if it has been written off as a cat c in the last 2 years it should have needed a vic check and the v5c will cleary show on the front botton left corner that it is an insurance write off.
have you got this information?
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oldman
This is where it becomes quite strange....
Experian says it was cat c written off this year, date given was actually after I bought the car! This date is quite close to the date of issue of my V5.
HPI says it was cat c written off last year (almost a year ago from now), which obviously makes sense.
I checked my V5 document but there is no indication it needs or has undergone a VIC. All it says in the special notes section is "declared new at first registration" and "non-transferable registration mark". (I presume that is where the VIC notice would appear). Moreover, I have phoned DVLA and VOSA and they have both said my car has never had a VIC or would require one in the future. They also do not have records that it was ever written off.
So either hpi and experian have got it wrong (car was never written off), or the insurer did not report it to dvla which I think may be illegal.
Either way, I am in a fine mess....
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Screwloose
I have considered the misrepresentation option before. While I am no solicitor, I think it will be extremely difficult to get any result. From my research, sellers are under no legal obligation to declare write offs. The description of the vehicle on the advert also does not seem to leave the seller vulnerable.
However, I take your point that seeing a solicitor may well be my best way out and I may well have to take this option although it is my least favoured one.
It is indeed worrying that despite the assurances on vehicle check websites, they are not always accurate. However, the actual date of write off for my car was a year ago! I think the fact that it only surfaced after I bought the car makes it all very suspicious.....the number change only made things more complicated....I can't help feeling that the seller may have manipulated things as he is allegedly a mortgage underwriter...
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well you havnt replied to my question, so i will bow out on this one.....................
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well you havnt replied to my question, so i will bow out on this one.>>
But your question has been answered.....
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Number plate changes are tracked and shouldn't make any difference to information available (unless real fraud is being committed - i.e. a 'mirror car' etc).
HPI/Experian etc are not infallable and records can be slow to be updated. I once (knowingly) bought a car with outstanding finance incorrectly logged against it - needed a few letters to sort it out.
I also come across a lot of salvage companies advertising cars as 'not recorded'. A lot of fleets are self-insured, for example.
Personally I don't rate HPI that highly for V-car type checks. Best to have a good look around a prospective purchase and see if its been repaired. Lots of funny things go on with car repairs and a lot don't end up recorded. Conversely, for an older motor, a car can come up Cat D and be quite a decent buy.
What was the damage by the way?
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aprilia
as far as i know, front and back have been involved in impact. Windscreen also changed. These superficial parts obviously were repaired when i bought it. What worried me was that mazda found suspension problems eg bent lower arm, cross member, steering wheel column etc... I didn't even notice these problems to be honest....i brought my car to them because of a water leak in my roof/windscreen, which they have still not managed to fix after all this time!!
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What I am curious to know is:
1. Could a number change have masked the car's history?
2. It there a situation where a vehicle's accident history could be held back or put on record belatedly? i.e. could the seller have manipulated this?
3. My V5 document says nothing about it being a previous Cat C meaning DVLA knows nothing about this, is this illegal?
4. What are my rights in this situation? (I cannot claim this car is unroadworthy as I have stupidly carried out repair work on it)
5. What is my best chance of recovering any money back on this?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
1. yes......... i have one
2.not manipulated by the seller, but depending on the insurance company they do not get listed straight away and the change of plate may have lit the damaged history up
3.your v5c will only list it as having accident damage if it has had the vic check (its not illegal but as you say all damaged cars even if not recorded as such (ie self insured hire cars)should be reported to dvla as having had damage (how do you draw the line though between needing a wing and or a complete back end?)
4.i would be a little more loud to hpi as the first port of call followed possibly with a solicitor conversant with motoring law
5.i thought the hpi indemnity for the private man was £10,000
have you spoken to the seller of the car?is he a part time motor trader?have you put all the dates together to get a picture?
One final thing...if you can get any sense out of the abi they may? tell you what company wrote this car off,if you can get this detail then you can possibly find out what the damage was
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Oldman
Thanks for the answers.
I would have thought a Cat C must be reported to DVLA for a VIC. (don't think this is an option)
hpi cover is "up to" £10000 only for failure to acquire title. Reduction in market value claim (e.g.total loss) is £2000 or 20% of market value. They have it in small print for this....sneaky...I wonder if they can be sued for misrepresentation!!
Seller (2nd owner) obviously denies all knowledge of accident. According to the date of write off, the accident took place under the 1st owner.
I did ask hpi to give me the name of the insurer who declared write off but they said it needs to be processed by claims dept first....
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"water leak in my roof/windscreen, which they have still not managed to fix after all this time!!"
Ouch that sounds nasty - it could be as simple as the screen needing to come out and be replaced/resealed, or it could be as bad as the shell being twisted.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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TVM
Actually, it seems that the shell is twisted as you said. The screen has been removed and resealed plus further sealant applied externally but it is still leaking. It is difficult to ascertain where the leak is from but the joint between the windscreen pillars and the car roof is always where it gets damp after prologned rain. You know of any leak repair specialists?
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From the damage you described it was a serious impact; I would imagine the shell could easily have been twisted. It doesn't sound as if the car was properly repaired at all (e.g. bent lower arm) which makes me think it must have been purchased as salvage and had a back yard repair done on it. Who did your seller buy it from?
I agree that HPI indemnity of 'up to £2000' is a bit inadequate, to say the least.
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Aprilia
Seller says he bought it from "private dealer".
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Shortly after the RX8 came out I had a conversation with a body shell engineer at Jaguar. He said they had one in to look at and dismantled it to work out how they managed to maintain rigidity given the pillarless door arrangement--they couldn't work out how. Now that either says quite a lot about Jaguar engineers, or this thing is so close to the limits of tolerance that even a quite minor shunt will twist it. Granted broken suspension and steering column sounds like a bit of a wallop.
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hartian
Your case for a refund is getting stronger by the minute. If the shell is twisted, then the car is legally "unroadworthy" too. It's clearly not been either professionally repaired or inspected. Have you contacted the original owner?
Have you had a check to see if the seller is a trader masquerading as a private individual? Was his name on the V5 - and for how long - and does his phone number come up in the same medium on a regular basis? An "enqiry agent" would be able to confirm this for you. If you can show a pattern of sales, you're on a winner. Sale of Goods Act; Trades Descriptions Act; Trading Standards Dept; etc. etc....
Did it really revert to it's original registration? I always thought that it would be issued another, appropriately dated - and thus untransferable - number.
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Last one I took a cherished number off went back to its original reg.... HPI also had it tracked back to original reg. via cherished number.
Did it have an MoT (assuming its 3+ years old)?
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Ok well you need to employ an automotive engineer for a report, and a solicitor to sue the person who sold (misrepresented) the vehicle. If it was not the guy you bought it from, you will need a statement from him, and pursue the preceeding owner.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Aprilia
HPI tracked it to its original number and said there were no interests recorded against it when I did the check using the private plate. It was only after the original number was re-applied that a 2nd check revealed the accident history. But I had already bought the car then....
No, it never had an MOT as it is less than 3 yrs old.
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Screwloose,
I have spoken to seller I bought it from and he denied any knowledge that it had been involved in an accident. He had owned it for 9 months. His name was on the V5 although I did not verify his identity.
Even when I suggested that the car is not roadworthy, he said the car drove fine when he owned it and that he was happy to go to court to prove it. I spoke to trading standards at this point but they wanted me to get an independent inspection first. I have to say I did not try very hard to do this and thought I could repair it and get on with my life. It was only after the repair had been carried out that mazda came and told me they did an experian check and found it had been a write off. If I had known before, I would have done what trading standards suggested.....
Yes it did revert to its original number. My v5 does make the remark of "non transferable registration mark".
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Is this possible?
seller has a write off with a PP
Takes a PP off a known good similar age car and uses it to "clone" car for sale
Buyer HPIs cloned number, all clear.
Seller changes the cars plate to age related.
The PP on the car for sale was never HPId
Is this possible?
Is it possible to trace the previous plate issued to the car you own? Is this the same number that you HPId?
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Dox
Don't think what you suggested is possible. The hpi is based on both VRM and VIN. The 2 have to match for everything to be ok. The previous plate issued to the car is the current plate I have. When the seller removed the PP, it went back to its original number.
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Where did you get the vin from?
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tinyurl.com/z65ds {Link to www.vehiclelicence.gov.uk shortened as was screwing up the page width - DD}
Do a vehicle enqiry here with the PP to see if its still registered to the Mazda
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Dox
Did a vehicle search as you suggested. The PP is not showing up at all.
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VIN from checking the chassis number on the car itself.
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hartian
Perhaps the original owner can fill in the missing information on what happened to the car and when. The "had it for nine months" sounds just about right for a write-off to be sold-on through Autotrader etc. and then bodged-up for resale.
Enlist an enquiry agent [your solicitor will have a tame one] to amass proof that he's a trader and then everything becomes much, much simpler.
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Screwloose
What makes you so sure he is a trader? Do you not think it is possible that he bought it as a repaired write off for a cheap price and then sold it on for a profit pretending he never knew anything?
I think he clearly knew that my HPI check was going to be clear as I did ask him if it was previously involved in any accident and he said no. In fact he offered to let me do the check on his own computer. To have this confidence suggests that he somehow knew I was never going to find anything which leads me to suspect that he had set this up.
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Taking conspiracy theories to the limit,
"let me do the check on his own computer. To have this confidence suggests that he somehow knew I was never going to find anything which leads me to suspect that he had set this up".
This either means he wanted you to do the check under his control and he new that the result you would get would help the sale, this could also be achieved without a lot technical dificulty so that he could display a locally held copy of a favorable result!
Did you pay and get billed by HPI for the enquiry?
If he has nothing to hide he will not be frightened to show you his original purchase invoice. If he resists this I believe he is bluffing and he is involved upto his neck.
Whilst you may need an enquiry agent to prove he is trading, I suggest that some covert observation by yourself (and friends ) will quickly find this out. What area are you from?
--
pmh (was peter)
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Been here & done that.
My 944 when I looked at it had obviously been resprayed & the panel fit wasn't up to Porsche standard by a long chalk.
But the HPI check the dealer showed me was clear & the V5 showed nothing untoward. Anyway it had been on his forecourt for 3 months & a test drive showed no problems as did a thorough look at the car. So I brought it at about 30% less than book. I then wrote to it's previous owner in SSL. And about a week later had a call from them. Apparently an old lady had drifted across the white line in a 30mph limit & hit the OSF. It had been written off by the insurance co. & they'd paid out. I then did my own HPI check which showed it as a Cat C. The previous HPI done by the dealer was around 10months old which I'd not noticed. I then had HPI investigated & it turns out that the insurance co. that wrote it off took 18months to notify anyone & for it to appear on HPI! This acording to HPI is A. quite common & B. beyond there control. The time meant that it didn't need a marked V5C because thats a recent requirement.
Am I bothered, no it drives well, I did agood deal at a good price e.g. I'd have ended up with an older car fo the same money otherwise. Will I tell anyone when I sell it, probably not unless they ask.
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tr7v8
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I cannot believe it took them so long to notice HPI. The money that HPI get for providing outdated information is simply extortionate. Their assurances on their website give consumers a false sense of security.
I think that my situation differs from you case because I am now left with a car that still leaks (hope to fix it soon?) and I am not sure if somebody has done something illegal somewhere along the line as the car has no v5 mark of previous cat c and hence no VIC. I am left to sort this mess out.
Of course you can choose not to tell anyone about when you sell, but the data would be on HPI if the buyer does a check. Besides, you can quite easily get sued if the buyer finds out later and proves that the car is unroadworthy. That's just my view on things.
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pmh
I got billed by HPI who also sent me the car history check by post which showed no adverse records. So, the conspiracy theory that the seller set his PC up to give me a clean HPI check is quite unlikely....
After discovering the accident history, I asked him if he had a receipt for his original purchase but he claimd he had thrown it away. I have no doubt he knows about the accident as I find it impossible that he has not noticed the leak. (his explanation is that he keeps it garaged all the time)
I have to say that since finding out about the write off, which was about 2 months after buying the car, I have not spoken to him. Maybe if I spoke to him again about the write off, I will have a stronger case to negotiate compensation.
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>>I can't help feeling that the seller may have manipulated thingsas he is allegedly a mortgage underwriter...
hartian
You may not realise just what you have said. If he is a mortgage underwriter, then he must be registered with the Financial Services Authority (I beleive you can check this online). This means he must be squeaky clean when he registered and remain so. If you find he has been untruthful with his dealings with you then a complaint to the FSA could result in him loosing his licence, hence his ability to work in the finacial world. It could be a useful lever to help sort out this mess you are in.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Sell the car and get on with your life,if you bought it cheaply enough you may not be too much out of pocket.
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T Lucas
This may be the final outcome if I can't get any further with legal proceedings.
Problem I have is, I will need to get the car checked for roadworthiness (if I am selling it as a car in sound driving condition) and also probably have to inform DVLA and get VIC cos I don't want to be breaking any laws by selling it on irresponsibly....
You see, it will continue in a vicious cycle (i.e. next buyer will give me problems) unless I stop the rot with me.
All equates to spending more time and money and further drop in value of the car. Any suggestions on how to get the max value out of the car? At auctions maybe? declaring it as prev Cat c?
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it will do very poor as a cat c at auction.
I still think like most of posters that the seller is being expediant with the truth.
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oldman
So you think auction is not a good option from a financial point of view? I heard it will probably fetch half of its market value as a cat C even if repaired.
Looks like I will have to first get the vehicle inspected to make sure it is at least roadworthy. If not roadworthy, hassle trading standards to take on this case (I know I have repaired it, but think I still might stand a chance?). If roadworthy, speak to solicitor and see where I stand.
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artful dodger {P}
Thanks for the interesting information.
A quick search has not revealed his name on the FSA website. Is it compulsory for all underwriters to register? Maybe he lied about his profession as well.....
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I reckon the private plate is a red herring. Its just the insurance co being slow to put it on the register (can take months).
If the car is roadworthy then the seller has not done anything wrong (legally) although he is obviously not trustworthy (but we know he's a mortgage broker anyway - anyone want a cheap endowment? LOL!)
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Apilia
You're probably right, plate change may not have affected the check. Maybe insurace company took a long time (1 year??) to report it but they seem to have conveniently forgotten to inform DVLA. But is it not too much of a coincidence that the history only became apparent after I acquired the car and had the plate changed back to original?
Could events been:
Owner 1 bought from new and had accident and write off. Sold to salvage who then sold for repair/repaired it. Somebody at this stage did not inform DVLA. Eventually bought by owner 2 as a "unrecorded accident" car and had pp put on. Somehow he anticipated that write off record was imminent (being mortgage underwriter with access to credit and car history database) and sold it off quickly before it became official.
Speculative.... but this is the best I can come up with.
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wifes car is a cat c
it was purchased by me with accident damage
it had a private plate but was transferred off by the owner and the original plate was re-alocated to the car
if i do a hpi on it right now, it will not been reasigned with the v car marker and will show as hpi clear ( we have owned the car 15 months now)
I reckon that the plate change confused the system as v5c is clear and no vic check was carried out by me,however when the car is sold the system might just wake up and the next keeper may find that they need a vic for when they come to tax it.
confused?
the other side of the coin is.....
I bought a car before xmas and as i had it more than three months for sale i sorned and sent off the v5c (the law for anybody including traders once the tax is out)i got a confirmation of sorn and also a vic application as the vehicle came up as v-car at dvla this was clear when i bought it but is now showing,i got the car from a good source at a good price but its still a inconveniance and the log book is now marked as having accident damage, it is definately worth a lot less now and i wouldnt even consider selling it at auction
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oldman
Have you actually done a check on your wife's car to confirm that it is hpi clear now?
If it is clear, then the plate change does confuse the system am I right?
From the exanples you've given, it seems that it is quite common for vcar history to surface only after buyer purchases it. Important lesson to learn. So what are you going to do with the other car then if not auction?
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A quick search has not revealed his name on the FSA website. Is it compulsory for all underwriters to register? Maybe he lied about his profession as well.....
>>
From a chat with a customer who is an independant financial adviser, yes he must be registered if dealing with any financial matters. The rules of what they can and cannot do are very clear, e.g. they cannot talk to a potential customer giving financial advice without a name badge on otherwise they would be breaking the law.
So it may be he was lying about his profession, which may also apply to your transaction.
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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artful dodger {P}
Thanks for the info, just goes to show we cannot trust anybody, although I don't know whether the FSA check that I did was sufficiently thorough.
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money when its smelt makes liers out of most people unfortunately
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Surely whether or not the person that sold you the car works as a financial adviser is irrelevant,or am i missing something?
If i was a betting man(which i am not)i would guess you have little chance of getting any redress from the seller,but you may get lucky.
The car was probably priced cheaply,and a car like that available outside the Mazda network usually has a story behind it.
A friend of a friend recently bought a 'cheap' Peugeot 206cc via Ebay,after inspection it turns out the car has been damaged at the front and poorly repaired,thats why the A/C and airbags are not working,no sensors and no A/C components.
As ever if you do not know what you are looking at pay somebody that does.
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T Lucas
I think I will get a vehicle inspection first and take it from there. I agree that the seller can quite easily get out of this one, but if it is not roadworthy then I may have a case if despite the repair work carried out under me, there remains a component that would fail the roadworthiness check.
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Thanks to everyone for the help and advice so far.
I have another question:
IF I am not able to get any further after speaking to solictor/trading standards, what is the best way to get rid of the car without losing too much money?
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Of course, I am not looking to do the same to another person....I cant anyway cos it would be on hpi....
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HPI, Experian etc etc, all these companies get their information about cars being recorded or not recorded from DVLA's databases. How DVLA doesnt know about the vehicle being a CAT C is surprising. Once a claim is made on a damaged car and the insurance company decides to write it off, they send ifno to DVLA, not HPI or expreian. Dvla is in the wrong here. CAT C cars are not allowed back on the road without a VIC check. DVLA will not issue a LOG book V5 until the VIC has been carried out. VIC will be recorded on the V5. If i were you i would get back to DVLA and complain.
Sometimes it can take insurance companies up to 6 months to send info to DVLA.
Did you buy your mazda with the Log Book present. Insurance companies usually dont give log books for catagory C cars to salvage dealers that buy the car. You have to apply for it from DVLA.
If the car is a clone and yours isnt the original one, the police will take your car and you will lose out on all money.
I recently discovered that one of my cars has been cloned and DVLA has issued log books to other people who have either got stolen cars or damage repaired cars. The vin and vrm was copied from my car. So even if that other persons car was a CAT C and it had my cars vrm and vin on it, it will pass as not recorded on HPI etc. always remember to check engine number and vin number which is located on the driver side floor by the seat. good luck
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and also if you dont want to loose too much money then there is only one way. get it repaired properly first and then sell it to an exporter who will export it to another country. The car will obviously be unrecorded in the country it goes to as they dont use the same system as us. Or send it to ireland and back and it becomes unrecorded as it will be classed as an import. ok buddy.
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For the car to be imported into Ireland it will incur a vehicle registration tax of to 23- 30%.
Also the car can still be checked there on HPI exchange with the chassis no.
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OK actually been here & done this. It's only in the past couple of years that Cat C's have needed a VIC check & get a marked V5C. My Porsche was bought 18 months ago & the HPI check was clear as was the V5. I HPI'd it & it came up as Cat C. On discussing it it turned out the HPI check I'd been given by the dealer was 8-9months old & the car was clear then. In the interim the insurance Co. had notified the system that it was a write off. That had taken 18 Months from the accident! My car had 3-4 private plates in it's lifetime & HPI track everyone, the HPI check was done against the Reg at first then after querying it against the VIN. Everything ties up, the car is legit & was properly repaired, if it had been a few years younger then it would have probably been a Cat D or even not written off at all. I paid a good price for it, realised it probably had been thumped & am quite happy.
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