T Lucas sums it up for me!
A sad sad day.
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NNNNN TYS
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Nah nah nah nah nah
Told You So
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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So that's the diesel TT confirmed
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The regulations are slanted in favour of diesel by quite some margin. This doesn't really prove anything, plus did you see it?
One word- boring.
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It is motor racing, therefore it is boring! Try Moto GP if you want to see wheeled entertainment. Great race today in Spain, next weekend at Assen and the week after that at Donington.
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Audi's le Mans victory is a tremendous boost for diesel cars (no pun intended). Clearly now the diesel engine is the way ahead in all sectors of the car market. This year's Audi 2 car was only the third ever diesel entry at Le mans - there was last year's Judd-Caterpillar which was doing OK until the gearbox broke and there was one diesel entry in the early 1950's.
Audi's victory could well turn the tide towards diesels in te USA, where the R10 has been winning races in the American 'Le Mans' series.
I don't predict the immediate demise of the petrol engine although I can see companies like VW group, Mercedes and even BMW relegating petrol to the cheapest entry level models.
Will there ever be a diesel Ferrari? Who knows? (where can I buy a conversion kit to fit a Perkins Prima to a Daytona?)
Porsche have said they have no plans to develop any diesels.
And this Audi was apparently amazingly quiet. I've been to le Mans 7 times and some of the cars could do with being a little bit quieter!!
I wonder if Audi or Dr. Rudolf Diesel can do it again next year. McLaren swept the board with their F1's in 1995 ontly to blown away by Porsche the following year. Things can change fast!
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>>>If that means we all end up driving coal burners i'm depressed,what a terrible thought.<<<
We have 2 '94 VWs, one petrol and one TDI diesel - even if it is a bit less smooth at low speeds the diesel is much nicer to drive.
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It's not all about torque, speed and economy. For that reason, you'll always get a top spec petrol option on cars (decent ones anyway).
It's about soul. It's about planting your foot and hearing that wonderful noise just before it hits the limiter!
I should hope that if ever someone at Ferrari suggested a diesel, they would be promptly sacked.
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>>We have 2 '94 VWs, one petrol and one TDI diesel - even if it is a bit less smooth at low speeds the diesel is much nicer to drive.<<
You're not driving the petrol hard enough then ;-)
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1.4 petrol, 1.9 TDI - could have something to do with it!
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Ah yes - being sneaky there aren't you Mr Spud?
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>>I should hope that if ever someone at Ferrari suggested a diesel, they would be promptly sacked.<<
Why, over the years Ferrari have employed mid-engines, fibreglass panels, fuel injection, engines other than V12, colours other than red, bodies other than beautiful, so somewhere in the distant future they might try a diesel!
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>>Ah yes - being sneaky there aren't you Mr Spud?<<
Sorry! But seriously, my Passat TDI is 12 years old, has done 161K miles and the engine just chumbles on and, wonky air mass meter permitting, gives a good whoosh of go when you need it!
Diesel cars have come on a lot since my old donkey left the factory too.
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>>It's about soul. It's about planting your foot and hearing that wonderful noise just before it hits the limiter!
<<
Perhaps it's just me being funny but I've come to prefer the sound of a diesel, even a humble 4 cylinder one, over many petrol engines.
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Because no matter how much money we plough into development, research and engineering, a diesel engine will always sound boring. No matter how quick you're going.
I don't like a lot of Ferraris but I'll openly admit - not one of them is boring.
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These days the V8 sound says to me 'gas guxxler'
Some sixes, especially automatics, sound like upmarket vacuum cleaners.
Subaru flat-4 says 'Chav-alier with a misfire'
It's all a matter of taste.
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Even big diesels still sound like diesels, not even the V6 or V8 diesels sound remotely interesting. Apart from 4 cylinder petrol engines all other varients makes such a unique sound - the silkyness of a beemer straight 6, the rumble of a big V8 or the glorious sound of an air cooled flat six porker.
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Adam I can assure that a 535d at full diesel chat does not sound boring......
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Without wanting to backpedal;
You're slightly different PU in as much that you have a nice looking car and what's more, a nice looking car with a rather large engine.
Even though it's a diesel, it's pretty big which therefore makes up for the fact....almost.
;-)
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but it's quieter at 100 mph than a petrol version ....or so that dreadful Jeremy person would have us believe
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Out of interest, how quick will it go?
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It's not all about torque, speed and economy. For that reason, you'll always get a top spec petrol option on cars (decent ones anyway). It's about soul. It's about planting your foot and hearing that wonderful noise just before it hits the limiter! I should hope that if ever someone at Ferrari suggested a diesel, they would be promptly sacked.
>>
Well said Adam! Agree with every word!
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sorry if its been mentioned but did the winning driver put on a latex glove to fill the diesel tank up before the race? because the stuff stinks and is not an ideal combination with racing car tyres and leaks
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Perhaps they should bring back straight cut gears and crash gearboxes to give vehicles more 'soul'. "musical whining sound..crunch...whine in a different key...crunch...whine in a subtly different key again...crunch...no whine" (direct top, 4 speed, of course!)
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>>Well said Adam! Agree with every word!<<
Thanks! It's not often I hear that.
>>Perhaps they should bring back straight cut gears and crash gearboxes to give vehicles more 'soul'<<
Maybe they should - I double declutch anyway ;-)
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I had a straight six BMW diesel before my current v6 diesel and grew to love the sound, it sounded like a straight six petrol but an octave lower. I think diesels have more soul, like steam trains had/have compared to diesel electric.
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To be honest, some 6's, V8's etc do get the pulse going (Bentley 8-Litre, Triumph TR6 or AC Cobra, Panoz) but, like I said about the crash gearboxes above, times move on.
One of the most amazing engine sounds was, in fact, a diesel - the Foden 2-stroke supercharged sixes (and fours) fitted to a minority of Foden lorries up until the early 70's.
Imagine an un-silenced BMW 6 with a howling supercharger at the same time. These trucks WERE noisy - couldn't have too much silencing or the back pressure would impede the uniflow 2-stroke
process which involved the supercharger blowing an excess of air through the cylinders.
These Foden engines didn't rev particularly high but because they were 2-stroke they sounded like they were doing twice the actual revs compared to a 4-stroke.
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>>Maybe they should - I double declutch anyway ;-)<<
I used to drive lorries with crash gearboxes and so I had to double declutch on those which was satisfying. You knew when you'd got it right and everyone knew when you got it wrong!!
But I gave up doing it on my cars ages ago.
I never got to drive a Foden 2-stroke like I mentioned above. I believe they were very difficult to drive because of the narrow power and torge band and they had 12 speed gearboxes in the days when most heavies made do with 5 or 6 speeds.
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Admittedly I only really do it on fast downchanges.
Not sure I could live with it on trucks! Did the crash boxes have loads of gears back then? Don't current ones now have 16 or something?
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he wont hear you adam he will be death from the engine noise in the cab that ten blankets could quieten
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Admittedly I only really do it on fast downchanges.
Err thats makes them slow downchanges then Adam. you need to learn to heel and toe. (or more accurate with modern pedal layouts - "side of foot" and toe.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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You and your funny old ways RF.
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>>steam trains had/have compared to diesel electric. <<
Not even the good old Deltic with its 2 engines, each with 18 double ended cylinders, 36 pistons, 3 crankshafts and, like the Fodens I was on about, 2-stroke supercharged. Sounds crazy so if you want to know more search the net for a diagram of Napier Deltic engine!!
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I've always thought Formula 1 shoud go to diesels, at least for a few seasons. Now that would speed up development by a bit.
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The one I drove most was a Leyland Super Comet 16 ton Gross that had 6 speeds and a 2-speed rear axle. Actually the crash box was easy to master - you needed to double declutch on UP and DOWN changes except on up changes you didn't blip the revs like on downchanges. Being a low revving engine there was a bit of give, when you just got a slight 'chink' buy if you got in spot on you could change gear with your little finger.
The 2-speed rear axle effectively gave 12 ratios, a bit like on a mountain bike where there are the sprocket gears and chainwheel gears. The Leyland's 2-speed was worked by a plunger button on the gearlever and afforded half-steps in ratios which was useful on long hills with variable gradients.
I drove lorries with synchromesh too but they could be stiff to change - this in the 1970's, mind.
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Re modern lorries. I don't drive HGVs these days though I've kept my licence up 'just in case'. I think crash gearboxes have disappeared from the scene now and the multi-speed types are synchro or, increasingly, what are called 'automated gearboxes' with a clutchless nudge shift - push the lever forward for up, back for down, also usually with an fully automatic mode.
These gearboxes, which are beginning to find their way into cars too, are called automatED rather than automatIC because they employ an automated clutch, spur gears and selectors rather than the torque converter, planetary gears and brake bands of the traditional automatic.
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>Actually the crash box was easy to master
Can I ask a foolish question - what is a 'crash box'?
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Very few of you have had the pleasure to hear a steam train doing what it does best, at speed, and I mean 60 mph plus.
Unfourtunatley most peoples idea of steam is that heard on restored lines where the speeds are limited and the steam train is a beast caged and severely strangled.
Ah the deltic. My old man drove one of those as well, and loved it. It too was hot, smelly and made a terrific noise at speed.
Let face it. Big engine petrol italian beasts, and american gas muscle sound fabulous.
The rest sound pathetic, and are easily beaten on the aural stakes by a diesel
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Let face it. Big engine petrol italian beasts, and american gas muscle sound fabulous. The rest sound pathetic, and are easily beaten on the aural stakes by a diesel
So you think the chugging noise of a diesel is better than an on song scooby or an air cooled 911?
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Re modern lorries. I don't drive HGVs these days though I've kept my licence up 'just in case'. I think crash gearboxes have disappeared from the scene now and the multi-speed types are synchro or, increasingly, what are called 'automated gearboxes' with a clutchless nudge shift - push the lever forward for up, back for down, also usually with an fully automatic mode.
These gearboxes, which are beginning to find their way into cars too, are called automatED rather than automatIC because they employ an automated clutch, spur gears and selectors rather than the torque converter, planetary gears and brake bands of the traditional automatic.
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Now, perhaps I'm becoming too silly here, but one of the most unusual vehicle sounds, again a 2-stroke diesel, albeit a very primative one. The Field Marshall of the 1940's/50's. Massive single cylider engine, massive flywheel. On tickover it rocks back and forth (horizontal, forward facing cylinder) going "num-num-num-num" Moves off with a characteristic screech from the clutch and goes "pot-pot-pot-pot" loudly under load. Eat your heart out Royal Enfield!!
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my vespa sounded better than a porsche.
Wait they both had hairdryers for engines...
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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So what about next year's Le Mans? Single cylinder diesel tractor versus Vespa hairdryer?
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I agree. The average modern four pot petrol engine fitted to a typical modern daily driver is a featureless, soulless, over-silenced non-entity. The completely linear power delivery and draconian silencing removes any pleasure from extending the engine or driving it enthusiastically, not to mention just how strangled and breathless they feel at higher revs.
I hate diesel clatter, but at least a typical modern turbodiesel has some genuine muscle about its delivery. When you get it on boost around its peak torque revs it pushes you into the seat and chucks the car up the road with surprising vigour. They also seem to cope much better with the relentless weight explosion of modern cars.
The economy is just a bonus IMO.
For a six+ cylinder sports car I'd still take petrol every time, but for daily driver / family cars, I wouldn't look at anything other than diesel any more.
Cheers
DP
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Ah the deltic. My old man drove one of those as well, and loved it. It too was hot, smelly and made a terrific noise at speed.
I cant say I have any interest in trains, but I used to enjoy going home to Sheffield from Uni in Brighton. After riding on electric trains south of London, getting to St. Pancras with big diesel Intercity 125's rumbling away and belching out black fumes, was quite special!
I was down there a fortnight ago for the first time in a couple of years; can't believe they have got rid of the glorious old Victorian train shed at St Pancras?!
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TVM,
When you called yourself RF, I remember you being very friendly and approachable. You had a good sense of humour, which could and would bite from time to time, but the recipient usually found it as funny as those watching.
Now I've come back and you've changed moniker. You also seem to have changed personality - less humour and more bite?
Ignore me if I'm speaking out of turn, but has something happened to change your perspective on life?
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>>One of the most amazing engine sounds was, in fact, a diesel - the Foden 2-stroke supercharged sixes (and fours) fitted to a minority of Foden lorries up until the early 70's.
Hooray SS, I can still hear that crackle, and they went very well indeed too, in an era when HGVs were supposed to be governed at 38mph... I know those Foden diesels weren't HGVs but they were quite big and could outrun and out-accelerate most if not all of their contemporaries. The first sporting truck.
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It's not all about torque, speed and economy. For that reason,
>>>> It's about soul.
The modern diesel, IMHO replicates closely the thrust and the top gear, (from 30 mph), ability of the old pushrod V8's and petrol cars are left looking naff, rev hungry, fuel wasting piles of doo doo. Before diesel all of us boys would have died for a V8. Go on, tell me different. All I ever wanted was either a Mustang or a Dodge (Chrysler) Charger, two friends had them and were quite attainable. Pants now compared with modern cheap common rail diesel stuff and almost as quick. I have never driven a big lux diesel, but I do drive an old E320 petrol Merc'. Decently quick, but not by E320CDI standards! where does that leave us then chaps? Diesel is the ONLY way forward in the short term. On level ground I can drive my (laden), Master van around in fifth from 35mph. Worth thinking about.
VVBR........................MARTIN.D
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The regulations are slanted in favour of diesel by quite some margin. This doesn't really prove anything, plus did you see it? One word- boring.
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Why would we want to hold on to an engine technology (petrol) which is only about 25% efficient with diesels having 50% or more fuel efficiency ? Granted, diesels do need a turbo to make them acceptable to drive, that said, once rolloign the average 2.0 TDI will perform like most 2.5 petrol cars.
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