I've just had my 54 reg Jazz serviced(25,000 miles).The dealer told me that the front discs needed skimming.I bowed to their technical knowledge and agreed.I'm just a bit curious now as to whether this will have been really necessary,given that about 80% of my mileage is on the motorway system.The last Jazz that I had for over 45000 miles and 2.5 years never needed this.I think the cost of the skim was about £50 plus the pads,about £100.
Thanks
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/05/2008 at 20:18
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Quiz them about why they thought the discs needed skimming.... were they warped (pedal vibration?), were they pitted/rusted through lack of use?, were they low (obviously need repacing).
Sounds like they were either ripping you off or through lack of use they were pitted, although on a Jazz this is unlikely...
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I would have got a second oppinion on that,price seems a bit steep as well.possibly would not cost much more to replace discs.depending on work involved?
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Steve
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I gather this is almost standard practice on Merc's - you get a call saying 'it's up on the ramp and we've got the wheels off and the discs and pads need replacing - shall we crack on with it for you, only £400 if we do it now'.
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I gather this is almost standard practice on Merc's - you get a call saying 'it's up on the ramp and we've got the wheels off and the discs and pads need replacing - shall we crack on with it for you, only £400 if we do it now'.
Exactly same for Fords, I was told two and a half years ago (about 20,000 miles ago), that my Mk3 Mondeo front pads were 70% worn and rears 90% worn. Strange, I thought, they looked ok to me when I checked them before the service. I told them that I would change them myself when they were worn nearer to the minimum limit (1.5mm) and I changed the rears 2 years later, 6 months ago (16000 miles later) with 3 mm of pad material still on them and I'm still running on the fronts, which still have about 4 mm of material left on them. In September SWMBO took her 12,000 mile Focus in and they said the front pads were 50% worn, when I checked they were almost as new. Some might think, well to be on the safe side, it might be best to get them changed instead of waiting till the next service, but what a waste of materials, not to mention the £75 per axle for changing them (just the pads, not disks).
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I gather this is almost standard practice
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may i refer you all to the excellent guide by dishonestjohn:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=380
DISHONEST JOHN'S GUIDE TO SERVICE SCAMS
Sun, 16 Sep 2001
(A RIP-OUT RIP-OFF GUIDE FOR WORKSHOP MANAGERS TO HELP MAXIMISE SERVICE REVENUES)
After extensive research, Dishonest John presents 26 top tips for dodgy service managers who prefer to put profits before punters.
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You have just had money taken from your wallet as good as any pickpocket and they told you in advance they were doing it.
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Thanks for all the replies.I've alredy posted in the discussion section regarding this dealership.Given the comments above plus the rest I think a letter to the dealer principal or to Honda UK may be in order.
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I'm suprised they suggested skimming even as a scam. Skimming discs is hardly worth the bother these days and they would have had a better 'take' on new discs.
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who said anything about actually doing the work?
madf
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There are tools available that can skim discs on the car but certainly on all the cars I've owned recently you can fit new discs as quick,if not quicker than new pads.ie.remove wheel,undo one caliper bolt,slacken or remove the other.Then remove retaining screw or clip and remove disc;fit new disc and refit everything else-the only other thing to do as you re-assemble is to spread the pads and when you finish,tread on the pedal to reset the brake pads.
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>>.. on all the cars I've owned recently you canfit new discs as quick,if not quicker than new pads.ie.remove wheel,undo one caliper bolt,slacken or remove the other.Then remove retaining screw or clip and remove disc;fit new disc and refit everything else-the only other thing to do as you re-assemble is to spread the pads and when you finish,tread on the pedal to reset the brake pads.
I didn't realise it was generally that easy - I've changed pads plenty of times (a few yrs ago now), but never disks. I always imagined that the hub would have to come off, so would need the bearing repacking etc.
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>>on all the cars I've owned recently you can fit new discs as quick,if not quicker than new pads.
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I have never changed any disks myself.
From what I have read, disks are not always easy to remove.
I have read of various methods used to get off stuck disks, including using an angle grinder to cut a radial slot so that a cold chisel or a similar tool can be used to split the disk.
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>>on all the cars I've owned recently you can fit new discs as quick,if not quicker than new pads. >> I have never changed any disks myself. From what I have read, disks are not always easy to remove. I have read of various methods used to get off stuck disks, including using an angle grinder to cut a radial slot so that a cold chisel or a similar tool can be used to split the disk.
The old Astra had a habit of not releasing front wheels,once had to cut one off when a sledgehammer would not shift it.As for discs,try an LDV 400 series(or early Disco),the disc is mounted behind the hub!
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agree.skimming disc's is hardly worth the time and effort.Much easier to fit new ones yourself.
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Sounds like a rip off. Unless the discs have covered high mileage,are warped/DTV is out of range, scored, overheated (blued) or there are cracks, then no, they probably don't need changing. Either the garage is being over cautious or simply trying to do their best to relieve you of hard earned money.
Motorway driving is kind to discs HOWEVER one of the easiest ways to damage a disc is to leave a motorway on a slip road then brake hard at a junction/traffic lights etc but then keeping the very hot pads hard up against the very hot discs. The net result being heat concentrated in one spot (under the pads) and no cooling air as car is stationary. Result - warped discs, glazed and overheated pads.
But I get the impression you don't drive like this.
There used to be a device that could skim discs/machine circumference whilst the disc is still on the car. We had one in college many years ago but I am not sure if they are still used.
Andrew
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mostyn,just wanted to shed a little bit of light on the disc brake skimming discussion that is going on here.As a honda technician i can confirm to you that"HONDA" warrant brake discs up to 40K.IF the brake disc "runout" is measured & is out of spec (on a jazz the service limit for runout is 0.1mm) then honda insist that if possible the disc should be skimmed & not replaced .Having said that if the disc is worn close to minimum thickness & the resulting skim would bring it below that level then the disc should be replaced. With your car only having done 25k then if your discs needed skimming then i would fully expect you to get this done free under warranty & not have had to pay for it yourself. I really think a complaint on your part to Honda customer services would be in order, they take this kind of thing very seriously & generally always try to help out there customers.
To clear up the disc skimming myth ! the above being said to my knowledge all honda dealers must have some "means " of skimming brake discs,whether on or off the car,at the dealer where i work we do all our skimming on the car & it generally takes about an hour to skim a pair of discs on the car.hope this helps you out mostyn.
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if it aint broke don`t fix it
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Thanks a lot to all that have replied.I think the advice from Grease Monkey will prove especially helpful.I think I'll get in touch with the dealer and if they are not helpful I will contact Honda UK.Once again,thanks for all the replies.
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I?d just like to say a big thank you for the replies that were posted to my query. I dropped the dealership a letter and quickly received a call offering their apology for the state of the courtesy car. The issue regarding the brake disc skimming was somewhat skirted around though. As compensation I was offered a free minor service next time (about £130).
All in all not such a bad result
I?ve not been able to post a conclusion to my original post earlier due to loss of computer use but once again thanks to all.
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Hi,just thought that I would bring this back as I'm about to run through the same service with our third Jazz in 6yrs.
Its the 25,000 mile service and its all booked at our local Honda dealer.The service is quoted at £285 and front pads at £85.Does this seem to be good value for the North of England.Would the pads need replacing at 25,000 usually as I do about 75%of my miles on quiet motorways.
Finally any more comments on the skimming.Any suggestions what I should say if they ring me up on the day and say the need skimming at £xxx??
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hi mostyn,what year is your new jazz,i only ask because honda have changed the servicing schedules on 06 yr model cars onwards,25k service for 06 cars & on does not include the valve clearences being checked as this is now deemed only to be required at the 62.5k service.check your chassis num on the base of your screen to see what year of manufacture it is becaus there should be a labour saving if the valves arnt checked. £85 is the standard honda happiness price for front brake pads ! as for the skimming if you arnt experiencing any kind of brake judder the just go ahead with the replacement pads,you are the customer after all,you can decline anything you want,the garage can only recommend that you have it carried out but cant force you to do so.
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My experience is that it is about right for Jazz front pads to last 25,000 miles but that the discs last much longer. Our Jazz has done 43,000 miles and the discs are still well within the wear limit and showing no evidence of warping or excessive corrosion on the friction surfaces.
The Jazz front discs are more complicated to change than usual, although I'm not entirely sure of the exact procedure, so that skimming them whilst still on the car would probably be more economical than replacement. Maybe grease monkey could explain more about the disc replacement procedure.
Haynes are bringing a workshop manual out in the Summer for the Jazz and I'm looking forward to having a good read of it.
Have never bothered to check the valve clearances on our 2003 model and it looks like it doesn't really need to be done for a while yet.
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>The Jazz front discs are more complicated to change than usual although I'm not entirely sure of the exact procedure so that skimming them whilst still on the car would probably be more economical than replacement. Maybe grease monkey could explain more about the disc replacement procedure.
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hi doctor chris,replacing the front discs is quite straight forward,the same really as on most modern front wheel drive cars,unbolt the caliper,hang it out of the way,remove the caliper carrier(2x 14mm bolts) remove 2 retaining screws from the disc face & good tap with a hammer & off they come.
mostyn,either check your chassis number on the car or on your log book,around about the 8-10th digit shoulb be eg:05,06,07 etc this determines the build year & as i said before honda have changed the service shedule on 06 model yr onwards so that the valve clearances need only be checked for the first time at the 62.5k service,all earlier model jazz`s still need to be checked/adjusted at every 25k service,hope this helps you out.
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Thanx grease monkey. I found a Jazz maintenance website that gave me the impression that the hub nut had to be removed to remove the disc but I've obviously got the wrong end of the stick.
So, if disc removal is as easy as with any other car, why bother with the expense of skimming?
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Hi,Greasemonkey.Its a 56 reg and it was registered in feb 2007.From what you say the £285 for the service would include checking the valves and there is a possibility that I do not need them checking.Where do I check the VIN to see if it needs doing,ie is therea web site that I cal look on to see the cut off range.I'm not getting any brake judder and I try to be steady on the brakes and drive with a bit of anticipation.My commute is about 65 miles each way and for most of it I am on the motorway.I try to avoid touching the brakes for the whole journey by looking ahead etc.
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Most garages look for cash from motorists hence the disc skimmimg routine,
two options for you ,
Honda co uk own website used to have a button > Honda Owner then go into the recalls check
Try the excellent www.hondafitjazz.com
then go into the Service Manual and then Knuckle Removal
Hope this helps
PS
You could try other dealerships in NW I found the Clitheroe dealer quite helpful sometime back
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mostyn,forgot to add that if you have a previous service checklist handy (from your last service) it does state on there about the valve clearences etc
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I'm pretty sure that on the 12.5k service they weren't done.I do know there is quite a leap in price between the 12.5 and the 25k service.
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The service is quoted at £285 and front pads at £85.Does this seem to be good value for the North of England.Would the pads need replacing at 25 000 usually as I do about 75%of my miles on quiet motorways.
I'm confused by this - have you been quoted the front pad replacement on the assumption (by who?) that they'll need replacing at 25K?
On ours (used exclusively around town) the pads were noted as having abut 7.5K miles left on them at 25K. As the car was 4yrs old, the dealer reckoned we would prob make it to the next service. £85 was the price, too.
Bizarrely, the dealer did call a few mths later to wonder if we might bring the car in to have the pads changed! They must be really desperate for work.
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This is our third jazz and the pads were changed at 25k on the other two.Possibly the dealer may be lifting my leg a little and changing them early.I'm not really mechanically minded so would be unsure if they had a lot left.I checked the price as i rang around a bit .
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I looked at a Jazz recently, wondering whether to trade to something smaller and more economical, but I'm not so sure now.
This does seem rather expensive servicing. I recently had a 25,000 mile service done on my Vectra , by a Vauxhall main dealer, and it cost £175, which included changing brake fluid. They told me how much was left on the pads, with no suggestion that they needed work this time.
Why such a difference ? I'm puzzled. The Vectra is a big car. The Jazz is a small car.
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Most of the Jazz drivers around here brake in every bend, whether they need to or not, and usually in the middle! I'm sure brake life depends much on driving style.
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This does seem rather expensive servicing.
I agree and Honda are clearly aware of that as they publish a brochure with overall running costs - depreciation, fuel consumption as well as service cost, vs other similar cars.
One issue seems to be that Honda dealer pricing is fairly rigid - I can get minor and major services done on my Merc for the same price as the Jazz. The MB "menu" price is dearer, but many dealers will discount at least 20% if pressed. Unique amongst other manufacturers, there are several Honda dealers within easy reach for me, but shopping around proves fruitless.
Having said that, the minor service on many cars now seems to be around the £200 mark, which is a lot for what is little more than an oil & filter change.
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Just as an aside, our 2003 1.4 Jazz, bought pre-registered with virtually no milege and now on 43,000 miles, has to have been the most economical car ever to run, especially when you consider it still has some value on the used car market.
Serviced by Honda until out of warranty and their costs were modest. Serviced by myself since then for next to nothing. Tyres are cheap and last well, excellent fuel economy, always around 44 mpg whether town or motorway and insurance a bargain (£12 pm with Saga, OK, giving my age away).
As I was servicing it this week I gave the underside a good look and everything was rock solid with only a few flakes of rust on a few spot welds and components with sharp corners, always happens but the metal is usually thick enough for it not to matter.
This is a car that will be still running well after 10 years and 90,000 miles, what more do you want?
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2004 - Brake Disc Skimming - more like wallet skimming in many cases.
Exception - Lexus - Son's car 2.5 yrs old in for a service -
"We have replaced the front disks as they were corroded from the leading edge that might affect the brake pads" - No Charge for parts/labour - Warranty job.
Garage view - "Apart from, servicing costs the car should not cost the customer unless they are wearable parts (brakes, wipers etc)"
Other son Toyota Celica bought brand new - similar problem at 25,000 miles - £220 for brakes & pads and no they would not come under warranty.
Son has never bought another Toyota.
Same Company Toyota & Lexus and a world apart in customer care - in similar cases.
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Reminded me of when I had my 3 year old Focus serviced a little while back.
I took it to a local branch of an outfit that shall I say, could have something to do with the top level in motorsport...............
They reported that whilst doing the service, they found thin front pads, very dusty rear brakes ( drums ) and wheels needing alingment.
I was a little suspicous since I'd checked the pads, and at 25k miles looked to have plenty left, so I asked them to do alingment only.
When at home, I wondered how far out the aligment was, so looked at the trackrod ends. These were dusty and had clearly not had a spanner on them.
I went back, and asked how come they had charged me with something not done. After much coughing and "it was Harry's fault, he's not in today" etc. They then did the work.
As some other posters have said these guys plan on you not knowing about "technical" things.
I could have gone for the brake dust removal, at £5, which would probably be for nothing or at the most having a air line blown into the drums.
Needless to say they won't be having me back as a customer!
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You've got to watch those sneaky technicians !!! That's the trouble with the motor industry, everyones screwing everyone and not in a good way.
That's why i'm dissappointed with the wallet skimming comment. Brake lathes are an ideal way to save money for car drivers - if people know the facts and don't think that brake lathe technology is old school technology. Every set of brake discs can be skimmed at least once before they reach minimum thickness (I've come across some garages that fit new ones with every set of pads). I have argued point blankly with some technicians that my brakes don't need replacing and most couldn't even tell me the minimum thickness of them. Also skimming discs is a bit safer when fitting just new pads. I always ask for a quick skim when techs are replacing my pads - i'd much rather have the shorter bedding in period associated with that than waiting for new pads to bed into a partially worn disc - call me a sissy but I like knowing my brakes are as close to 100% as possible. If anyone needs to find a brake lathe check out www.skimmydiscs.co.uk.
Also does anyone actually believe in wheel balancing?!?!
I was talking to a tech about it (it showed up as £7 on my bill) and wanted to see it in action. He took my wheel off, not very happy about doing it, and put it on the balancer - it was no where near balanced. Brilliant - techs thinking we don't a lot lol
Edited by Webmaster on 22/05/2008 at 20:06
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