I raise my head above the parapet with some trepidation to describe my drive
up the M4 this morning (Bristol to Guildford).
There were the tailgating HGVs described previously. To avoid being
'trapped' in the middle of them, I spent most of my journey in the middle
lane. I moved into the outside lane when I wanted to overtake, and only
moved into the inside lane when it was clear for a good long way ahead.
Someone in a Passat overtook me, then cut in front of me rather closer than
I would have liked, then moved very quickly into the left hand lane, almost
as if he (or it could have been she) was making the point that I was in the
wrong lane.
I considered whether I should also be in the left hand lane, and thought,
no, there's another string of lorries ahead and I won't want to get stuck
behind them. Sure enough, as I get to the end of this thought Passat driver
pulls out in front of me - again closer than I would have liked - and shoots
off past the lorries, which I also overtook a minute later.
I watched him/her repeat this procedure two or three times over the next few
miles before s/he disappeared over the horizon. And thought "What a wally."
But maybe Passat driver thinks the same of me and everyone else driving like
me?
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Just a note to say that Sue has asked me to post this message on her behalf.
Martyn
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Whatever happened to the Weaver Bird public service infotisements?:-(
Mind you, everyone harping on about pulling over to the left all the time without reminding everyone that ideally you need a gap of 2x24 + 1 = 49 car lengths if you're keeping within the limit and not gaining on the vehicle in front before you consider pulling in.
I would have understood if you'd run him under the next lorry's tailgate, though of course I could never condone such an action.
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C/mon Bogush remind us how you got to that conclusion, I forget.
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Sue. I think you may be a lane hogger.
Use your mirrors and stop reducing the M4 to two lanes.
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"..............the safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance"
From an obscure publication, now possibly out of print, but you can probably still pick up a second hand copy at specialist antiquarian bookshops.
The 2x comes from an old tradition of leaving the vehicle behind the same safe gap.
And, of course, the +1 actually allows your vehicle to fit between the two gaps ;-)
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Sue,
This is not really clear cut. If there are lots of HGVs with gaps, people don't expect you to keep bobbing in and out of the inside lane after passing each one.
However there is a fine line where you may upset people behind if you don't pull in when the next HGV is way ahead, otherwise it looks like laziness, which leads others to tailgate, undertake, or overtake and cut in aggressively as your Passat friend did.
The 'wally' obviously thought you had enough time to move back into the inside lane without having to move straight out again, only you know the answer.
S.
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Sue,
I think you may just be lingering in the middle lane a bit longer than ideal. As stated above there is a fine line between weaving in and out and staying put to pass the next inside lane lorry. If it takes you a minute or so to reach them perhaps you should pull over.
A key factor here is that you should expect to use brakes/accelerator to some degree to assist the traffic flow and not doggedly stick to "your" speed.
The fact that you thought about it then and bothered to post about it here shows you are a thinking driver and can be considered above the masses who stay in the middle lane from birth to retirement.
David
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I can not condone what the Passat driver did if there was not room to pull over safely but I know how he might have felt.
Last Saturday afternoon I travelled up the M1. Traffic was light but ALL in the outside lane. I swear that passing J11 there were two inner lanes open for a clear 1 mile plus.
What do you do in these circumstances? Being who I am I undertook in the inside lane whilst smiling and waving to the fools in the outside lane. At the end of about 1 mile I passed the slow vehicle in the oustide lane that all the fools were queing behind, untook him and went merrily on my way. Trouble is I committed a traffic offence every time I undertook a car!
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That's the dilemma isn't it ? You know you're doing wrong but some people just won't look in their mirror or consider what is going on in the rest of the carriageway ?
I undertake in the circumstances you describe relatively rarely but I do tend towards the exaggerated move right into the inside lane (if empty) when going past someone who has sat in the middle for ages.Stuart wrote:
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Strange thing is, when Walter comes screaming up behind you, flashing his lights to indicate that he'd lost the use of his steering, and can't utilise the next overtaking lane, and you take refuge between a couple of trucks on your left, then realise too late that you should really have gone right to get out of his way, and choose to hit the side of Walter's car, rather than the tail of the truck in front, Walter doesn't half get aggrieved at being bounced into the third lane.
Funny that ;-)
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Even more funny considering he's probably already lost his front and rear bumpers riding his out of control car in between slower cars behind you across three lanes.
And his car must have been in a hell of a state to start with, as well as the steering gone: Walters brakes and handbake must have gone, and his clutch and gears, leaving no way to to bring his careering car to a halt without crashing it.
So why does he get upset at the prospect of a few more dents in the side?
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Once read somewhere that if you are not going to start an overtake on the next vehicle in the lane to your left within so many seconds then you should consider moving into the lane on your left. The number of seconds mentioned was quite small ie somewhere around 10 to 15 seconds.
Perhaps I made an erroneous assumption but I took this to mean the time taken where you would either have to move back out again or slow down so as to keep a safe following distance rather than the time to actually arrive alongside said vehicle.
Like Sue I find that if you follow this advice you get the situation where folks behind who do not look much beyond 10 feet in front of the bonnet get a bit stressed. Equally it does lead to getting boxed in by the camel train which then pours past.
So I would like to know what tactics others consider to achive the happy medium between the two extremes of being a member of the middle lane appreciation society or continually weaving in and out.
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Stuart B wrote:
> So I would like to know what tactics others consider to
> achive the happy medium between the two extremes of being a
> member of the middle lane appreciation society or continually
> weaving in and out.
If I'm in one of the overtaking lanes I move over if there's someone approaching behind me hopefully before he has to brake.
That way I'm not constantly weaving, but I don't hold people up.
Of course we all lose concentration every now and then...
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I go with Stu and David W. But the Passat driver was certainly a wally. The point is to stay alert at all times. Not occupy a lane so you can take a nap from thinking about what you are doing. The expression for this is "gears in 5th, mind in neutral". By far the most dangerous state in which to be.
HJ
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Sue
I have on more than one occasion overtaken someone hogging lane 2 and have moved into lane 1 while signalling, hoping the lane 2 driver would get the message, and they often do. However, there's no excuse for cutting in aggressively. There are many circumstances in which it makes little sense to bob in and out of lane 1 and most people understand that. Trouble is, there are still plenty who don't understand that lane 1 is where you should be when it is unobstructed. As for the bad-surface defence of lane 2 driving, I guess there may be stretches of motorway where the lane 1 surface is badly chewed up by trucks, but I'm finding it difficult to remember when I last found one, unlike in the old days. Using lane 2 unnecessarily is one of the main niggles that come out of surveys of opinion on motoring issues, so it clearly makes a lot of people frustrated and angry, as is manifested in cutting in, tailgating and "undertaking" (well named). Better to err in favour of lane 1, I reckon.
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There's growing problems on the motorways today; increases in volumes of traffic and reductions in patience.
Don't know what the solution is but it's just getting worse. Maybe some kind of traffic warden system, whereby people being silly (driving forever in lane 2, tailgating, agressive undertaking/cutting in) are sent to a sin-bin for half an hour. No fine or points, just a little time to reflect. And persistent offenders should be shot. Only joking.
Lee.
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As a regular M4 user, from Heathrow to Maidenhead, these middle lane drivers never fail to amaze me. It's a regular thing that both inside lanes are choked when the outside is totally free. Then of course, they start to move into the outside lane usually with a legal queue of cars making progress in the outside lane.
One of my mates drives for the police on the M40. I asked him about overtaking and staying in the middle lane after a very bad trip to Warwick once with lots of caravans in the outside lane.
He recommends that if you can drive for more than 10 seconds in the lane to the left of you, then you should pull over. The old bill call them CLODs, Centre Lane Owner Drivers. He would like to be able to prosecute them as he feels they are reponsible for a lot of accidents.
The middle lane is for overtaking as it is the inside lane. You should also move into the middle lane to allow driver filtering onto the motorway to make progress.
Your car should always end up in the outside lane.
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Are all these "recommended" timings in the Highway Code?
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It's only an offence to undertake when you are not part of a queue making progress due to heavy traffic.
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And it ain't just motorways! I drive the A556 dual carriageway from Northwich all the way up to where it meets the M56 - People just seem to assume they're going to meet something they'll need to overtake at some point and sit in the outside lane. What is the answer? Some will not even take the hint when you drive close behind them and I am not one for confrontational driving. I usually do what Stuart does, pull into the left hand lane and sail past about 20 cars, all sat in the outside lane for no reason and have a good smile at them all. In effect we are all doing exactly the opposite of what it says in the highway code!
I think if the Police made it a serious offence to do it perhaps it'd help, still, not as much money to be made out of it as speeding GATSOs perhaps?....
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Michael wrote:
"Your car should always end up in the outside lane."
Bit of terminology confusion, don't you mean the inside ('slow') lane?
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He's reading from right to left using the centra reservation as the starting point (which I think is the strictly correct thing to do isn't it).
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Matt wrote:
"He's reading from right to left using the central reservation as the starting point (which I think is the strictly correct thing to do isn't it)."
As long as we all understand. But I'd say most people would say inside lane (slow lane) or I'm using the outside (fast) lane. Sorry I don't mean to be pedantic, I just wouldn't want someone who was asking about lane discipline to end up with the wrong impression.
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I've always used inside lane/slow lane, I've never heard it the other way around
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Stu wrote:
>
> Matt wrote:
> "He's reading from right to left using the central
> reservation as the starting point (which I think is the
> strictly correct thing to do isn't it)."
>
> As long as we all understand. But I'd say most people would
> say inside lane (slow lane) or I'm using the outside (fast)
> lane. Sorry I don't mean to be pedantic, I just wouldn't want
> someone who was asking about lane discipline to end up with
> the wrong impression.
I've always used "lane 1, lane 2, lane 3, etc.", where lane 1 is next to the
hard shoulder...
/john
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Sue
Whilst I also do not condone the aggressive driving of the person in the Passat, I am afraid that I think that you were in the wrong lane. As you write:
"...Someone in a Passat overtook me, then cut in front of me rather closer than
I would have liked, then moved very quickly into the left hand lane, almost
as if he (or it could have been she) was making the point that I was in the
wrong lane.
I considered whether I should also be in the left hand lane, and thought,
no, there's another string of lorries ahead and I won't want to get stuck
behind them. Sure enough, as I get to the end of this thought Passat driver
pulls out in front of me - again closer than I would have liked - and shoots
off past the lorries, which I also overtook a minute later..."
Thus, there was time, after overtaking you, for the person in the Passat to move into the inside lane. You also state that you overtook the lorries about one minute later. If you were driving at sixty mph, the lorries would have been one mile ahead. I, therefore, think that you answer you own question.
On a more general note, I often feel that people who do not move into the inside (slow) lane are scared that they will be trapped. From this, I deduce that they are poor drivers. Whilst I do not claim to be perfect, when driving on the motorway, I always try to be aware of every vehicle around me, their relative speed, intentions, and so on. Thus, if you see a car pull back into the inside lane, but still travelling relatively quickly, you appreciate that they will want to pull out again when the lane is blocked. Thus, you prepare to leave enough room for them and I also flash my lights for a short space of time to indicate that I have understood that they wish to pull out. There are of course times when I am ready to overtake such cars and leave enough room for them to pull out but they do not indicate their intentions. I then consider that they may be waiting because they are about to turn off or their mobile phone has rung and they have slowed down so they can talk. So, I proceed to overtake them. Occassionally, this is the case, but other times, their brake lights suddenly light up because they are, as they say, trapped.
The conclusion is that, if they had been constantly aware of what was going on, indicated early to be allowed out around the blockage in the inside lane, as well as monitoring the speeds of the cars behind them, they would not end up trapped. Again, by pulling back in to the inside lane and indicating early drivers of faster cars behind, like the Passat, are generally appreciative when they see what you are doing and allow you to pull out again, often with the falsh of the lights, or pull out one lane further to make room for you. Sue, it should also be noted that you may be the fastest car on the road and so you will never be trapped behind the lorries because no vehicle is currently driving faster than you to trap you.
(Disclaimer!!! I appreciate that all of the comments are not in accordance with the Highway Code but do believe that they represent real life on the motorway).
Andy
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Small pedantic point:
Sort-a-quote,
Travelling at 60mph and took a minute to overtake lorries means they must have been a mile ahead....
ONLY if they were stationary!!
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I think 'undertaking' could do with a bit of defining.
Pulling over (ie moving left) in order to cut round the inside (left) of a slower-moving vehicle, and then to move back out (right) again is clearly dangerous and illegal.
Staying in a queue of traffic that just happens to be moving faster than the one to its right is both sensible and legal.
But being the only occupant of a lane on the left and approaching the back of a line of slower traffic on the right, it is surely perfectly correct to carry straight on and 'undertake' it?
As I have always understood the rule, it is only an offence to change lane deliberately in order to undertake. After all, joining traffic frequently has no choice but to undertake, if all the cars in the inner (left) lane have moved out of the way into the middle lane. To avoid undertaking by slowing down on joining the motorway, letting all the middle lane overtake, then moving over into the outermost lane and finally back across to the inner (left) lane would be a nonsense.
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Often I find that when overtaking a lorry who is himself exceeding the limit it takes quite a while to get past at 70mph.
When you get a BMW driver doing a ton who brakes at the last minute and tailgates you it is wrong to say the least.
This kind of behaviour may lead to people moving out into the middle lane or outside lane on a dual carriageway a bit too early. To avoid pulling out on the car and possibly causing an accident.
Whilst I hate middle lane hoggers I can understand that this is the kind of situation that makes them behave this way.
Increase the speed limit to 80 and then enforce it strictly.
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Having done more miles than I care to remember over the past month on various motorways around the country the one thing I have noticed is that lane discipline on our roads is appalling.
Example 1: Travelled back from Stratford-upon-Avon back to York on a Saturday night setting off at 10pm (traffic extremely light) and found cars driving along in the middle lane with no other vehicle around them for at least 0.5 miles either way. Even after driving up in the 'slow' lane from some considerable distance behind most people just didn't click. Then following my safe overtaking manoeuvre they still sat there as I went round them and back into the slow lane.
Example 2: Travelling on M1 southbound on a Sunday afternoon 4.30pm-ish during the mad rush to get down South
Lane 3 (nearest central reservation) - heaving to point of slowing down/stopping
Lane 2 - moderate traffic
Lane 1 -light traffic
As I was driving a large white(!) hire van obviously I had to
travel using Lanes 1 and 2 in a sensible manner and leave the fools behind ;-)
Example 1: Sheer stupidity
Example 2: Selfishness (I'm not letting you overtake because my need to get to wherever is greater than yours)
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Whenever I drive in the USA I am always impressed by the system they adopt there. It is exactly the opposite to ours, i.e. there is no requirement to keep to the inside lane unless overtaking. You can pass a vehicle on either side. The result is that in really heavy traffic (like around Newark airport), all the lanes are used equally, so you can get a much heavier volume of traffic onto the same road without everything grinding to a halt.
Of course, it means that you have to use your mirrors and be aware of the traffic around you, so it wouldn't work over here - you'd get a sort of 'Massacre of the Volvos' effect as clueless drivers move straight from middle lane to motorway exit without indicating or looking in their mirrors, and get run into by a 38 ton artic coming fast up the inside.
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After driving in the USA this summer (first time driving a another country) I found the whole freeway, any lane system, to be quite effective. It gets a little funny when you get to turn offs though as these can be found on the left and the right of the road. Got caught on the wrong side a couple of times when habit brought me into the slow lane to turn off.
I notice there were a number of signs encouraging slower traffic to move to the right, but I don't think I saw anyone going at less that 10mph over the limit.
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After driving in the USA this summer (first time driving a another country) I found the whole freeway, any lane system, to be quite effective. It gets a little funny when you get to turn offs though as these can be found on the left and the right of the road. Got caught on the wrong side a couple of times when habit brought me into the slow lane to turn off.
I notice there were a number of signs encouraging slower traffic to move to the right, but I don't think I saw anyone going at less that 10mph over the limit.
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Some sound advice well put.
There is another slant to this conundrum, and I may be paranoid, but it depends on what you are driving and what is about to overtake you. I use the A1 in North Yorkshire/Co Durham nearly every day, alternates between 2 lane dual and 2 lane Mway. I know that, while driving the Synergie people carrier, having moved out of the way of a faster car in lane 2, and wanting to overtake another truck, I stand a good chance of fitting in to the traffic flow if I plan ahead, signal in good time and nail it to join faster moving traffic. Often I get a friendly non-Highway Code flash encouraging me to pull out.
However, if I'm driving the AX, the story is completely different. I have been driving the AX a lot recently following an embarrassing DIY incident with the brakes...
If I signal to pull out into a likely-looking gap, the car in lane 2 will often accelerate to close the gap. Why? Even when I am abreast of a truck, I get flashed to pull over. (where? under the trailer?). With a clear road behind in lane 2, overtaking a line of trucks so close you couldn't drop a football between them, cars will come up behind, from miles away or even from a slip road, to a tailgating position until there's a gap for me to pull into.
Not wanting to collect points on my licence, I try and maintain an indicated 75-80. Is this too slow?
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Darcy,
You make a good point. When I am driving my car generally feel I am treated reasonably by other road users, the exception being the serial tailgaters.
However when I am in SWMBO's car, 12+ year old Nova well past it's prime, (plus in doom blue) driving in the same manner speed etc its mayhem. Attitude of other users seems to be get out my way in that heap, shouldn't be on the road etc etc.
For a time in the old place I thought it was because a month or so after I took delivery of current motor, the boys in blue received a number of almost identical models, some of which are in the same colour (white BTW no I didn't pick the colour) some of which are/were unmarked. So I thought maybe its because folks are bit wary in case its an unmarked jobbie, but it appears others get the same treatment re new/old + big/small cars. Strange thought processes some folks must have.
regds,
Stuart
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I have found that whether slower moving cars ahead stay out of the way, depends almost entirely on the car I am driving. The best car I ever had for clearing the road ahead was a white Mk2 Astra GTE with a big pair of Hella spotlights on the front (I was much younger then, and it was just a phase I was going through, honest). I have never known traffic get out of the way so quickly - I'm sure people thought it was a police car. 1981 quad-headlight Audi Coupe was a good path-clearer as well - presumably all those images of rallying Quattros from the early 80s have stayed in the public subconscious at some level. Golf GL (quad headlamps) didn't get held up often, but driving a Ciroen AX I seemed to spend half my time hard on the brakes as some idiot ambled out into my lane without indicating, and the rest of the time with my foot flat on the floor trying to regain the speed I had been forced to lose. And as for driving a Mk1 Fiesta round the M25 - don't even think about it. I consider myself lucky to have survived.
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Richard Hall wrote:
>
> I have found that whether slower moving cars ahead stay out
> of the way, depends almost entirely on the car I am driving.
An ex-girlfriend's mother with a big Merc and a 10 year old Astra said exactly the same.
Unfortunately she reckoned the Rozzers were also more aware of her. ;-(
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A recent Scotland trip showed me the 'joys' of the M6 where you have to do at least 100 mph to even think about joining the fast lane. At one point we were doing a steady 85mph in the middle lane (hey, things come up fast in the slow lane at 85 OK) and a family in a BMW doing about 95mph undertook us,
Both cars inhabitants giving the other what could only be described as enigmatic looks.
dan
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Thanks for some thoughtful and helpful responses. I've carried on thinking about it in the light of these, and I'm sure that the gaps into which Passat Wally weaved his merry way were a lot less than the 49 car lengths recommended by Independent Observer. My 'minute' was not a precise measurement of time - car clock unreadable and funnily enough I wasn't timing things on my watch!
And unfortunately I've never driven anything which had the clout to move others over! Coupled with the handicap of my gender ...
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I found the AX experience interesting, invariably when my wife drove it she was tailgated, but I had no problems. Perhaps the silhouette of a 6'7" big bloke, blocking the light out helps. Perhaps Halfords could market cardboard cut outs to put behind petite drivers to discourage Wallies?
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The best path clearer I remember was a blue XK150 hardtop. Owing to a procurement problem it had one large Cibie spot in the colour of the car and one in chrome, both with black covers when mimsing; this in the days when the nice traffic police (you have to say that on this site, or you get into trouble)had similarly coloured Mk IIs with odd gadgets in front, like what I think was a loudspeaker in black, of a similar size. It was very obvious when those in front woke up, looked in their mirror for the first time that week, and panicked!
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Tomo wrote:
> a blue XK150.
I love it when you talk dirty to me Tomo!!! ;-)
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Strangely I find that big, old (10 years plus) cars clear a path very well in town: "I just don't care," they say. "And if we crash it will cost you more than it costs me." But on the motorway it is a different story, probably because they put you right where people want you: in a low income bracket.
Chris
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I'd question who had the lower income - someone tootling around in a banger, meeting the odd bill here and there or the shiny new car owner waving goodbye to 300-400 quid a month.
That's a lot of money that could be better spent on pies and videogames :)
Lee.
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Lee H wrote:
>
> I'd question who had the lower income - someone tootling
> around in a banger, meeting the odd bill here and there or
> the shiny new car owner waving goodbye to 300-400 quid a month.
>
> That's a lot of money that could be better spent on pies and
> videogames :)
TRUE!
I dunno about the rvisitors here but I've just put the price of a Mondeo into a new house.
I could have had the Mondeo but in 20 years time I doubt I'll be thinking I wish I'd bought a better car back in 2001 and put the house off a bit...
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Ah, but. When some people see an old car they see someone who is forced to make the kind of choices you describe, not someone who is making a sound financial decision. Incidentally, two or three years back Bob Geldof was driving around Faversham in a battered mid-1980s Escort. So it doesn't always follow, but then he doesn't waste cash on haircuts either.
Chris
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I work at Exeter Airport and have to take the M5 for around 13 miles. Like Darcy I drive an AX (not through choice, it's my mums and I am driving it till I can afford a decent car, not easy on an apprentice wage!!!). As it doesn't have that much power, I tend to pull out to overtake a little earlier than I should. If I don't, I will be stuck behind HGV's and Grandma and Grandad until I get a person polite enough to pull out to let me overtake (yes, they exist!!!).
After overtaking, I normally find a good line of HGV's and "slower" cars in the left hand lane all doing around 50mph. As I don't wan't to get stuck behind this lot I stay in the middle lane till at around 75mph till I find the beginning of the line then pull in. I don't see this as lane hogging as I am overtaking the slower vehicles in the left hand lane, but I still get the BMW's, Mercs, Mondeos and Vectras tailgating me when they have a third lane to use!!!
Relating to the undertaking incident, I was driving between J31 and J29 on the M5 in the left hand lane and was approaching a Toyota Avensis with the new style plates in the centre lane doing a steady 60. I moved out to the middle lane to go to overtake it in the third land but couldn't for all the BMW's etc who wouldn't let me out. After around 5 minutes, I got pi***d off and moved back into the left hand lane and undertook the Avensis. I got a beep of the horn, flash of the lights and a very polite hand signal from the driver.
Just goes to show how ignorant some people can be!!
Cheers
Olaf
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I wonder what happened to Bob Geldof's Escort? You could make good money out of that.
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