Structural rot does seem to be less of a problem than before, although if your around enough modern cars, you will find plenty of cosmetic rust.
Rusty bootlids seem to be quite common on modern cars, usually where the trim has been fitted too tight and rubbed the paint - I saw this on a Jaguar XK8 to my suprise but there appeared to be no impact damage and it was simply a build quality issue.
I have come across several Ford Ka's with rust at the base of the windscreen pillar and also at the bottoms of the doors.
I cleaned a Mazda MX-5, about 4 years old, and it had rust in the doorshuts, bubble on rear arch and the sills had surface corrosion.
Rust is better protected against, but not a thing of the past.
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agree with stuart im minting a mk5 fiasco today and its got the usual ford disease
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My current Omega is 11 and a bit years old, rust is just starting to appear around the top of the rear doors. Nothing structual though, this does indded seem to be a thing of the past.
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Rust is, for the most part, a thing of the past in practical terms. I doubt many cars get scrapped these days due to rust, it will be a failed ABS unit, snapped cambelt or something else equally simple but ridiculously expensive to fix. This is a trend that can only get more wide spread. I was looking at my Renault the other day and counting all the air bags and curtains it's got - ten IIRC. One day they will need replacing? I doubt it, it would cost more than the car is worth.
Rusty french cars are a thing of the past, these days a french car is at least as good as any other and IMO better than some for rust.
Mine is three years old and there's not one spot of rust anywhere. Might be something to do with all the plastic panels though :-)
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Superminis will always rust* but bigger cars seem to be much better these days.
*Although my Peugeot was galvanised, so the tinworm won't see that off. I don't think that really counts as a supermini though.
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Fords haven't managed to eradicate it. I have seen rusty Ka's (very rusty), Pumas, Mondeos and Focii. Saw quite a rusty Mondeo on a 52 plate actually.
K11 Micras can be bad for rust, as can 5-year-old Mercedes - and it can be structural. Was behind a rusty E39 BMW on Sunday - rust on the external corner above the numberplate and around the lock barrel. Its not as bad as it was years back, when the top strut mount would pop up through the inner wing and Escort batteries would fall into the glovebox - but its not a thing of the past yet. Also amazes me to see scabby brake pipes on quite recent stuff - inc. prestige cars like Merc and BMW. There is really no excuse for that.
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Bashing at the underside of my 12-year-old Escort with his little hammer for rather a long time yesterday, the MoT man managed to open a small perforation in the offside sill under the rear door. Won't cost much. Other than that, the n/s lower front balljoint needs replacing (I've heard it clicking for some time now and can also feel it through the steering although the effect is very slight) and when the engine cooling fan cut in during the emission test it made a noise like Armageddon. It's always been a bit noisy - out of balance - but this time it's terminal. I imagine that will be the most expensive replacement part. And three little bulbs are needed. Oh, and the front passenger door doesn't open from the outside.
Is my bargain jalopy starting to get expensive? I reckon this will be its last MoT. Next year, a pogo stick.
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I've got a couple of 205s (well one belongs to the other half), one is 17 years old, the other 15. Neither have any rust on them, except the older one gets a little bit on the bottom corner of the driver's door where it has had the odd scrape on the pavement. Even then the rust doesn't spread or eat through. There's a little bit on the battery tray, but that's easily sorted and a removable (4 bolts) item, so doesn't really affect the main body.
Peugeot certainly got their rust proofing or metal compound correct all those years ago.
Don't forget modern exhausts still seem to rust through as fast (fuel type and driving conditions permitted).
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Don't forget modern exhausts still seem to rust through as fast
Faster if anything. Catalytic convertors are the reason - hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide get converted into water and carbon dioxide. Exhausts and moisture don't mix.
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>> Don't forget modern exhausts still seem to rust through as fast. Faster if anything. Catalytic convertors are the reason - hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide get converted into water and carbon dioxide. Exhausts and moisture don't mix.
Would the answer be to invest in a stainless steel exhaust as soon as the original packs up, in order to get the best value from it during the remaining life of the car?
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>> Don't forget modern exhausts still seem to rust through as fast Faster if anything. Catalytic convertors are the reason - hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide get converted into water and carbon dioxide. Exhausts and moisture don't mix.
I think it depends on the make. I've just sold my old 2000 Subaru with 123k on the clock and it had the original exhaust including backbox and the original battery. I live within spitting distance of the sea too.
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Was at a car auction a few months ago, and the most revolting rattly old rot-box went through, and guess what it was - a 1996 Ford Ka.
The last time I saw rust like that was on an old Sierra. It was absolutely covered, one door had a hole in. The sills were completely gone, it was scrapheap material....it is for that reason I refuse to buy Fords. If just about every other manufacturer can stop their cars from rusting, why can't Ford? A ten-year old car should be dying due to mechanical failure, not corrosion.
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I've just scrapped a '94 Seat Ibiza because of rust.
Even though the car had been looked after, and garaged for most of its life, the sills had been welded several times and the undersides of the doors wre all rotten. you didn't need a hammer on this VW masterpiece - it was possible to stick your finger through.
Our '98 Ibiza was a little better - at least in that respect.
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Two and a half years ago I scrapped a 1989 Saab 9000, due to ABS problems and HGF (at 198k miles). The bodywork was immaculate, only one small spot of rust where a door had been scratched.
My current 1999 Saab 9-3 has a small patch of bubbled paint on a rear wheelarch, about the size of a 20p piece. I only noticed it a few months ago, its on a seam between two panels, and has had a load of road muck packed in behind it. The 6 year anti corrosion warranty ran out last year, but I missed the last inspection anyway so its my own fault. I feel like bodging something on it myself, but I suppose I ought to get it professionally sorted. Last time I tried to deal with some rust on a Mk3 Golf front wing I made a right mess of it!
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If just about every other manufacturer can stop their cars from rusting, why can't Ford?
OK - someone answer that.
Ford, being a very big company, must have a huge R&D budget.
And their vehicles have had a bad reputation for rust for quite a while, which must be of some concern to the top management.
So why have they not done something about it?
(My interest in this subject? see
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=39...6
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Further to my earlier post, I don't think a single small sill perforation in a well-used, seldom-washed, never-polished 12-year-old mass market runabout is bad at all. My Skoda Estelles were worse than that, and they weren't seen as very rust-prone (except by certain posters on this site, leave it out chaps).
Cars in the fifties and sixties were a total disgrace, especially from Ford and Vauxhall. Some models looked as if they were made of brownish Chantilly lace at five years old. Really really awful. Ask oldman, he'll tell you. Those models are as rare as hen's teeth these days, it's a labour of love to keep them in one piece.
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>> If just about every other manufacturer can stop their cars from rusting, why can't Ford? OK - someone answer that.
Well, my 9-year old Mondeo isn't too bad, particularly considering its present role of driving down the narrowest of lanes with vegetation creeping in from the side to scratch it to death. But then, I remember Morris Marinas........ Don't see very many of them about these days! I'd feel a bit cheated if I had to scrap a car with perfect (over-engineered?) bodywork.
An acquaintance is a weld artist - highly skilled at turning sheet metal from old cars into animals. When I asked him what were the best cars to work with, he replied 'the more rust-prone, the better - i.e. any car before 1987 and Italian cars'. This was a couple of years ago, so the Italians may have got their act together by now!
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A friend has a silver Audi 100/A6 (the transition model) and one front wing is falling apart badly with rust. Maybe a non galvanised replacement.
His previous model Audi 100 is still running around Derbyshire with no visible rust.
At one time most of my weekends were spent treating rust and touching up various nasty Minis, Maxis and Marinas. And my Dad's Humber Sceptre and Sunbeam Rapier. Some started rusting before their first birthday.
--
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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The last time I saw rust like that was on an old Sierra. It was absolutely covered, one door had a hole in. The sills were completely gone, it was scrapheap material....it is for that reason I refuse to buy Fords. If just about every other manufacturer can stop their cars from rusting, why can't Ford? A ten-year old car should be dying due to mechanical failure, not corrosion.
Has there been a Ford made yet which hasn't had any trouble with rust? From such a highly regarded car company, I would expect far more. It?s quite simply appalling.
I'm also interested into why Fords still rust quite readily.
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"From such a highly regarded car company,....."
????
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"From such a highly regarded car company,....." ????
Come on X! :-p According to some, Ford can do no wrong. They can bring out a bin of a car and people still buy it. It was some poorly executed sarcasm on my behalf, but if Fords were as good as people make them out to be, they wouldn't rust like they do.
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I thought your comment was quite entertaining. To be fair modern Fords do drive nicely, I have recently test driven the ST 2.2 diesel and was impressed. However these tales of rust will mean that I shall not be placing an order. There is no excuse these days, the French and Italians who possibly had the worst reputation in this area have well and truly knocked the problem on the head - and many years ago.
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They can bring out a bin of a car andpeople still buy it. It was some poorly executed sarcasm on my behalf, but if Fords were as good as people make them out to be, they wouldn't rust like they do.
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Ah, yes, but you have to take price into account as well.
I would say that ford have got it just right - engineering brilliance! The body rots, the clutch fails, the engine falls to pieces - all at about the same time. Entropy and engineering in perfect harmony!What IS the point of being left with a brilliant engine in a rotting body or a rattling engine in a fabulous body???
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I would say that ford have got it just right - engineering brilliance! The body rots, the clutch fails, the engine falls to pieces - all at about the same time. Entropy and engineering in perfect harmony!What IS the point of being left with a brilliant engine in a rotting body or a rattling engine in a fabulous body???
The thing is that Ford engines fall to bits even earlier than the bodywork! Any Ka with the old pushrod engine will sound like a 2CV unless someone who knows about tappet adjustment has been under the bonnet. My Nissan probably wouldn't sound that bad even if I decided never to service it again.
Every old fiesta I've seen which hasn't yet fallen to bits with rust has had clouds of oily blue smoke coming out the back. Not a great advert for durability. Compare that to a Japanese car of the same vintage - my old Sunny was 16 years old, and still didn't use any oil between changes. Was also on the original head-gasket.
How many stories do we hear about head gasket failures on Ford Duratorque diesels in 2-year-old Mondeos? Too many for me to buy one!
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Any Ka with the old pushrod engine willsound like a 2CV unless someone who knows about tappet adjustment has been under the bonnet.
Good God. Words fail me.
Are you seriously suggesting that there are people running cars with adjustable valve clearances whose garages don't know about tappet adjustment?
It's true they don't usually bother unless asked. They never did. But what prevents people from doing it themselves (except with silly shim systems a la Alfasud which are a bit of a PITA)?
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Are you seriously suggesting that there are people running cars with adjustable valve clearances whose garages don't know about tappet adjustment?
Well there's an awful lot of rattly horrible Fords around. The point is that most well-designed engines don't sound so tappety after only 6 years of use, yet you still hear W-reg ford KAs that sound like someone's shaking buckets of nails under the bonnet.
My W-reg Almera purrs, as did my 16 year-old G-reg Sunny before the carburettor (yes, carburettor!) wore out. In the few years I owned it, I never even had the rocker cover off. The emissions were also WELL below the required level when I had it MOTd. It had 2 or 3 little rust-scabs, all of which were superficial.
Anyone would think that one of the world's biggest motor manufacturers would be out of its mind making cars that simply drop to bits mechanically and physically after half the lifespan of a decent car. But when there's people who'll buy such cr*p, why should anyone stop making it?
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Are you being serious?
You're comparing all Japanese cars with an old Ford? Your W reg Almera doesn't purr. My T reg Ford doesn't purr. In fact, no engine with four cylinders purrs. Your Almera might run. it might run well. But it runs with an anodyne quality so unique to Japanese cars that I think I'd probably rather have a rusty old Ka than an Almera....well - probably not because you're right - the engine does sound bad. But I've never really seen a Ka that's rusted so bad - in fact, the only Ka I've ever seen with any rust on was my mate's 1998 model where the rear window.....what look like tappets had rusted. But I'll take your word for that. But you're hardly being fair to judge Ford on the Ka alone are you?
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a massive Ford fan. I don't like the new Focus, I don't like the new S-Max, I don't like the new Galaxy, I don't like the new Fiesta, and the Ford Ranger seems pretty stupid when put alongside an L200. (Don't get me started on the Orion we had that thankfully got stolen and burnt out) But I can't read some of the stuff here without commenting.
If we're going to play the "well my car runs great despite being in 4 crashses, blown up and run on orange juice for a year so all of them must be great" card then I (or rather we) have owned a Focus since 1999 and have had a laughably small amount of problems. Other Focuses have problems though. I've never heard of a single Mondeo ever, not once having HGF. Does that mean none have? No I'm sure they have but I've never seen these stories anywhere that dissuade so many people.
My 1996 Fiesta - that wasn't without it's problems (albeit minor) but the bodywork was fine, the engine was fine (no blue smoke) and unbelieveably, it was still on it's original headgasket. (I could point out here that our 3 year old Peugoet 405 blew it's headgasket but I won't.)
I'm going to make a bold statement now, but in our street there are 13 Fords. 13 - and guess how many "rattle" and are "falling to bits"? None! Amazing! I think I need to sit down for a minute. Sure, there's an N reg 1.8 Diesel which sounds horrifically bad but I think it's meant to sound like that. (It is a diesel).
I'm not trying to say that Fords are great, or Fords don't rust (mine, Mums or 4 of my mates don't but that's irrelevant). But I'm simply trying to dispel this myth that they'll fall to bits as soon as look at them.
Mine's nearly seven with not a squeak, rattle or piece of oxidized metal anyway. Should I start worrying on it's eight birthday?
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Are you being serious?
it might run well. But it runs with an anodyne quality so unique to Japanese cars that I think I'd probably rather have a rusty old Ka than an Almera....
The Japanese cars being 'boring' 'anodyne' etc stuff is very over-used. Who gave us the RX-8, MX-5, GTO, FTO, Imprezza, EVO, VR-4 etc etc? I have a 400+ BHP Skyline GT-R SuperHICAS that would snap your neck if it weren't for the headrests - and it'll outcorner about 98% of cars on the road.
But I've never really seen a Ka that's rusted so bad - in fact, the only Ka I've ever seen with any rust on was my mate's 1998 model where the rear window.....what look like tappets had rusted. But I'll take your word for that. But you're hardly being fair to judge Ford on the Ka alone are you?
You haven't seen many Ka's then. I've seen quite a few with bad sill rust - MoT-fail bad. Also seen in the past 3-4 year old Pumas and Fiestas with surprisingly bad rust under the sills and Fiestas with not much more than a coat of primer underneath (although to be fair the K-11 Micras were bad in this respect too).
Ford currently have a cracking vehicle line-up, but they need to raise their game on paint finish and protection. They're still skimping on it after all these years.
Ford also got it totally wrong putting that old Kent OHV engine in the Ka - it was antiquated in the 1970's, never mind the '90s - that car would have been so much better with a modern engine.
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Ford also got it totally wrong putting that old Kent OHV engine in the Ka - it was antiquated in the 1970's, never mind the '90s - that car would have been so much better with a modern engine.
Later Kas have an OHC engine, also later ones have better protection however it is true to say that the Ka was in 1997 cheap, economical, chic and great fun to drive, you cannot have everything.
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"Ka was in 1997 cheap, economical, chic and great fun to drive,"
Well the one that I hired for a week in 2002 was cheap and economical. It may have been chic if you mean quirky and weird looking but it certainly wasn't great fun to drive. It was reasonable as long as you did less than 50mph but if you went above that it sounded like it was on its last legs. I certainly was not impressed by it although I will say that it was easy to park in the smallest spaces. That would probably have been its main virtue.
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Are you being serious?
Yes.
You're comparing all Japanese cars with an old Ford?
No. I'm comparing the two I have owned with the majority of rusty rattly rotboxes that drive around with a Ford badge on.
>>But I've never really seen a Ka that's rusted so bad
I have - my jaw nearly fell off my face when I saw just how bad it was. It looked like it'd been in the sea.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a massive Ford fan.
Well why are you defending them so fiercely?
If we're going to play the "well my car runs great despite being in 4 crashses, blown up and run on orange juice for a year so all of them must be great"
No, I was just talking about my 16-year old Nissan Sunny. Seen any G-reg Escorts about lately? I haven't.
I'm going to make a bold statement now, but in our street there are 13 Fords. 13 - and guess how many "rattle" and are "falling to bits"? None! Amazing!
And you've inspected the underside of all 13 for rust? Incidentally, are any of them over 10 years old?
I'm not trying to say that Fords are great, or Fords don't rust (mine, Mums or 4 of my mates don't but that's irrelevant). But I'm simply trying to dispel this myth that they'll fall to bits as soon as look at them.
We had a Sierra once. After several new body panels (at 6 years old), a new gearbox (at 7 years old), and so many electrical bits that I'd be here all day listing them, we decided to sell it. Replaced it with a Rover which never went wrong, not even once (the Honda engine might've been the reason).
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An old Sierr.....whatever. Think what you like mate. I cared very little yesterday. I care even less now.
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An old Sierr.....whatever. Think what you like mate. I cared very little yesterday. I care even less now.
You cared until your arguments started looking a bit....erm....rusty ;-)
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You're a funny guy.
Preferable to being a Ford driver
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Yes but you drive a Nissan Almera - your abilty to make such remarks has got to be questioned!
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Yes but you drive a Nissan Almera - your abilty to make such remarks has got to be questioned!
What's wrong with a Nissan Almera exactly?
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That depends. Do you want well informed opinion or pure speculation based on Nissans I sat in 15 years ago?
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Have you ever sat in such a boring, "anodyne" car? I learnt to drive in a Fiesta and I recently drove a Ka whilst my girlfriend's car was being serviced (it had the more modern OHC engine). Not my cup of tea I'm afraid.
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One of the most "anodyne" cars I ever sat in and had the misfortune to drive was an Almera. The Fiesta (mark 4) - not really anything special. Good on the twisties and being my first car, I'll always look back on it fondly. The Ka - that's a bit like a go kart and quite fun as long as it isn't yours. Find it hard to get comfy in though with me being so tall.
The problem with Nissans is that their "normal" cars are pretty boring. Or at least used to be. The same for a lot of Jap cars too. Don't get me wrong, the QX, the Skyline, the 200SX, the 350z even the Primera in a "oh my God what's that?" kind of way are all interesting and good cars. And I'd like an awful lot of them. But Almeras, Primeras, Micras, Yarises (Yari?), Corollas Avensiseseses and the like do nothing for me.
That's me though - I'd take a QX over an Almera in much the same way as I'd take a Scorpio over an Escort. I like big cars and don't really like small cars. It's simple as really.
I would love to continue this but I have the feeling you're taking this to heart much like I was with your comments yesterday. I'd hate for it to get any more personal than it already has so maybe we'd best do the gentlemanly thing and agree to disagree.
Yours in agreement,
Adam
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>>The point is that most well-designed engines don't sound so tappety after only 6 years of use,
If you adjust these engines to be quiet, once they are a bit worn, the tappets are then too tight, and you get other running problems, typically accompanied by a high HC reading.
Once these engines have some miles on them, they should be noisy - I'm always hugely suspicious of one of these or an A series if it is quiet and isn't running right. If this is the case, I usually check the clearances, and *slacken* them a bit if necessary - too many mechanics and DIY owners are a bit too keen when it comes to tappets. It is many times better to have a bit of tappet noise than having a valve that isn't closing properly.
Number_Cruncher
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Once these engines have some miles on them, they should be noisy - I'm always hugely suspicious of one of these or an A series if it is quiet and isn't running right.
NC, well said though, sorry, I have just made the same point before getting to you post.
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It's good to agree with each other at least now and again isn't it!!
;-)
Although lots of people are put off by noisy tappets, they aren't really doing any harm. It isn't as though any engine has ever been scapped for making tappet noise!!
Number_Cruncher
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yet you still hear W-reg ford KAs that sound like someone's shaking buckets of nails under the bonnet.
Push rod engines run wider clearances so are supposed to make more tappet noise, later Kas are OHC.
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Every old fiesta I've seen which hasn't yet fallen to bits with rust has had clouds of oily blue smoke coming out the back. Not a great advert for durability.
I hate getting stuck behind any model of pre-cat Fords (even some post-cat ones stink). They are the worst polluting cars on the roads and are the only reason I ever turn off the air blower. Compare that with most old Japanese cars of the same age - I rarely notice the fumes from them.
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I would say that ford have got it just right - engineering brilliance! The body rots, the clutch fails, the engine falls to pieces - all at about the same time. Entropy and engineering in perfect harmony!What IS the point of being left with a brilliant engine in a rotting body or a rattling engine in a fabulous body???
Judging by a story I heard from "usually reliable sources" in 1968, you may have it exactly right.
At that time, when the government of Ontario (they use a lot of road salt in the winter) was investigating non-corrosive alternatives, Ford was caught offering to subsidise the provincial government in their purchase of conventional, corrosive salt!
I guess the ideal car would have a life span just as you describe - like a NiCad battery - 1.2 volts until seconds before crashing.
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Judging by a story I heard from "usually reliable sources" in 1968, you may have it exactly right. At that time, when the government of Ontario (they use a lot of road salt in the winter) was investigating non-corrosive alternatives, Ford was caught offering to subsidise the provincial government in their purchase of conventional, corrosive salt!
Yeah reckon that comes from the same reliable source as the Roswell alien autopsies and the Moon landing conspiracy theories.
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