clearly states you risk prosecution. Anyone who has seen one of these forms will recall there is no facility for you to say you don't know, or return an incompleted form. The process has been designed to counter all the usual "It wasn't me and I don't who it was scenarios" they are not as daft as the many people who try and wriggle out of a NIP

What if they were away and someone took the car without their permission?

>> The police would already be pursuing and have on record the theft of motor vehicle case that you had surely reported wouldn't they? I think to say you hadn't noticed until you received the NIP that "someone" but you don't know "who" had stolen your car but then returned it would be laughable. If you were to attempt to water it down to an unknown friend or relative 'borrowing' the car it just wouldn't wash, skip down to the insurance offence codes at the bottom of the post.

They wouldnt know who was driving it and therefore couldnt give a name

>> once again though, you risk prosecution, job done for the Police.

-----------------
What are my obligations on receiving the Notice of Intended Prosecution?
You are required to identify the driver of the vehicle. You must do this within 28 days and if you fail to do so, you have committed a further offence for which your licence can be endorsed with 6 penalty points and a fine up of £1,000 imposed.

-----------------

My point is that similar to the road tax SORN rule, the process has been carefully designed to put the onus and responsibility on you. It is after all your vehicle and all persons who drive your vehicle should be insured to do so or they risk prosecution for no insurance and you risk prosecution for allowing it .....

IN10 Using A Veh. Uninsured Against Third Party Risks

IN12 Aiding, Abetting, Counselling Or Procuring > In10

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Fri 10 Dec 2010 07:57

NIP speeding letter - La Roche

Thanks again for all of your responses. However I haven’t got an issue with providing the drivers details as per my original question, I just wanted clarity as whether the authorities will accept this is and pursue the driver who ha since returned to their native country (non EU) or will they still chase me as the registered keeper of the vehicle. Bearing in mind that I can prove (stamped passport, tourist visa, ticket and boarding pass, etc) that I was abroad during the incident

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Fri 10 Dec 2010 08:21

NIP speeding letter - AnotherWaiting

Its not clear cut, its down the particular processing department. I believe they can be quite aggresive though particularly in relation to insurance.

Personally if it were me and I had any doubts at all about your friend being fully insured, I would tread very carefully.

Edited by AnotherWaiting on 10/12/2010 at 08:22

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Fri 10 Dec 2010 14:01

NIP speeding letter - LucyBC

You are obliged to name the driver if you know who was driving. If you do not name the driver then you need to show that you have used "all due diligence" to discover who was driving. The courts set the bar very high on what they regard as "all due diligence" and you will get six points and a substantial fine if you lose. I would not suggest anyone attempts such a defence without contacting me for detailed personal advice on the circumstances of their particular case.

In this case the OP does not seem to wish to avoid naming the driver. They are happy to do so but claims they have returned or gone abroad.

In these circumstances the police will demand the OP produces a valid insurance certificate showing that at the time of the offence the vehicle was insured either "any driver" (which is extremely rare nowadays), or that the driver was named on the policy as covered to drive in the UK at the time of the offence.

Being insured on a foreign vehicle or their country of origin will not wash with the court and unless the insurance certificate can be produced as outlined above they will change the charge to "permit a driver with no insurance" which carries exactly the same penalty as a "no insurance" offence - 6-8 penalty points and a very substantial fine.

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Fri 10 Dec 2010 17:42

NIP speeding letter - AnotherWaiting

This is topical ... todays news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11972525

Scary stuff.

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Mon 13 Dec 2010 13:03

NIP speeding letter - ijws15

"Bearing in mind that I can prove (stamped passport, tourist visa, ticket and boarding pass, etc) that I was abroad during the incident "

None of these are proof that you were abroad, just that you may have been in a particular place at a particular time.

As has been said it is possible to have two passports (e.g. one for Saudi Arabia and one for Israel). Don't do anything that may make them suspicious of your motives and don't volunteer information that they have not asked for, tell them who the driver was (i assume they were insured) and deal with any questions as they arise.

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Tue 14 Dec 2010 11:40

DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - bk.bas

In 2000 I recieved a NIP for my company car. I was pretty sure that I wasn't driving at the time. I asked for a photo which was sent, but although clearly not me i couldn't make out clearly who it was. I provided the Hants police with a list of all of the drivers who had access to my car. I heard nothing for 6 months and was then prosecuted for failing to provide the drivers details. I lost the case even though I had provided all names (well the law is seldom on the side of justice or the individual after all). An MS90 code then makes you invalid for cheap insurance quotes for 5 years, so all in it cost me an extra couple of grand including the £250 fine and costs....BEWARE AND IF IN DOUBT WEAR THE 3 POINTS FP!

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Tue 14 Dec 2010 11:46

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - bk.bas

In court they played a video from the speed camera (one of those set up a tripon and catch everyone type things). I could clearly then see it who was driving. They said I could have gone to police headquarters in Winchester and seen the video anytime before the issuing of the failure to provide summons....like I would know that! Even though the driver was then identified I copped the MS90 as it was prosecution for a different offence by then, they had totally lost interest in prosecuting the original offender or offence of 41 in a 30 mph zone!

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Tue 14 Dec 2010 14:34

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - LucyBC

These cases can be defended if you have a decent well prepared case and can genuinely show you didn't know who was driving. My colleague wins 96% of those we run - but this case was about someone naming an overseas driver - which is slightly different - so see my answer above.

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Sat 15 Jan 2011 12:16

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - La Roche

These cases can be defended if you have a decent well prepared case and can genuinely show you didn't know who was driving. My colleague wins 96% of those we run - but this case was about someone naming an overseas driver - which is slightly different - so see my answer above.

Ok, so after supplying details of the driver who has since returned to their native country, I have received a letter from the authorities stating that I must seek written confirmation and signed liability from the nominated driver. Again the driver has since returned to their home country. What do I do?

I have no letter from my insurer to show that the driver was insured at the time as this person only spent two nights at my house and had no explicit instructions to drive the car but did so on this one occasion because they were the only sober person capable of driving back from a night out.

Once again all of this happened whilst I was out of the country of which of this have been supplied to the authorities. Again any suggestions as to how I can bring this mater to a satisfactory end?

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Sat 15 Jan 2011 15:16

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - Westpig

Again any suggestions as to how I can bring this mater to a satisfactory end?

1, If you were the driver, you accept responsibilty and cop the speeding points.

2, If you allowed someone to drive your car who was uninsured, admit that and cop a load of points for permitting no insurance.

3, If someone drove your car, uninsured and without your permission, advise the police who will take a statement from you, your friend will be nicked the next time they enter the country and you'll have to be a prosecution witness at court. They will be dealt with for 'Taking a Conveyance' a form of theft.

4, If you don't properly tell the police who the driver was, you'll be prosecuted for that and cop a load of points

Don't whatever you do lie to the police about something that they then find out, otherwise you'll be prosecuted for Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice which is a serious criminal offence and you can easily get imprisoned for it.

Presumably, a friend living in your house and close enough to you to borrow your car whenever they fancied, is also close enough to you to correspond with the police in this country and help you out of your predicament.

Edited by Westpig on 15/01/2011 at 15:19

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Sat 15 Jan 2011 15:50

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - LucyBC

The police probably believe either you were the driver (which you may be able to challenge if you have sufficient documentation) or that you are probably covering up for a driver who is resident in the UK - who may be a relative or friend and was probably insured to drive the vehicle, and may well have been driving it at the time.

If you strongly assert this was not the case then the police can demand, variously, that you show the overseas person you have named was in the country at the time - including entry points and dates and leaving points and dates or a place where they stayed, was licensed to drive your vehicle and was insured to drive your car.

Or an admission from them that they committed an offence.

Westpig's advice is good. Nobody has said so but you give the impression of slipperiness and you probably will to the courts -- which may take a view as to what comprises "beyond reasonable doubt" which may not accord with your own.

You may show them you are entirely beyond reproach but you are unlikely to do so without legal assistance.

Please contact me with a telephone number and I will arrange a free advice call as at the moment you just seem to be digging yourself in deeper.

Otherwise you will probably be surprised how many resources the police will afford to investigating your case - largely on the gorunds of discouraging others.

Best wishes

Lucy Bonham Carter
asklucy@honestjohn.co.uk

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Sat 15 Jan 2011 18:56

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - Westpig

>>Otherwise you will probably be surprised how many resources the police will afford to >>investigating your case - largely on the gorunds of discouraging others

To start with there'll be a rubber stamp type system, with civilian case clerks. If it gets to be a 'difficult one' then police officers/supervisors step in.

Once you are at that second stage, you are well and truly in the spotlight and need to be on strong ground indeed to beat the system.

I think you'll find that the mentality is ' everyone else plays ball, why should some lie their head off and beat the system'.

That's not to say that there aren't some genuine cases, in which case that person has nothing to fear as long as they can convince a Magistrates Court and not fall foul of the failing to provide the required info (driver) offence. A noticeable minority of people 'try it on'. My advice to them is 'good luck'.

I cannot for the life of me see why anyone would risk a criminal record and/or prison for a minor motoring offence. Plenty do though.

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Sat 15 Jan 2011 22:03

MORE-DON'T GET AN MS90 FAILURE TO DISCLOSE - La Roche

Thanks Lucy I will drop you an email.

Regards

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Tue 14 Dec 2010 13:49

NIP speeding letter - grumpy john

You must provide the details of the driver at the time the offence was committed or you will be pursued for the offence.

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Sun 16 Jan 2011 12:27

NIP speeding letter - PatrickO

Blimey, I think i'd just take the 3 points. No justice but then justice is blind.

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