IIRC Renault owns 44% of Nissan at the moment, Nissan's stake in Renault is 15%. CEO of Renault is automatically chief at Nissan and head of something called along the lines of Alliance Board (4 Renault members, 3 Nissan members).
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Are the engines in the new model Micra Renault or Nissan? I was under the impression Renault now rule the roost, so have been put off the Nissan brand. The Koreans build better cars than Renault.
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I believe the petrol engines in the Micra are Nissan. Diesels are Renault.
Koreans build better cars than Renault? 'Better' is rather a vague term. Possibly in terms of reliability. Possibly not in terms of safety. Eight cars five stars NCAP5.
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Eight cars five stars NCAP5.
Turns out five starts NCAP5 might be questionable pride as well. You get TV show to smash a 7 seater Grand Espace vs large, well built 7 seater 4x4 and it turns out that practically no car on our streets could stop a five star ncapper from jumping up on the other vehicle upon impact and driving through its passengers like a monster truck gone wild in Matchbox factory. Super safe super killer....
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Car manufacturers make cars to pass safety tests rather than to actually be safe. Renault don't care about safety any more than Proton does.
But it makes really good press to have a car with a 5-star safety rating.
Hyundai build cars to pass the US safety tests with 5 stars, which they regularly manage. Different tests, different results, does it mean anything? Does it heck.
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NOt had your crash in your lesser star car yet then?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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NOt had your crash in your lesser star car yet then?
How is it "lesser star"?
It was given 5 stars in the US test. Euro NCAP couldn't be bothered to test it.
If they can't lift their finger to test the car I drive, why should I take any notice of what they say?
Car manufacturers and the various NCAP authorities are in each other's pockets. Until each insurance company produces real-world statistics that can be collated together in a scientific way, these star ratings are nothing more than a highly dubious guide.
If the Laguna is so safe, how come there is a guy on Parkers who actually managed to snap his brake pedal in an emergency? The snap happened due to a badly-made plastic component, where it should have been made of metal.
There is more to safety than hitting a wall at 30mph.
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well when you do, let us all know so we know you are actually talking about something you have some knowledge about.
Oh I have crashed a laguna, so I do.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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So one reported incident of a pedal breaking. Hardly representative is it? If there was a problem with this set up then I am sure it would have come to light in a big way, given the number of Lagunas on the roads.
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Koreans build better cars than Renault? 'Better' is rather a vague term. Possibly in terms of reliability. Possibly not in terms of safety. Eight cars five stars NCAP5.
I don't plan on having an accident - although I'd like a car reliable enough to stay on the road long enough to give me the chance! Looking at the poor build quality on my girlfriend's Clio, I really do wonder how the NCAP scores are so good for Renaults. Put it this way - I'd buy a Getz over a Clio any day.
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Clio is a fine car. Do you have any specific basis for this conclusion??
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Clio is a fine car. Do you have any specific basis for this conclusion??
MY basis would be that have driven one,, and looked it over.
Its a fine car.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Its a fine car.
The DCi engine is awful (and it's not just me, the Top Gear road-test found exactly the same irritating things as I find when I drive the Clio - lurching, jolting, lack of immediate power), the plastics are cheap (on a par with Kia), and everything's been screwed together by Stevie Wonder, using only his bare hands. The handling would be fine if not for the horrible electric power steering, which provides dreadful fake feedback, and no power assistance at all for low-speed manoeuvres.
Yes. Fine car. If that's the rubbish you're used to. It's a shame Nissan's going down the same route - how long before Toyota, Honda and the other high-quality marques are dragged down?
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Yes. Fine car. If that's the rubbish you're used to. >>
Utter carp, the new Clio is a good car, the fit and finish are on par with the best and the 1.5 DCi is probably the best small diesel. Not much wrong with the previous model either but for lack of rear leg room, fine engines and well put together. We have a '98 RXE (one of the first of the MK IIs) we have owned it since it had only 4000 miles on the clock, it has been virtually faultless, still drives as new, the interior is very well finished and despite the attention of three kids still scrubs up as new as does the exterior but for a few too many dings courtesy of Tescos car park.
Even TVM would admit that the Laguna II has had its problems and accordingly perhaps Renault's reputation has suffered however there is/was not much wrong with the Clio.
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Utter carp, the new Clio is a good car
Having never driven the new model, I can't comment. I just hope it's a better car than the last one.
the fit and finish are on par with the best
You are joking surely? The interior door trim doesn't line up, in fact the bloke who recently repaired a dent did a better job at lining it up and bolting it together than the Renault factory managed. The interior carpet is dreadful quality, the seats are hard and unsupportive. I could go on all day, but basically I don't expect rattles and threadbare carpet in a 3y/o vehicle, particularly as they weren't present in my 16y/o Nissan.
1.5 DCi is probably the best small diesel.
Rubbish. It's very economical, and fairly torquey, but it's as rough as they come, especially cold-starting. There are also problems with sticky EGR valves. Furthermore it uses Delphi CR injection, so it'll very likely go pop one day, and cost thousands to fix. I'd rather have a VAG unit with PD injection. The Fiat/GM Multijet is also better IMO.
Maybe we'll agree to disagree on this one, but Renault build quality is nowhere near the best.
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Furthermore it uses Delphi CR injection, so it'll very likely go pop one day, and cost thousands to fix. I'd rather have a VAG unit with PD injection. >>
Carp again, despite Aprilia commenting the the Delphi elec connectors are not as good as Denso there is no evidence that Delphi systems are less reliable than others. the PD system is illogical, particularly on a belt cam engine, VAG are going common rail on their V engines, fours sure to follow suit.
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Carp again, despite Aprilia commenting the the Delphi elec connectors are not as good as Denso there is no evidence that Delphi systems are less reliable than others.
IMO, the only inherent problem with CR is that it's built down to a price - if Ford put different systems in Jags than Fords (which I believe they do), isn't that an admission that low-price CR systems aren't very good? Besides, the technology is just phenominal - 1500 bar in a fuel rail? That's hundreds of times higher than petrol injection.
Anyway, diesel injection aside, Renaults aren't as good as Nissans.
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if Ford put different systems in Jags than Fords (which I believe they do), isn't that an admission that low-price CR systems aren't very good? >>
No, the X-Type engines are the same as the Mondeo, the S-Type 2.7 is not (yet) available in a Ford.
Anyway, diesel injection aside, Renaults aren't as good as Nissans.
Renaults are chic and characterful where Nissans are antiseptic and boring though they are going the right way, a fair bit more Renault influence and I might actually like a Nissan.
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Maybe we'll agree to disagree on this one, but Renault build quality is nowhere near the best.
My comments relate to a Mégane, but I would have to agree.
I took delivery of a company owned 2005 Mégane 1.5 dCi 108PS last year which I had for three months before I moved jobs.
Although I really liked the car in many ways (lively, refined, comfortable, well specced), the build quality of the car was dreadful:
Petrol cap cover a totally different shade of blue to the rest of the car.
Tailgate to C-pillar gap twice the size on the left as on the right.
Bonnet to headlight gap twice the size on the right as the left.
Brittle, pound shop plastic everywhere inside. Heater controls and seat adjusters felt like they'd snap if not treated with kid gloves.
Centre console creaked
Perceptible wear on the drivers door arm rest and seat squab after 3 months and 10,000 miles.
It would put me off buying another Renault unless they made huge strides. Liked the engine though - no complaints. Beat my previous 1.8 TDDI Focus unit in every respect (refinement, power, performance, flexibility, economy and vibration). Obviously 10,000 miles is not enough to comment on reliability though.
Cheers
DP
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I suspect the NCAP rating is related to the structural rigidity rather than fit and finish of trim etc. The new Clio is a far better built car than the previous sahpe IMO. Sadly one consequence of this has been the weight has gone up, making it less nimble to drive, unless one gets the 197 of course...
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With a bombshell of Nissan pulling out of yet another sector and not replacing discontinued Primera this year with any other model it seems both companies clearly devided customer base between each other - trucks, SUVs, 4WDs for Nissan, small, mid and large passenger cars for Renault. Both companies still overlap in commercial sector and the unwanted, unpopular, unneeded mini MPV/ half fruity shopping cart, half midivan "we made Note because Modus was such a best seller, innit" how-to-loose money sector.
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Isn't this split in product line going to be a big problem for Nissan when the EU start bleating about getting average CO2 down to 140g/km?
Renault may do it, thanks to lots of Clios sold, but will Nissan even come close with all the 350Zs, Patrols, Pathfinders etc etc?
Whether the EU have any teeth on this matter is another thing entirely...
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I think there's some talking at cross purposes going on. You can't compared Clio 3 with the previous model - a massive improvement in quality has occured. I've read that the interior trim is on a par with Audi. Possibly a bit OTT as a comparision but certainly as good as VW.
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With a bombshell of Nissan pulling out of yet another sector and not replacing discontinued Primera this year
Bombshell? Hardly. The latest primera was pig ugly and sales were a disaster
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Bombshell? Hardly. The latest primera was pig ugly and sales were a disaster
I ugree, it was ugly. "Bombshell" because Nissan has enough models (not too bad looking as well) to replace the whole range immediately - Versa or Tiida/Latio to replace Almera, new Sentra, Altima or Maxima(Teana) to take back by sturm its long lost space in hearts of minicab drivers. All of them are fresh, redesigned, ready to roll and already in production. Withdrawal from the sector just because previous models were horribly unattractive is just silly - I would bet my Almera that if Nissan stuck "Primera" badge on Japanese spec Fuga and paired it with its diesel engines it would easily outsell the notorious Laguna in UK.
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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How about this as a Primera alternative?? I like it.
press.nissan-global.com/COMMON/IMAGES/REPORT/SYLPH...g
A proper Nissan perhaps.
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Interesting. This is a Bluebird Sylphy. And of course before the Primera name they used the Bluebird name over here. So could this actually be the new "Primera"?
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I do wonder about people's impression of what "build quality" is.
Is it the shut lines? If so, you should have seen the so-called well-built new Mini on last week's Fifth Gear. The chrome strips on the door panels missed the line set by the rear window by a good half-inch. If that's good build quality I despair.
Is it durability? My 13 year old Nissan, with 130,000 on the clock, is as it came out of the showroom, with not a rattle or creak anywhere. I've been in old Astras, Escorts, Meganes, all of which rattle and squeak their way down the road. So much for that.
As for the Clio, the new one looks OK, but the old one? Hmmm. Hard plastics everywhere (no better than a Korean car, I don't care what you say), the centre console moves when you push it with your hand, and the 1.6 auto I drove was like a sloth -- the 1.3 manual Accent feels faster, and that's a bigger car with a smaller engine. I wasn't overly impressed with the drive either, it was alright, but nothing like the "characterful" drive I was led to believe. The steering felt flat, the handling was decent but totally unremarkable and the engine wasn't that quiet either -- I expect my cheap Korean cr@pheap to be noisy, but this thing was just as bad -- indeed it's actually noisier from outside the car.
I have to say that the current Primera fails to impress me -- the plastics are far worse than any Korean car, flexing everywhere and ill-fitting gaps between parts of the dashboard.
To my mind interior build quality comes down to how likely something is likely to snap off. I don't care about soft-touch feeling coverings to things (which can be produced for pennies if the manufacturer puts their mind to it), but many cars' dashboards have parts where you can get hold of bits and flex the plastics around. Hyundais and older Nissans exhibit none of this. Vauxhalls, newer Nissans (under Renault control) and Hondas, surprisingly, are terrible for it.
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As for which Nissans are true Nissan designs and which are Renault castoffs, a not-completely-reliable rule of thumb (will work in most cases) is to look at where the fuel filler cap and exhaust are located. If it's a Nissan, these will be fuel filler on passenger side, exhaust towards the driver side. If it's a Renault, being a LHD-conversion, this will be reversed.
So, by selecting the former, and avoiding the dCi engine, you'll minimise the Renault influence, if that's your aim.
Of course you could just ignore this and buy a proper Japanese car instead, rather than a French car pretending to be Japanese.
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jase1, I agree with every word you've said. The old-model Clio was over-rated, with typical hit-and-miss French build-quality, and I don't find it any better to drive than an Almera - in fact the manual gearbox is significantly worse - it just flops in and out of gear, and I don't like the electric fakeness of the PAS.
Renault autoboxes are always dreadful, so I wouldn't hold that against the Clio. If it had more than 40k on the clock the autobox probably wanted a rebuild! Hopefully current automatic Renaults have Jatco boxes, if anything good has come of the merger!
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How about this as a Primera alternative?? I like it. press.nissan-global.com/COMMON/IMAGES/REPORT/SYLPH...g A proper Nissan perhaps.
That is very similar to the current Kia Magentis. Not a bad looking car, and if it's Nissan-engineered could be a goodun.
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Spoke to Nissan guys while dropping off Almera and picking up Primera today and apparently they expect Versa Sedan ito go on sale in UK next year:
( www.nissannews.com/multimedia/nissan2007/800px/07_...g )
Apparently Versa is a Tiida offspring, built on B platform, same as Clio (Renault fans will confirm if that's correct). So, no more Primeras, no more Almeras but they are back to Sunny/Almera sized saloons...
There are also rumours of Nissan introducing Infinity brand in Europe next year.
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Interestingly, Nissan still seem to have kept their reputation up in Japan and the USA.
Seems Renault-Nissan know their customers well.
In Japan and the USA, reliability is king. They won't put up with Renault-level problems but are happy to sacrifice a little style for solidity.
In Europe the reverse is true. People tend not to be so bothered about cars going wrong, as long as they look pretty and drive well.
So, base your US/Japanese cars on mainly Nissan parts, and Euro stuff on Renaults. Job's a good'un.
Except that unfortunately for Nissan, while the quality has gone down, the style hasn't gone up. Doh.
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As a former Nissan Micra (1996 N-reg) owner, I noticed over the eight years I owned it that the build quality of the courtesy cars dipped quite a bit from about 2000 onwards - notably inferior trim quality (cheaper, thinner plastics and seat coverings) and external bodywork. Over the years, colleagues of mine have had several problems with their Renaults, however most serious problems seem to occur on the larger models (probably more fancy gadgets to go wrong).
In my opinion the Japanese manufacturers tend to release the'newer technology' a bit later than the Europeans (in particular the French) to give it time to be [perhaps] more thoroughly tested. Still, I'd rather have reliability first, then styling (though why not have both!) - who cares what the car looks like when its broken down at the side of the road (other motorists laughing at you as they pass) or in the workshop [again].
I found it shame that when I was looking for a new car earlier this year, I couldn't consider a Nissan (Almera) due to the fall in quality. Needless to say, I still chose Japanese (Mazda 3 4dr), which I am very happy with (including the styling - thanks HJ for the advise) - no problems so far!
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8< SNIP
Maybe one day you will read and absorb the warning!
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=33415
DD
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I've seen the Versa on adverts on US TV and to be honest it doesn't look too bad.
Can't see how it could be based on the Clio platform -- it's bigger than a Focus!
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I've seen the Versa on adverts on US TV and to be honest it doesn't look too bad. Can't see how it could be based on the Clio platform -- it's bigger than a Focus!
B platform is apparently rubbery versatile and stretchable - it's used by Micra, Cube, Clio III, Note, Modus, Tiida, Versa and even by some unnamed, Note based 7 seater MPV for japanese market...
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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The quality of other Japanese cars is always good, is it?
I recently took a look at a 3 year old Avensis automatic, at Available Car and I was thoroughly put of with the way that the upholstery on the seats had worn so badly. There was a big crease and a tear in the fabric on the drivers seat, plus all of the seats were badly discoloured. The car had covered less than 50K miles.
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The quality of other Japanese cars is always good, is it? I recently took a look at a 3 year old Avensis automatic, at Available Car and I was thoroughly put of with the way that the upholstery on the seats had worn so badly. There was a big crease and a tear in the fabric on the drivers seat, plus all of the seats were badly discoloured. The car had covered less than 50K miles.
Purely a function of how well it's been looked after. I'm sure I could wear out a BMW seat in 5000 miles if I put my mind to it.
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Agreed - you have no idea how it's been treated in that time.
Obvioulsy very badly by reading the comments made.
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Just remember Nissan were once Datsun!!
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Just remember Nissan were once Datsun!!
Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Cars like the 120Y were several orders of magnitude more reliable than any European cars at the time.
Thousands of them still going in parts of the world where rust isn't a problem.
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"Thousands of them still going"
Just like Renault 4s of the same vintage in France then?
--
Phil
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How many Renault 5s are still on the streets? Quite a few Nissan Micras (of the same 1980s crop) still kicking around.
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Just wait for Ghosn to crack the whip.
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"Thousands of them still going" Just like Renault 4s of the same vintage in France then? -- Phil
Don't get me wrong, Renaults (and Peugeots) of the 70s were probably as good as European cars got -- which makes it a shame that they've slipped over the years. All I was saying was that the Datsun reference is no bad thing -- the old Dats were extremely well engineered for the time, soooooo much better than the Fords, Vauxhalls, BLs, Fiats........
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Maybe we just live in a country where pretty rubbish is more saleable than well-engineered boringness! To me, a car is like a fridge - it's an appliance that you buy to be reliable, and get the job done with little fuss.
Jase1 talks sense! If the European range of Nissans were released in Australia or the USA, it would finish off the "Nissan" brand overnight. Over there they don't put up with problems as we do, and they don't have this anti-Korean thing that we do. Hence the Getz is one of Australia's best-selling small cars, and Renauls/Fiats are almost unheard of.
The underlying problem with French cars is that the domestic market is influenced by patriotism rather than the quality of the product. Hence, they make rubbish, sell it to us as a cultural "va va voom" experience, and we're happy to break down every few months just because the car looks pretty.
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Purely a function of how well it's been looked after. I'm sure I could wear out a BMW seat in 5000 miles if I put my mind to it.
So, how do you determine what has worn well and what hasn't? If it had been a French car the general reaction would almost certainly be that the cause of the wear was down to inferior materials.
I have seen wear marks on cars that are less than a year old and which have covered only a few thousand miles. An example is my wife's Swift, which was 10 months old with less than 5K miles, and yet it has a large wear mark on the back of the front passenger seat.
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If it had been a French car the general reaction would almost certainly be that the cause of the wear was down to inferior materials.
Not from me it wouldn't. My problem with French cars is reliability, not build, and especially the electrical gadgetry which they tend to load their cars with, and which unfortunately they're not very good at. Build-wise not much wrong with them.
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I have to compare notes with my own cars.
My Accent is 5 years old and has covered about 60,000 miles. There is no obvious signs of wear anywhere in the interior, except a small scuff on one of the doors where I dropped a computer monitor against it. It would probably come out if I could be bothered to sort it out.
I find it very hard to believe that Hyundai are producing better quality interiors than Toyota. Given that this cheap car has aged well, I can only conclude that those which haven't are either (a) inferior to Hyundai (unlikely I'm sure you'll agree for most brands) or (b) not looked after. What other reason could there be?
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