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Tried that and the car stalled.
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Tried that and the car stalled.
I suspect you're just doing it wrong (not your fault - there's no way my ego would let me read the manual!).
There's a thread about Passat electric brake here: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=63989
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I think BP's right in that the brake should release as you take up power, however i wonder just how much extra wear such a system puts on the clutch and possibly more importantly the DMF over the life of the car.
Regardless of how it's supposed to work, i agree with Espada's thread title, can't say as i've ever found a normal reasonably well maintained car's handbrake causing me to wish they were anything other than simple mechanical linkages, that you can ''feel''.
Edited by gordonbennet on 15/11/2009 at 21:28
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Normally, I'll defend new technology against the technophobes, but, in this case, I too can't see the point of automatic handbrakes.
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Well I would fully defend the one in 2004 Scenic, worked a treat. Yes I could live without it but could also live without elec windows, air con etc.
Never had any trouble with it, other than when you switched cars and forgot to apply handbrake as you are used to the car doing it itself!
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HGVs for years had a button to release the handbrake
well its a lever but its on or off
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well its a lever but its on or off
But being an air valve you can infinitely vary the pressure applied through it just as you can a normal cable handbrake, hence the handbrake doubles as the emergency secondary barke (obviously) and in use is every bit as easy to control progressively as the footbrake.
This wasn't always the case and the secondary brakes on British (and some foreign) trucks was separate again...then known as the dead mans handle, with another (third) brake being the handbrake which on many was mechanical.
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I drove a Renault Espace with an automatic handbrake and I found one quickly forgets all about handbrakes in the way one forgets about gears in an car with an automatic gearbox. However, on balance I prefer a simple mechanical handbrake.
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"Never had any trouble with it...."
Fair enough, Bobby, but I don't suppose you've ever had any trouble with ordinary mechanical handbrakes on other cars you've had.
Nobody to my knowledge has ever come up with an answer to the question 'what is the ADVANTAGE of electronic handbrakes?'
Incidentally, nobody needs a Passat even if they want to stay with VAG. The Octavia has only slightly less room (and is cheaper), the Superb quite a lot more. Both Skodas have proper handbrakes, praise be.
Edited by Avant on 15/11/2009 at 22:48
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It was answered up the thread. You forget about it. As tho you never had one. Its always there working as a handbrake without you needing to worry about it, pull levers, or slip clutches.
Till it goes wrong of course.
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A mate has a Scenic with an auto handbrake, and a Siecento with a conventional one. He fried the rear brakes on the Fiat through continually forgetting to release the handbrake when he drove it.
There isn't much to go wrong with a cable handbrake, apart from the cable itself which is a cheap and easy fix. I can envisage the pursed lips and the sharp intake of breath when you visit the garage for a quote after your computer controlled electronic box of tricks has given up the ghost.
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I suppose the advantage in theory is that hill starts are much easier if you can't drive properly.
They do not cause any problem - in this case it was either broken or the driver being stupid stupid stupid and not using it correctly. Did you have the seatbelt on? VAG versions will not normally release unless you do. If you don't, you do indeed need your foot on the brake and 3 legs. In day to day driving you shouldn't ever need to release it using the button on the dash.
They don't seem to give much trouble. I don't see them as any advance but I can't get too upset about them either.
Edited by pd on 15/11/2009 at 23:52
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Nobody to my knowledge has ever come up with an answer to the question 'what is the ADVANTAGE of electronic handbrakes?'
Actuating stepper motors are integral with calipers. Brake actuators and switch plug into loom. No cables to run, no connections to make / tighten = cheaper to assemble.
As for it only working if you have your seatbelt fastened, that's the Audi range off my "things to try" list when I renew my fleet car next month. I'll accept a flashing light. I'll only accept an audible warning if it can be disabled. I'll not accept something that prevents me twiddling the thing round the car park unless belted as I habitually remove the thing to gain access to the car park card swipe machine and also to reverse into parking spaces and drives.
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Well I would fully defend the one in 2004 Scenic worked a treat. Yes I could live without it but could also live without elec windows air con etc. Never had any trouble with it other than when you switched cars and forgot to apply handbrake as you are used to the car doing it itself!
I agree totally, BobbyG. We never found ourselves in any scenario, whether a gentle slope, or a 1 in 4 hill, going forwards or reversing, pulling off, or simply easing forwards, in which the auto parking brake didn't function perfectly.
Takes some time to learn to trust it though. Particularly in heavy traffic.
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Isn't the main reason simply one of packaging; moving the handbrake from between the seats leaves more room for cup holders!!
I wonder too if its something to do with cars getting bigger/taller resulting in the handbrake often ending up further from the driver. Perhaps that sometimes means manufacturers can't get away with just having one set-up for left and right hand drive, at which point perhaps the electric release becomes cheaper too??
Peter
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I had a rental C-Max with an electric handbrake, after two weeks I had still not got used to it. I am usually quite happy with new technology, but the electric handbrake is a solution without a problem. My next car wont have one, and hopefully they will have been perfected before they become a standard fit.
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I wonder too if its something to do with cars getting bigger/taller resulting in the handbrake often ending up further from the driver. Perhaps that sometimes means manufacturers can't get away with just having one set-up for left and right hand drive at which point perhaps the electric release becomes cheaper too??
But the more expensive Golfs all have the handbrake set up for Left hand dtrive (despite ewhat it shows in the brochures), the cheaper Octavia is set up appropriately for the side the steering wheel is on.
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The A4 manual courtesy I had had an electric handbrake and as Espada has found out on the first use after starting you need to release it manually. It then goes onto auto release.
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Espada, did you have your seat belt fastened? In the A6, the electronic brake releases automatically, forwards or backwards, ONLY when the driver's seat belt is fastened. If not, it won't release and you will stall (as you found out). As you also discovered, you can override this 'safety feature' when your seatbelt is not fastened by simultaneously pressing the brake pedal and pushing the switch down. I don't recommend trying this whilst doing a hill start unless you have 3 legs (or more). Takes a bit of getting used to and perhaps a case of RTFM, or just learning by doing, if you actually own one.
One advantage. I read one of the Towcar of the Year test reports a couple of years ago. The Passat's electronic handbrake was praised by the judges. They said that they initially viewed it with scepticism - silly solution to a non-existant problem etc. By the end of the week, they were fed up with having to almost wrench the conventional handbrakes of some of the other test cars out of their mountings to hold a caravan on Millbank's test slope. Flick of a switch and no fuss in the Passat.
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AH!
No - seat belt not worn as I was only getting the car out of the parking space in a private car park.
Is that it? Stupid again! The Nanny state has come to us all - Argh!
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>>AH!>>
Back Roomers to the rescue again!
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Is that it? Stupid again! The Nanny state has come to us all - Argh!
Ah, the Renault system would release the parking brake, but would then beep softly at you and blink its seatbelt warning light. If you did not comply with Nanny within about 10 seconds, the beeping would turn very loud and very angry to the point where it was completely intolerable. SWMBO and I used to joke that it was akin to an electronic angry Frenchman jumping up and down and cursing us "stoopeed rosbif eeediots"
I have since learned however that these seatbelt enforcement systems are part of the NCAP scoring process, which is why they are found in so many cars today.
The Volvo has a lovely civilised "bong" which is almost relaxing, accompanied by a seat belt warning mounted on the rear view mirror where it really doesn't annoy. Kind of defeats the object really. But so Volvo. :-)
Edited by DP on 16/11/2009 at 10:43
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I presently have an Audi A6 on extended on loan. It has an electronic handbrake which I didn't use for ages as the car is an automatic. When I did try to use it I discovered that it does release automatically when I put my foot down, but there is a noticeable clonk and a delay of a second or so after the transmission has clearly fully engaged the clutch (it's a CVT) before the brake itself releases. If I drove like this with a normal handbrake I would accuse myself of not showing adequate mechanical sympathy.
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after the transmission has clearly fully engaged the clutch (it's a CVT) before the brake itself releases.
I bet that'll be hilarious in icy weather!
Such a system on RWD cars will presumeably have them spinning on the spot.
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>>I bet that'll be hilarious in icy weather!
You could be right, BP. On a manual A6, it works well most of the time, and seems to release the brakes smoothly and at the right moment. BUT just once, when trying to move off on loose gravel, the front wheels were spinning and throwing stones around before there was enough torque at the rear wheels for the sensors to release the brakes.
All things considered, I'd rather have a normal handbrake...
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Another good one on the A6 - it won't start unless you have the clutch pedal all the way to the floor.
These 'safety' features are all very fine, but we now have a situation where an experienced driver, stepping into an unfamiliar car, is probably unable to a) start the engine b) drive it out of a parking space. Hmmm.
Maybe it's supposed to stop children starting the car or releasing the brakes by accident, and rolling off a cliff. But wait - that actually happened last summer, didn't it? In a Citroen with an EPG? Clever, these kids.
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These 'safety' features are all very fine but we now have a situation where an experienced driver stepping into an unfamiliar car is probably unable to a) start the engine b) drive it out of a parking space. Hmmm.
Ha ha. Takes me back to my first encounter with a Scenic II. Hired at Schiphol Airport in the Netherlands. Took my boss and I 20 minutes to work out how to start the thing (a combination of a non-hands free keycard, push button start, and the fairly comprehensive starting instructions that scroll up on the computer display being, of course, in Dutch. :-)
After eventually getting it running, we then couldn't work out how to release the parking brake. I suggested just trying to drive the thing forwards, which my boss did, accompanied by a reassuring "whirr" from the back of the car, and unrestricted forward motion.
That was three years ago, he now has other responsibilities and I rarely see him, but we still chuckle about it when we do catch up. Felt like a right pair of muppets.
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Maybe it's supposed to stop children starting the car or releasing the brakes by accident and rolling off a cliff. But wait - that actually happened last summer didn't it? In a Citroen with an EPG? Clever these kids.
Or maybe it was driver error ?
The handbrake and gear selection doesn't work without the key in the ignition, switched to P1.
Got me thinking about those keyless entry systems though. I wonder if that checks to see if the key is actually inside the vehicle before enabling the ignition or just in close proximity.
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Got me thinking about those keyless entry systems though. I wonder if that checks to see if the key is actually inside the vehicle before enabling the ignition or just in close proximity.
The cars I've driven with keyless would only enable the ignition if the key was inside the car. Yes, I went out of my way to see if I could fool the system.
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What we need is an internationally agreed set of interlocks, so anyone can start and drive a car without reading the manual first. The manual should be for all the non essential bits and pieces not directly involved in driving.
Fat chance of that happening!
Edited by Old Navy on 16/11/2009 at 11:55
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What we need is an internationally agreed set of interlocks so anyone can start and drive a car without reading the manual first. The manual should be for all the non essential bits and pieces not directly involved in driving.
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I would extend that wish to parking as I found out with the auto Auris I hired i.e. it should be left in gear when parking it.Fat chance of that happening!
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What we need is an internationally agreed set of interlocks so anyone can start and drive a car without reading the manual first.
we had that - mechanical handbrake, ignition key, gearlever in conventional place...
how long before some idiot decides the clutch would be better operated by a button on the steering wheel?
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some idiot decides the clutch would be better operated by a button on the steering wheel?
Harrumph... or by a switch on top of the gear lever like an NSU RO80 and a number of other cars, or the gear lever (or rather wand) itself a la DS... been done quite a few times. Carp arrangement in my opinion and indeed experience, but people got used to it and liked it.
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Espada
Future Mrs L has this on her '07 Passat Tdi, now with 90k trouble free miles on the clock. She loves it and would not have anything else!
Anticipating a new company car next Spring, I thought that a more practical car ie 5 door hatch (she thinks only males should be allowed to drive estate cars!!) would be the new Skoda Superb. We visited the showroom and her first question was....no, it did not have an electronic handbrake, so she turned on her heel and walked away without a backward glance.
Personally, I have never had a problem using it, nor has she...but then she does drive quite a few miles. I would never buy one privately...it looks like an expensive repair bill waiting to happen. Why reinvent the wheel, but she thinks it is better than sliced bread. Such is life.....
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I agree with Avant's stance.
Just because something 'works' doesn't mean it's better than what we had. My missus wanted one of those electric tin openers a few years ago for her birthday. A completely pointless gadget in my view. Yes it 'works' (or worked as it's now broken, another useless piece of crap heading for landfill) and maybe in a catering environment where one may be opening many cans it would have some use. In a domestic house I don't see the point and seems out of tune with the latest policy of using less energy.
I don't like technology that is complicated and offers minimal (if any) advantage to the motorist and has the potential to be ruinously expensive when it goes wrong. Electric handbrakes are a perfect example. These are all solutions to problems that no-one ever had. Being a cynic I would suggest that these are just ways of the manufacturers screwing more money out of us.
The day when I can't decide when or how to apply a handbrake is the day I will hand in my licence.
Before anyone calls me a luddite (and that would be very polite compared to some things I get called) there is technology that offers immense benefits at relatively modest cost and this technology I strongly support. ABS and airbags/air curtains are excellent examples of technology that could/does save lives offering big benefits for comparatively modest outlay. In addition ESC/ESP systems also offer significant safety benefits at minimal extra cost on an ABS vehicle.
I believe Ford have dropped the electric handbrake from the C-Max.
I suppose we've got the French to thank for a lot of this, since it is often on their cars that these irksome gadgets first appear.
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this got me thinking, isnt there a law where there has to be a mechanical secondary backup in case the electric brakes fail, what if you had a flat battery will the brake work?
Or a ecu malfunction, or the switch itself that fails after so many countless depressions, to me i agree with fellow posters, i dont find any advantages to what improvements the electric brake switch has over the the conventional system.
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Electric handbrake can be released manually if required, certainly in the Scenic there was a way of going into the boot and releasing it.
For every technological improvement, there are pros and cons.
PAS, we could all use cars before power steering came along. Yes it made it easier but its new and fangled technology and adding in all sorts of things that can only break.
Have never had any issues with PAS on any car.
Same for electric windows, air con, airbags, tyre pressure sensors, auto lights, auto wipers etc etc
Doesn't mean I would pick them all in my next car, but also don't need to flatly refuse them on the grounds that the existing "older" systems work fine.
If they were so bad
a. why do manufacturers develop them and put them into their model range
b. why do consumers buy cars with them?
As said before, had one on my Scenic and I miss it. Thought it was great.
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Electric handbrake can be released manually if required certainly in the Scenic there was a way of going into the boot and releasing it.
Thats clever!
Cant get parking brake off.. go into boot, manually release it.
Whoops! forgot to put it into gear, now rolling off down the hill!
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>> Whoops! forgot to put it into gear now rolling off down the hill!
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With me in the boot!
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The manual release was invaluable when SWMBO put 10 litres of Unleaded in it by accident one day. I didn't even want to turn the ignition on in case it pulled the petrol through the fuel system, so we used this to enable the car to be recovered on a truck.
As with BobbyG, no complaints about Renault's system at all. It works superbly.
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I like gadgets and technology. I'm just not sure which problem the manufacturers are solving with electrically controlled handbrakes. If it's to free up space in the centre console, then the Mercedes footbrake/ handbrake combination is simpler and works just as well (at least in automatics). The freed up space only seems to get used for cupholders anyway.
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In my (otherwise rather wonderful) Citroen GSA, the handbrake lever came out of the dash, where the radio would usually be. The radio was where the handbrake lever would normally be, mounted sideways. This was an apalling arrangement.
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Hmm. MB's foot-operated parking brake doesn't have too many fans and has (so it is said) cost them sales. Hill starts are quite a performance in a manual. OK, most are autos, so you can simply keep your foot on the brake at junctions....and dazzle the person behind you.
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A hill start with a manual Mercedes with a trailer hitched on (to around max weight) is an interesting manoevre - I've tried it.
It astonishes me that a maker who prides itself on developments in vehicle safety comes up with a system which basically makes the vehicle uncontrollable under these conditions. The same people are still producing RHD cars with wipers set up for LHD - the "clap hands" variety have the passenger wiper on top which leaves a streak in front of the driver's eyes on the last wipe - especially when the blades are a bit old.
I wish our vehicle certification Authorities would be a lot less spineless with these arrogant makers. I suppose the EEC...
A manual handbrake between the front seats is a "problem" which doesn't need fixing.
659.
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I wish our vehicle certification Authorities would be a lot less spineless with these arrogant makers. I suppose the EEC...
I'm surprised the EEC hasn't mandated that we switch to driving on the right.
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A hill start with a manual Mercedes with a trailer hitched on (to around max weight) is an interesting manoevre - I've tried it.
I can understand why applying the parking brake could be awkard on a manual Mercedes as you have to keep your right foot on the brake pedal, put the gearbox in neutral and then move your left foot from the clutch to the parking brake. I don't understand why releasing it is a problem.
On my Mercedes automatic, I slip the gearbox into neutral at traffic lights and apply the parking brake. Before moving away, I put the lever into Drive and then release the brake. I like the reassuring mechanical clonk of the brake releasing, it has that old fashioned well engineered Mercedes feel about it. By the way on this old Merc I can engage Drive without having to press the brake pedal.
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By the way on this old MercI can engage Drive without having to press the brake pedal.
I can do that in my 2006 Mazda 6 auto. Was quite surprised when I found out. I was already used to my wife's DSG VW, which requires the brake pedal to be depressed to change from neutral to drive.
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A manual handbrake between the front seats is a "problem" which doesn't need fixing
Agreed. There used to be cars with an umbrella-style pull-on handbrake somewhere beside the accelerator, as I recall - you twisted it to release?
But I also suspect that the 'problem' the makers are trying to solve is the tiny income from repairs caused by manual-handbrake failures. We should concentrate more on technological advances that bring real and useful advantages, such as replacing trafficators with 'flashers' - tho come to think of it, the income from repairing trafficators must have been pretty good ...
Edited by Andrew-T on 17/11/2009 at 17:46
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There used to be cars with an umbrella-style pull-on handbrake somewhere beside the accelerator as I recall - you twisted it to release?
I had one of these on a 1979 Mercedes W116 (280S). This was an auto, so it was OK, but I wouldn't have wanted it on a manual.
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Hill starts are quite a performance in a manual. (Mercedes).
They've had hill-hold on the manuals for a while now.
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>>A hill start with a manual Mercedes with a trailer hitched on (to around max weight) is an interesting manoevre
Is it?
Bring clutch to biting point, pull the release lever on the dashboard, and you're away.
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>>They've had hill-hold on the manuals for a while now.
Is that the same as the EPB - just drive off and it releases by itself - or something else? With some systems, you have to be careful to make a clean getaway on a hill start - no dithering or the brakes fully release and you roll back. I had a feeling that hill hold was an option last time I looked at MB, but happy to be corrected on that.
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Another good one on the A6 - it won't start unless you have the clutch pedal all the way to the floor.
Those of us who learned to drive 40 odd years ago tend to do that anyway! Saved the starter motor having to turn the weight of a heavy transmission with thick oil and broke the 'seal' that sometimes happened between clutch plate and flywheel
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>>Those of us who learned to drive 40 odd years ago tend to do that anyway!
Agreed on that, not a problem for me. Usually park in 1st too. But I bet it's caught out a few people trying to start an Audi for the first time :-)
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Being a curmudgingly 50 year old
we lived on a hill, quite steep,
In the days before MOT's
Handbrakes???
On older cars,( which ours were) front wheel turned towards the kerb when parking
anyway anyway what is the mystery about holding the car stationary on the clutch
in either first or reverse ( and we not never required replacment clutches either)
before taking ones foot off the brake
scheesh indeed
A handbrake
Thats pure luxury lad
PS
Mercedes are MEANT to be automatic
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Those of us who learned to drive 40 odd years ago tend to do that anyway! Saved the starter motor having to turn the weight of a heavy transmission with thick oil and broke the 'seal' that sometimes happened between clutch plate and flywheel
Depends what you used to drive! Those of us who drove BMC cars with those graphite release bearings learned very quickly that the clutch pedal was only ever to be touched when changing gear and then only for as little time as possible. Both starting with the clutch out and sitting in gear at junctions were to be avoided at all cost.
The alternative was chewing through a release bearing and needing a clutch job every 10,000 miles.
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