Blimey, Oily, I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole now!
I'd have to look closely at the maths and see if a new one would be worthwhile.
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"I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole now!"
And yet, our Xantia HDi Exclusive, 2000 model, bought in 2002 with 60k on the clock is stilll going strong - nearly 100k on the clock now and due to have the caravan hitched on the back in mid July for a month's tour of France. Reason for low mileage since purchase is that wife drives it to work about a mile or so (don't ask) every morning. And then we go for a blast with a 'van on the back every year. And what has engine required in that time? Cambelt change and a few oil changes. That's it.
I'm just waiting for a C6 to come up second hand - or maybe a new C5 - second hand - preferably a diesel.
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It's just that I wondered if the reports of 'dodgy' diesels had come about as the result of earlier mis-fueling incidents. There are many reports of diesels going on for years, so clearly they can't all be bad - maybe they are the ones that haven't been mis-fueled?
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Waino
common rail diesels are new technology - very high pressure systems and very intolerant of things like misfueling. The older diesels were very tolerant. Hence it became 'common knowledge' that any diesel could have used chip fat/ tesco veg oil / whatever put in. Anf that putting petrol in wouldnt do any real damage. That just isnt true with the newer engines.
Plus as the number of diesels on the road has grown so fast lots of people (esp in pool cars) have suddenly been exposed to the horrid smelly noisy things for the first time and they have the idea that they run on anything, dont need proper maintenance etc.
And of course there are some systems that seem to be made of sticky backed plastic and uhu.
(A two diesel owner writes...)
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We have 2 TDCi's, zero problems. I've heard of plenty of others with zero problems.
As long as you have them properly serviced and use good quality fuel and don't drive the nuts off them you should have a reliable form of transport.
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If I wanted a diesel I'd buy one new or nearly new with a couple of years manufacturer's warranty left. Once a modern diesel has had two or three owners and is a few years old I think the risk of there having been a misfuelling episode is too great. You will probably be ok, but the cost if you're not is huge.
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With the current diesel prices I wonder if there'll be a trend back to petrol - and in a year to 18 months we can look forward to "modern petrols - is there really a problem?" threads after all the misfuelling of petrols from ex-diesel owners?
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With the current diesel prices I wonder if there'll be a trend back to petrol - and in a year to 18 months we can look forward to "modern petrols - is there really a problem?" threads after all the misfuelling of petrols from ex-diesel owners?
Yes the case is looking a bit flakey for diesels now. Personally I have never had an engine related problem in 7 years of driving 3 different diesels. But given that diesel is 15p a litre more than petrol in some cases.
Given my current best local fuel prices my sums say that assuming I would either drive an average 2 litre petrol car or my 2.0 TDI, I would get 32 mpg and 45 mpg respectively on an identical journey down the M4. This equates to 15.8p a mile and 12.6p a mile.
However, if the previously strong residuals of diesels start to faulter you will need to do a lot of mileage now to justify diesel.
I think it is a shame to penalise a source of fuel that generates so much less CO2 per mile thah the alternative, as Mike Rutherford pointed out on TV the other day.
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My 1999 Seat Toledo 1.9 TDiSE still going fabulously with 156,000 miles on the clock. It may last another few years.The engine drives exactly the way you want and over 60mph on long runs.
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Ah Cattleman, was only wondering where you were thismorning, must be telepathic.
Yes, my lads toledo diesel is going strong too, despite his cruel driving, its done about 130k i think and runs very well, but whilst his subara was having a full engine rebuild, he found it lacking as it didn't get from 30 to 80 in 3 seconds flat....kids. That reminds me its almost done the thousand miles since rebuild, he'll be changing the oil any time, i hope he doesn't invite me out for a test flight!!
He's going to run it into the ground, will you do the same.
Just out of interest whats your service regime regarding oil changes, cambelts etc.
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The Toledo TDI is the Barcelona taxi drivers favourite (in a fetching black with yellow doors livery). On my various visits I've been in many of these cars with over 400,000 km (250k miles) on the clock and they still seem fine.
No better advert for a car in my opinion than a taxi drivers' following.
Cheers
DP
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tinyurl.com/6rjgos
Could someone explain to me who these people are who feel the need to tell the world of the minutiae of their private lives?
Perhaps if she had spent a little less time composing that "blog" (if that is what it is called) and a little more time checking that she is using the correct pump in filling stations, fewer people would have had their lives disrupted.
Edited by drbe on 23/05/2008 at 09:57
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A couple of points:
"common rail diesels are new technology"
I suppose that depends on how old "new" is. My understanding is that common rail technology has been around for many years. I thought it first appeared in very big diesels in the 1940s (ships and locomotives), was developed in the late sixties and early seventies and used in commercial vehicles from 1995, with the first car manufacturer to use the system being Fiat in 1997.
I've made the point before regarding the scare stories of misfuelling diesels; there seems to be little hard evidence of long-term problems resulting from this. Certainly some components in some cars will encounter major damage immediately - otherwise, it seems, the majority carry on unaffected once the fuel has been flushed through and (if your luck is out) the fuel pump replaced.
I'm beginning to think "urban myth" here. Correct me, someone?
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with the price of diesel at the moment im suprised how much of the stuff ends up on the garage forcourt floor , then onto my shoes , then into the car !!!
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I bought my tdci 20 months ago with 98k miles on it.
Its now got 146k miles on it and apart from a water and power steering pump issue hasn't missed a beat.
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Its now got 146k miles on it and apart from a water and power steering pump issue hasn't missed a beat.
... ah but ...
Bought my 530D last July with 87K on it. I've added another 16K and have just incurred a £1,000 bill to sort out worn injectors.
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I've driven nearly 100k with the VAG PD engines with no engine probs whatsoever - but what does that prove in isolation? - we are a very small % of diesel car owners (even with the people we know) so our views are hardly likely to be typical of the norm... especially as it is well known that people like to moan, and the internet is the ideal platform for moaning!
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I have a Ford Focus 2002 TDCi- was owned by my dad before me and has full service history and no history of misfuelling. Had no problems at all until the glow plug lamp started to flash occasionally. Have just returned from the diesel specialist who has informed me it needs a new fuel injector pump and injectors and will cost nearly £2K. My dad thinks it might be because I use supermarket fuel.
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I think this 'supermarket fuel' line is just a cop-out. The fuel sold by supermarkets must meet the minimum standards specified by the manufacturers. Can you imagine the lawsuits if it didn't!
I'm sorry, but welcome to the world of common rail diesels!
Mine is out of manufacturers warranty at the end of June, and it will either be going, or else I'll be buying a comprehensive warranty package.
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I just discovered mine (Xsara HDi) doesnt have the ticking timebomb of a DMF clutch, nor a variable vane turbo... for whatever reason, PSA decided not to fit one to the Xsaras?!
Still have the common rail Bosch fuel system, but I certainly dont hear much about them failing often, and I'm mechanically sympathetic so that might help.
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the ticking timebomb a variable vane turbo...
Eh? What ticking timebomb??
I know that a local taxi firm we use have a fleet of Superbs dating from 2002 many with over 160k, some (including one I was in recently) with over 200k and they report no problems...
First I've heard of problem with the PD's variable vane turbo.....
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>> the ticking timebomb >> a variable vane turbo... Eh? What ticking timebomb??
Actually to be fair I was on the Briskoda site not so long aga and they were discussing blown turbos - but 99% of the problems were with ones that had been chipped/remapped, if kept standard they tend to be just as reliable as any other part of the car....
Has anyone else considered that the problem might be more to this than inherent design/manufacture faults? Its an increasing trend, and anyone whos had a blown turbo is hardly likely to admit to fitting a tuning box if they are trying to get their money back, are they!
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The Superb uses the "old" VAG PD diesel which, correctly treated is very reliable.
I suspect the originator of this thread is referring to more modern common rail offerings. As an ex diesel engineer, there are in my view, some aspects of this problem which are quite straightforward - although they don't make comfortable reading.
The essence of efficient diesel operation is to inject the fuel at as high a pressure as possible. This is done by pressurising the fuel using a punp or injector piston in a closely fitting sleeve. As the pressures are so high, a roller type follower has to be used to provide the reciprocating motion for the piston. This applies to any diesel fuel system.
Commercial and very large engines have always been designed for long life so it makes sense to lubricate the cam and roller follower with engine oil - a far better lubricant than fuel. Consequently, large in-line pumps are oil lubricated from the engine and of course, unit injectors (VAG PD) are fully lubricated from the engine oil system.
It is my belief that the lubricity of fuel is insufficient to ensure the reliable operation of the very high pressure systems (usually common rail) now in use and any shortcomings of manufacture and maintenance will quickly cause grief. As with failing cambelts, there is a strong statistical factor in this.
So, I would not buy a modern fuel-lubricated diesel - I'll take good care of my VAG PD.
659.
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I suspect the originator of this thread is referring to more modern common rail offerings.
Smokescreen specifically mentioned "variable vane turbos" - I thought that they were a VAG PD engine turbo, not CR - or have they spread to other makes now?
Edited by b308 on 24/05/2008 at 11:34
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They've spread to common rail engines too, along with petrol turbos. They dont appear to be as vulnerable as the DMF, but as always, dependant on mechanic sympathy from the driver.
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659 and injection doc - any views on the Vauxhall 1.7 cdti common in recent Astras and Corsas ?? Vauxhall always seem to get left out of this VW PD and Ford TDCi debate....
Cheers
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>any views on the Vauxhall 1.7 cdti common in recent Astras and Corsas ?? Vauxhall always seem to get left out of this VW PD and Ford TDCi debate....>
Is it because they are really Fiats? I've learned from this site GM/Saab/Fiat share the same diesel lump
A work colleague has been waxing lyrical about his new Saab 1.9TD, until I suggested that it could be a 'Fiat worse then death.......' He's gone very quiet all of a sudden and has been seen poking around in the engine bay for tell-tale signs of Italian probably in the vain hope of spottinga prancing horse.........
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Funnily enough the FIAT/GM developed Diesels (JTD range) rarely ever get a mention in the technical forums in terms of problems. They're used in a wide range of cars, too.
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well drivewell you won't convince me! I have been involved in fuel tetsing & I will leave it at that!.
The most common cause of CR failures is caused by those that allow the fuel tank to run very low before refill.( this causes air to enter the HP pump shortning its life ) I never run below 1/4 tank.
Petrol inadvertantley put in the tank will also cripple the system as it washes away the lubricating properties of diesel. So whilst the car may still run damage to the HP pump will of occured.
I always use a well known branded fuel but not supermarket! I use injector cleaner avery 3-5000 miles ( snake oil ) That has a high quality lubricant in the addative & this help to lubricate the pumps.
I have run TDCi's for years mostly covering 250+ miles a day & in the last 7 years has one injector recoded! & thats it. I have never had turbo failure or injector,or fuel system or even cylinder head failure. I do admit to driving it carefully when cold & allowing it too cool when hot before switching off & using very high grade engine oil, but as it works for me I will stick to the same recipe.
I Doc
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659 and I Doc.
I'm one of those, according to some, gullible fools who uses snake oil in the guise of millers diesel power plus and latterly power plus 4.
I was talking to a chap who worked for Cummins but who worked on smaller diesels too (this many years ago) that the lowering of the sulphur content in fuel was a big backward step in the lubricity of derv, and he'd seen many ruined pumps in the time after.
I had been using millers anyway, and have done so for years mainly for that very reason.
In your opinions does the lubricant effect of millers help to replace whats been lost.
Not going off topic but interested to know whether you skilled chaps have views on this.
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I too use millers in my cars for the lubrication reasons, i was ok with it in my old vectra dti because the manual stated that you could use additives with that engine, but my 05 volvo D5's manual states that NO additives must be used, but would it still be ok to use the small amount of millers that dilutes with the diesel in every tank?, i personally cant see what could be damaged but you more knowlegable people could possibly answer this question.
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Additives can certainly improve the lubricity of diesel fuel - in most cases 100:1 addition of 2 stroke oil will have the same effect for a lot less money.
This misses the point though - diesel engines are specified in Europe to run on fuel to EN590 and any engine which cannot do this is a failure. Additives are not generally sanctioned by engine manufacturers (VAG expressly advise against their use) and unlike oils and fuels, carry no specification. So, in my book, they're snake oil.
A well designed engine has to run for an agreed useful lifetime with the specified fuel and oil - that's all.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 24/05/2008 at 12:53
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Thanks 659, as i can get the millers by the gallon can for very reasonable price i'll carry on, i trust you were agreeing its good for the use of.
I understand your point about an engine being supposedly designed with a fuel in mind, but as we are hearing often, some don't seem to do so well, a little extra lubricant gives hopefully an extra chance of long term reliability.
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