I used to agree wholeheartedly with those who said 'don't spend £2k-£3k - just as much of a gamble as spending £1k'.
The logic used to be good, but crashing s/h prices have changed the game.
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>>The logic used to be good, but crashing s/h prices have changed the game.
Not at all. Just because your 1k will buy you a much nicer car, it still doesn't mean that a 1.5k* bill for a DMF or something looks like good value on a 2k car.
2k is a really bad sum to spend on a car. Easy* to have a bill big enough to write it off. And then where are you? Who was posting on here the other day about a ?Honda? diesel that he'd taken into ?Nationwide Autocentres? and had ended up with a bill of over 2k. On a car with a trade-in value of a similar sort of value.
The logic remains exactly the same.
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*unlikely, yes, but perfectly possible.
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"The logic used to be good, but crashing s/h prices have changed the game"
Crashing s/h prices have in fact reinforced the logic. You now get so much for £1,000 that spending 150% more gets you far more added risk than added benefit. All you get is a later plate, and a big headache if it all goes pear-shaped.
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This often mentioned "don't buy a £2k car" has little basis in fact. The problem of repair costs vs value is a factor right across the price ranges and not specifically at this price point.
There are some staggering bargains at all price points these days and they all have the threat of an unexpected large bill so just get the best value at the time of buying whatever the price range.
Note I've said before though never to buy a £1k car at £2k just because a back street dealer has polished it nicely.
David
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"The problem of repair costs vs value is a factor right across the price ranges and not specifically at this price point"
True, but with labour rates of £700/hour and parts prices it's not hard to get a bill of £1500-£2000 - much less common to get a bill of £5,000 odd, and the £5,000 or more car may well come with a twelve month warranty.
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>>This often mentioned "don't buy a £2k car" has little basis in fact. The problem of
>>repair costs vs value is a factor right across the price ranges and not specifically at this price point.
Lots of basis in fact.
If you can afford to run a 10k car, you can afford a 5k bill. Not least because you probably bought some warranty too. (If you cannot afford that bill, you cannot afford to run the 10k car.)
However, if you can only really afford a 1k car, but can just borrow enough to reach a 2k car (cos to be honest most people can scrape an extra 1k together), then a 1.5k bill will destroy you and the car. It will destroy a 0.5k or 1k car too, but at least you have not borrowed/thrown away every last penny you have.
The other thing about a 1k car is that you can afford third party cover. An insurance claim for under 1k isn't generally worth it - once you've lost NCB and suffered loaded premiums.
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The Tino is a particularly unloved vehicle which is tarred the brush from its sister, the Almera.
Tinos are very cheap because:
* no longer in production
* Almera is a very weak car in terms of its image; not well designed (although engineering is excellent); Tino is a better car but suffers..
* Obscure car.
* Nissan isn't an aspirational brand.
The price range of £2.5k is based on what I've seen on Autotrader.
£2.5k would get you a 6 year old vehicle with up to 60k miles.
I'm very happy with our car. Our plan is to run into the ground (with love and care - just booked it in for its annual service at West London Nissan - taking advantage of their "all brands" fixed price servicing for cars over three years old).
Note that I'm probably going to spend £4.5k - £5k to replace our Polo. I want a 3 year old vehicle.
Our Tino at 6 years has been looked after; if you're going to buy a 6 year old vehicle suggest that this is a critical factor in buying....
Edited by LondonBus on 23/12/2008 at 10:40
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>>Lots of basis in fact.
No its basis is your opinion.
>>If you can afford to run a 10k car, you can afford a 5k bill
Oh come on... perhaps if you run a £40k car a £5k bill might be easy but I know a huge amount of ordinary families who run £10k cars because the *don't* want £5k bills.
>>if you can only really afford a 1k car, but can just borrow enough to reach a 2k car
That's an a point youy're bringing in to biase towards your arguement... Lets keep it a level playing field and assume people can afford the vehicles at all these price points.
other thing about a 1k car is that you can afford third party cover
That's a personal choice... I'm happy to self insure pretty waell every asdpect of ouir life where appropriate and happily cover our £2.3k car (£3k retail) for tpf&t.
David
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Quite honestly the difference between 1k/1.5k and 2k cars is very little... its the state of the car thats important... thats why i suggested you get it checked thoroughly which is far more important than what make or model it is... You can live with minor niggles but don't want anything costly, a decent check is the most important....
There are plenty of sites which give you general reliability of various models check them out as well before you buy.
Edited by b308 on 23/12/2008 at 11:12
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>You can afford third party cover ..
I can't tell how much TPFT compared to Comp cover saves other people, but I have found it saves me very little. We are talking about cars with little residual value, so most of the risk is with third-party claims anyway, as it is usually not worth claiming for bills under £1K (for reasons cited above).
At the sub-£1K level, the outlay on the car is just a splash in the large pond of running cost. The main saving is on depreciation, so spend some time (and if needed, cash) in looking for a good one. There are some out there - but perhaps owners are keeping them for longer these days?
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>>>If you can afford to run a 10k car, you can afford a 5k bill
>Oh come on... perhaps if you run a £40k car a £5k bill might be easy but I know a
>huge amount of ordinary families who run £10k cars because the *don't* want £5k bills.
That is EXACTLY my point. It is perfectly possible to pay 10k for a virtually new "25k list" ordinary car, a new engine for which would cost you what? certainly the better part of 5k. If these "ordinary families" cannot afford that risk, then they cannot afford to run a 10k car. Not in any sensible sense of the word "afford".
>>TPF&T
I too am happy to self-insure most aspects of my life. My point is that the first 1k of risk is virtually uninsurable. So all drivers have to self-insure about that much; so a 1k car neatly fits into that sector.
If you're prepared to self-insure your 3k car, the 5k bill I mention earlier is scarcely any different.
>>Lets keep it a level playing field and assume people can afford the vehicles at all these price points.
Fine. Lots of cash, spend lots on a car, you can afford a new BMW. A bit of cash, spend 5k, can afford to keep it running, you accept it might cost you a few thousand in repairs.
But 2k is a horrid amount to sink into a vehicle as it can be dwarfed by a single repair bill. If you can only afford a 2k car, you cannot actually afford to run it - in any sensible sense of the word "afford".
If you can only afford a 1k car, you cannot afford to run it either, on the same basis as above. However your financial exposure is limited to 1k, therefore in fact your maximum risk is the cost of the car, and you can afford to scrap it instead. (And you'll probably get £500 for it on eBay anyway.)
Anybody who thinks "I have £x in cash in the bank account therefore I can afford to run a £x car," is wrong. He may well be able to afford to buy it, but he cannot afford to run it.
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I went to t.drive a panda this morning that was up at 2,695 just to see what it was like, got it 200 yards and it wouldnt go into gear! haha. nightmare.
Tino looks too big for my needs I would think. Although the spec of one you can get for 2,500-3k is amazing.
As the debate is on here I could just stump up 1k for a Ford Ka 2000 ish and hope to get a few years cheap wear out of it. Not the best car for comfort etc but reliability, fuel consumption, insurance costs are key!
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Ben, sounds like a reasonable approach. I suppose the key thing for your 1k KA is to check it for rust and that its been properly maintained.
And budget for repairs.
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Not sure I have ever read a good word about a Ka on here?
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This is true.
I am going to a garage just after xmas that have in stock at present -
-05 Panda, 60k 2800
-04 Punto, 50 2500
-03 Fusion 80k 2500
-03 Punto 25k 2400
-03 Kalos 21k 2400
-03 Fabia 60k 2400
-03 Ka 53k 2300
-01 Almera 42k 1700
-00 Fiesta 82k 1400
-02 Lanos 57k 1300
-00 Lupo 62k 1300
-00 Megane 74k 999
All at about the right price, milage, size etc. Will give me a better idea of what to go for. All have FSH and 2 owners max. Be interesting.
Any views on any, too expensive, etc etc advice would be good! Going to go boxing day!
(if not then it might be Ebay for a £700 KA! haha)
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beb
From your list I would ignore anything over £2000.
Why?
Always leave a bit for the odd repair/something going wrong.
£500 seems about right.
There is one car that stands out: the Almera: reliable.
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Avoid Renaults of that age and mileage like the plague or a very nasty virus: they can be money pits.
As can hi-mileage cars which have not been maintained.
If you are not mechanically experienced, choose your car but get a written report first or take an experienced friend.
Takes longer, saves lots of grief later.
Edited by madf on 23/12/2008 at 16:44
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On the contrary, I really like my wife's wee Ka to drive and so does she. Great fun. Like a road legal go-kart. In fairness though I probably wouldn't want one as the main car. It would be far too small for me anyway as a daily car and might be restricting for others too. I quite like the basic trim level. You only get what you need and no more. Ours is nearly 5 years old and has never given any bother apart from a 1p sized rust bubble under a door which was easily fixed about a year ago. Mechanically it has been faultless and for town/city work it's ideal. Quite good fun to throw down country lanes too.
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Im no Ford fan, but if I was spending £2.5k, the Ka would be my choice unless I had kids or lots of people to carry. Ford didnt sell them for so long unaltered because it was a bad car - they managed to design a car that had mass appeal right for the start.
Also heaps of choice.
Yes some of them rust, but unless you want to keep it for 5+ years, thats unlikely to be anything more than cosmetic and you can treat it - at the prices they sell for, its a small price to pay.
Just a note - a friend of mine who has a baby can fit her bulky pushchair in her Ka's boot but it simply wont fit in a Grande Punto she tried - progress huh?
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I think from previous posts of yours I've noticed Mapmaker you have a very specific way of financing and running your cars. It may be sensible and prudent for you but you can't force the majority to do the same.
You also seem to base much of the argument on the "inevitable" £5k disaster. In my wide experience of repair costs over many years I've never known anyone have to spend out anything like that on a failure. £250 frequently, £500 maybe, £1000 as a disaster but £5k... well that only happens in HJ forum land not in the real life I've seen.
As I said your argument can be scaled at any price point you like. For example I might happily choose to buy my £2.3k car rather than a £5k car with all the same arguments you give for £1k vs £2k.... others may pick £8k vs £18k.
David
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>>"inevitable"
You put words into my mouth. I have used words like "risk" and "unlikely". Perfectly possible. I have never suggested any inevitability, I hope.
For most, the car is their biggest or second biggest asset (and the house may well have negative "worth") in life. If it goes wrong, they HAVE to sort it, no matter what their financial situation. The RISK of a hefty repair bill for somebody with little spare cash who has sunk 2.5k into a "new" car is too great for many.
The chances are small, which is why you only read about them here, however even a 0.001% annual chance of such a bill of similar magnitude to your expenditure is far too high a level of risk if you are that short of spare cash.
>>As I said your argument can be scaled at any price point you like.
I know, and I disagree with you very strongly. As somebody posted above, with a 1k car, the capital/depreciation cost fades into insignificance compared to general running costs. As your car gets more expensive, the capital cost of the car begins to be more material. I don't think you can argue that 2.3k is immaterial compared to other running costs until you are doing about 50k miles p.a.
If you can afford to spend cash on a brand new motor, then fine. Otherwise many are playing with fire and not realising it.
The more you spend on a car, the more you are (have to be) prepared to spend on repairs. 2.5k is a horrid amount to spend on a car.
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Always look on the bright side of life, duh dum, der dum der dum...
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many are playing with fire and not realising it.
Oh, come on. I think the OP is being very sensible in spending £2.5k when he said he was once considering buying new. In his case £2.5k is probably a relatively small amount of capital to sink into a car and if he chooses wisely, it should buy him something much better and more reliable than a £1k shunter.
The more you spend on a car the more you are (have to be) prepared to spend on repairs.
In my experience, the opposite is true. I think £2.5k is a great amount to spend on a car, you may well be more exposed to rare big bills but in all likelihood less so to frequent small ones. This is the problem with sub £1k cars, they often need regular work on expensive consumables (clutches, brake pipes, suspension components). A 3-5 yr old sub 60k car is far less likely to be a money pit than an 8-10 yr old 100k car. Sure, you could end up with a nasty shock if major work needs doing, but choose wisely and this is just one of life's minor risks. Stop looking at everything as if it were a risk assessment form, you pays your money and takes your chance.
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>>A 3-5 yr old sub 60k car is far less likely to be a money pit than an 8-10 yr old 100k car.
Possibly. But not than a 6-8 year 100k car.
Edited by Mapmaker on 23/12/2008 at 16:51
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