Thankfully, this isn't for me. I couldn't think or worse requirements but I'm asking for a mate.
He's interested in the Vectra. Doesn't want a Mondeo because his Dad has one (madness!) and the Astra seems out of his price range.
No VW's, anything French or any other Fords. I've got him onto the Skoda Superb (doesn't like the old Octavia).
Apart from the fact that spending so little on such precise and delicate technology is doomed to fail, does anyone have any advice? Like I say - the Vectra's still in the running, as would any other decent diesel. Much as I've tried to dissuade him from it, he's adamant that a diesel is economical no matter how many miles you do and there's no changing that opinion.
Any help, suggestions or advice would be appreciated,
Adam
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I think I'd try hypnosis or aversion therapy. Please save him!
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I'm afraid all is lost Nick! He already drives a Brava - there's no saving him!
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All we can do is pray for a lost soul.
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He's maybe not as daft as some think. The Skoda Superb is an old version VW Passat in drag with a long wheelbase, which gives it loads of rear legroom. At his budget, he would probably not get folding rear seats (later models only). With a VW PD engine and a galvanised body it's a cracking bargain, easily fixed by a VW independent - nobody wants them.
659.
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The implication of some of the posts above seems to be that a 3-4 year old diesel is a risky proposition. Is that right?
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I was just implying that a 6 grand common rail was a risky proposition.
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Peter,
Distilling the zeitgeist I think what is being said is that common rail technology is complex and not proven in terms of longevity.
As opposed to the old turbo diesels which are so agricultural they run forever and can be fixed by blacksmiths.
Also agree with the consensus the Superb has to be one of the bargains of the moment.
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"common rail technology is complex and not proven in terms of longevity."
Haven't trucks been using it for years and won't some of them have done incredible mileages? (I realise that cars don't use the same engine, but technology must be similar???)
Our CR diesel is 6 years old, has done 90k so far with no probs - must be a fair few out ther that have done far higher mileages - how about taxis???
Are CR really that "unproven"
Just asking!!
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Phil
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Phil,
I think it's quite a complex area. Yes, there are lots of CR diesels that have an acceptably long life. For the few that do have problems, these problems are truly wallet emptying, and as a result, everyone hears about them. In a way, this phenomenon is testament to the good reliabilty of the typical indirect injection / rotary pump / turbo diesels that were common in the mid to late 1990's.
Yes, trucks have used CR like technology for years - but, the systems are operating at much lower pressures - hence stresses - and the longer life which is required for a commercial vehicle is more readily obtained. As even routine work on HGVs is wallet emptying, common rail failures don't attract much attention.
Similarly, the HGV equivalent of PD engines have also been made since the 1940's, again with lower stress and high reliability - except for pre-1970's Cummins engine pushrod failures.
Number_Cruncher
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He could stick with Fiat, and get a Stilo JTD(!!) Hyundai have a good CR diesel engine in the Elantra, but if he's remotely bothered about image, that's out the window too. How anyone who drives a Fiat Brava can turn down a Mondeo is beyond me.
How about............an Almera! (I'm sure Adam expected nothing less...) There's a decent 2.2 diesel that's not Renault-related, but I don't know if he'd get one within budget. ;-)
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He likes the Stilo Greg! Only thing is, his Brava is falling to pieces (it's a 2001 model) so he's not enamoured with Fiats. He has my (perhaps blinkered) views on Hyundais and stuff. I'm just about warming to them but he doesn't have the insight of this forum so what chance does he have?! ;-)
I dutifully suggested an Almera to him and you really don't want to hear his reply mate!
It's funny - image is relatively important and yet he's considering a Vectra. ;-)
Make your own mind up!
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Common-rail is a new technology. It was invented/discovered by NipponDenso who produced truck and bus CR systems in 1996. Marelli (in Italy) developed car systems around the same time and they were launched in '98 MY cars. So it only has an 8 year history in cars. The truck systems are of a vastly higher quality than the car systems - the latter being made down to a price, which is the problem really.
Marelli sold their CR technology to Bosch.
The Bosch and Delphi systems are similar.
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Thanks for your replies Number cruncher and Aprilia - informative. It's just that I remember being warned off a turbo diesel when I came to replace my original A reg BX which had done 170k faultlessly. "Turbos are unreliable - too much to go wrong, if turbo fails it will cost an arm and a leg" etc was the gist, so I bought another normally aspirated BX - 150 k faultless.
At the same time a friend bought a turbo BX at auction, hammered it for 200k without so much as a clean let alone a service (might have had a new cambelt but I'm not sure!) and that was faultless - so I just wondered if the "Common fail" stories were a bit of the same "scaremongering" .
Cheers
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Phil
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He likes the Stilo Greg!
Please don't let him buy one! Only a few months ago I witness a parked Stilo spontaneously combust outside its owner's house - not a pretty sight.
I dutifully suggested an Almera to him and you really don't want to hear his reply mate!
Pah! Slghtly more reliable than a Fiat. Maybe he's one of those who think cars that break down a lot have "character".
It's funny - image is relatively important and yet he's considering a Vectra. ;-)
I'll attempt to comment, although my position in the world as an Almera driver limits my ability to talk about image. The Vectra isn't a bad choice if it's a diesel, but the image it conveys to me, and perhaps most drivers, is "sales rep". Likewise the image a Fiat of any description conveys is "hire purchase, couldn't quite afford a decent car". Having said that, the diesel engines aren't bad, and GM are putting the multijets in Vauxhalls, branded as CDTi.
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He has my (perhaps blinkered) views on Hyundais and stuff. I'm just about warming to them but he doesn't have the insight of this forum so what chance does he have?! ;-)
That seems to me to be a real pity. Hyundai/Kia diesels seem to be the great underrated bargain of the moment. No history of early failure (and with the number of Accent diesels around here being used as taxis I'd know about it if they were unstable!!) and dirt cheap/reliable.
Sounds to me like your best bet is just to let him make his own mistakes -- it'll only come back to haunt you. Out of interest how many miles does he do?
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Six Grand ?
if he turns up before next saturdaym he can have mine !
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Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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So this tortured genius doesn't want a VW (though why not if he'd be happy with a Skoda?), a Ford, a Fiat or anything French. Not much left apart from Vauxhalls or something Japanese.
There is almost certainly a bigger choice of Vectras or Astras so maybe don't dissuade him. If he looks carefully he should be able to get a good one, and parts and repairers are plentiful.
What about a saloon? - you would have a fellow-traveller then.
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I've just noticed from your original post Adam - he really is a tortured genius if he thinks he can afford a Vectra but not an Astra.....???? Taking that logic further perhaps he should go for a Vectra-in-drag - a pukka Saab.
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I *might* have got him to consider some petrols.
When asked what mileage he did he said "not many - but I might do more...you never know".
In terms of image, he's exactly like me - don't worry - he doesn't like brown Focus Saloons - but as long as he likes the car, that's all that matters so the overall image of the car isn't that important providing he likes it. So Vectras are still in!
With regards to Skoda Vs VW, crazy as it sounds, but I'm the same. I don't like VW's in general. My mate has a new Golf and it's boring. My neighbour a Bora - Boring. My auntie a Passat and it looks nice outside but the cabin is dire. Not to mention the faults. For some reason, everyone I know with a Skoda loves them - they've been reliable and I couldn't begin to tell you why, but I prefer them over VW's! Crazy I know! He's on about the new 3dr Astra vs the new (C anyway) Vectra. Believe it or not, you do seem to get more for your money with the Veccy. I'd probably take the Vectra over the Astra too.
I did think Saab but I just automatically assume you'd pay more for the Saab than the Vectra - and they're the same car.
Mike - purely out of interest, how many miles has yours done? And what are you replacing it with?
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For that money you could get a nice non CR diesel, go for a 2.0 or 2.2 direct inj Dti Vectra, they have pilot injection now and although still a bit noisy on start up, alot smoother than the old vectra b.
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Mike - purely out of interest, how many miles has yours done? And what are you replacing it with?
It rolled over 70,000 last week, and it's going because work are giving me a ...........
Renault Megane !!!
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Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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A development - he's found a Laurin and Klement Octavia about an hour away.
users.autoexposure.co.uk/classicdd.cfm?Account=AET...s
Looks really nice! I'm pestering him to go and have a look at it this week but whether he will or not I don't know.
I'll let you know what happens,
Adam
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every car on that garage's website seems to be quite overpriced for its age / mileage.
surely there must be better value elsewhere..........
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I wouldn't even pay that from a Skoda dealer. Should be a good £1k less than advertised. If they'll budge to £6300 it wouldn't be too bad, because of the low mileage.
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Nice car, but he'll get the same spec (maybe with rather comfy cloth instead of leather) in a Superb, and should get one for similar money. The interior of the Superb is better finished, and there's more cabin space than he'll know what to do with.
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45,500 miles isn't all that low for an 02-registered car. I'd agree that it's way overpriced. The dealer is trying to get the new-car premium for a Laurin & Klement back from the unsuspectibg buyer: the extras are mainly cosmetic and aren't worth it.
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How about taking him to an auction? Lots of nearly new ex-fleet diesels with full history going through - he's bound to see something he likes for a decent price.
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I'll pass on your comment when I see him tomorrow.
With regards to auction Greg - I'd probably try it myself but I wouldn't want to push someone into it. Should something go wrong (there's no reason why it should but it could do), then I'd feel partly responsible.
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Well - we went looking at it.
I can't give you any more details yet as I don't want to scupper an amazing deal should, however unlikely, someone reads this.
Suffice it to say, I'm absolutely amazed to the point of collapsing. I'll update you in the next few days.
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Well - the Laurin and Klement has been bought for the full price asking price. He didn't want to negotiate because they offered him such a good deal part ex on his Brava. (Nearly 1000 quid!!!) It's getting MOT'd and serviced as part of the deal too.
Quite impressed with it from a kit point of view but a bit bored performance wise (that's just me and my dislike of diesels though!) but he loves it which is the main thing.
The dealer said they wouldn't accept Lagunas and Bravas in part ex but seeing as his was in such good condition they'd offer him book price of 900 quid so looks like a good result all round.
On behalf of me and my mate, thanks very much!
Adam
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I'm glad he's happy, but he's paid well over the odds for the car, regardless of what he got in px.
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He'd have been able to get an Elegance for £1k less, and I'd be just as happy with that, but if he wanted an L&K I think he did fine, and the p/x was very generous so whilst it's hardly the deal of the century, it's not like they've seen him coming.
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He's very different to me. I told him to haggle but he said because he'd been offered part ex, he was more than happy with the deal.
He wasn't set on a Laurin and Klement - it was just coincidence. In fact, he wasn't sure about the bright leather interior and started looking at Elegances but he changed his mind when he saw the black centre console.
He picks it up on Wednesday so I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks for your help,
Adam
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ight leather interior - nor me.....
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I'm sure the leather looked ok once: on a cow...
For me it just invites scuffs and tears...
madf
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If it was the colour of mine it would look fine but it's tan coloured.
50k miles and the seats look immaculate though - hopefully they'll last equally as long again.
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The picture wasn't very flattering, passanger seat seems to have darkened - probably the photo. Still........
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The seat bases are suede or alacantara - call it what you will but that explains the dark patch. If you rub your hand over it the other way it would change colour back to normal!
It's a lot more vivid in real life...very....tan coloured!
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Alacantara? Isn't that a place?
Alacantra of course.
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"but he's paid well over the odds for the car,"
He's got a car he wants, at a price he was willing to pay and with a PX he was happy with. He's a happy chappy - makes it a good deal to him whatever we say. Good luck to him - hope he enjoys his "new" car!
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Phil
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He's made up Phil. I am for him too as it's a massive step up from the Brava.
He said he wasn't fussed about toys before we went but when I pointed the heated seat switches out to him I think he was sold ;-)
Definitely suits him and as you say, as long as he likes it, good luck to him. It's a nice looking car I've got to admit. If they did a nice V6 I'd certainly consider one!
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"a nice V6 "
Would that be diesel or petrol Adam?? ;-)
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Phil
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What do you think Phillip?!
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