A friend has a T reg Petrol Freelander that has been running warmer than usual for a couple of days. They've taken it to 2 garages, including LandRover who both say the Head Gasket has gone. Fine.
LandRover want to put a new engine in it. This seems excessive to me. I would have thought that head maybe, but a new engine? It didn't grind to a halt in a cloud of steam or anything dramatic. It's been regularly serviced, hasn't done monster miles and isn't thrashed.
Is there a history of Freelanders overheating and needing new engines as a reult???
Simon
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Er, yes.
Car By Car Breakdown states "Quite common for 1.8 to lose its coolant through inlet manifold gasket failure and small coolant capacity of engine leads to severe overheating." www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm
Watchdog ran a campaign about this a short while back. The K series engine as fitted to the Freelander is a dog. The Freelander is, on the whole, a bit of a pup itself.
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These cars are junk, pure and simple. Fix it up and get rid ASAP.
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Much coming to light on this problem on the K-series 1.8 petrol model despite LR saying its down to poor maintenance.
FL's have a 3 year warranty. Out of this date LR MAY look at the case if it has been regularly serviced at a LR Dealer.
Have a look at the second story down on the following page:
www.tinyurl.com/36m8p
Note you cannot get the link to read the page. LRO want you to buy the Jan 2002 Magazine with its full page item on page 192 which explains why and which vehicle VIN No's are particularly at risk.
DVD
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As your were:
Should be Jan 2004 magazine
DVD
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Should read Jan 2004.... sorry dropped toast.
DVD
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ND said...The K series engine as fitted to the Freelander is a dog. The Freelander is, on the whole, a bit of a pup itself
Rather too close to naming and shaming in my view!
Err no the engine isn't a dog at all, when on song they are rather nice and have been fitted to a massive amount of models with great success.
And if a pup is supposed to be nearly as bad as a dog then I don't think the Freelander is that. For the class it is aimed at it mostly does the job and the huge majority of owners I know love them, many buy again.
All cars have "issues", well known to us in the trade. It is knowing and understanding these aspects that enables the thinking motor engineer to minimise (or remove completely) the impact of these potential issues on the owners.
So yes it does usually need a complete engine replacement and you might be interested to know every one under 40K I've been involved with has had Land Rover replace it without charge. They have carried out some mods to sort this now.
M.M
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Not naming and shaming as empirical evidence of widespread problem already in the public domain and accepted as worthy of attention by manufacturer.
{licks finger and marks a "one" in the air}
:o)
Who's the daddy!?
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All cars have "issues", well known to us in the trade. It is knowing and understanding these aspects that enables the thinking motor engineer to minimise (or remove completely) the impact of these potential issues on the owners.
Issues = inherent faults due to bad design.
In the BAe days I did quite a lot of consultancy work for Rover at Gaydon (including doing the boost-type power supply for the unitised injectors on the DI Diesel). A lot of the development work was rushed and done on a shoestring, much of it by consultants like myself bought in at the last minute and on a temporary basis to keep costs down. It is no wonder that they have problems.
M.M. - you loyalty is commendable, but misplaced IMHO. Users these days want reliable and durable cars. With even prestige brands suffering savage depreciation no one wants to spend big money on major repairs to 3+ year-old cars.
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>>Issues = inherent faults due to bad design
Yes that is quite true but all cars have some issues. It may be corrosion, expensive servicing, poor seats, dreadful ride, rubbish handling, wicked depreciation or a whole host of electronic/mechanical problems.
I mean to take a random example [ ;-) ] No Dosh's car has several issues but does he call it a dog, would I be rude enough to call it a dog? I think not! No I guess on balance he likes it so that's fine.
I respect you opinion from an engineering/design perspective and I guess many would give more weight to that compared with my experience at the sharp end of things (maintenance).
However I really do find if you know and understand issues with specific vehicles it is possible to prevent them being a major factor in the overall ownership experience of a particular make/model. I look after a wide range of vehicles once they are 1-3yrs old and have a good understanding of the real impact any problems have on their owners. It leads to me telling folks looking at a replacement vehicle.."well this car is known to suffer from X but what we can do is Y and then you should have few problems"
>>your loyalty is commendable, but misplaced IMHO
Loyalty is not really the best word. More that I am uncomfortable with loudly shouted opinion that may not be strictly accurate and devalues a vehicle in folks eyes when it isn't fully justified. You will note my contributions are rarely seriously negative about any particular vehicle unless it is the only way to explain a factual situation.
And with a good 25yr plus understanding of the car business as a whole added to day to day technical experience things I post here are rarely misplaced.
And with that I must hit the Christmas shopping queue in town!! I'll see what you all think later.
M.M
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M.M's comments are valid: whilst the car is looked after by a caring and knowledgeable specialist.
But I am a consumer: and want a product which is tolerant of the general kind of abuse most cars have to endure when 3-7 years old. Note I said tolerant.. I do not expect them to last 25,000 miles between oil changes but also I do not expect them to suffer a total engine failure costing loadsofdosh to put right because the cooling system design is marginal and there is little or no leeway when things deteriorate with age.
Look at Ford Fiestas.. Mark3: simple, crude, prone to rust but tolerant of a lot of abuse and neglect and still keep running with simple maintenance. Now that's my benchmark for reliability.. if a car can't hack that kind of use then it's badly designed.
Look at washing machines.. who tolerates a machine that requires freqeuent repairs?.. I know after suffering the unreliability of UK made models we bought a German made one in 1995: still going strong .
I don't expect white goods to break down and I don't expect cars to suffer from design or manufacturing defects that make them unreliable..
If the manufacturer makes modeld which are unreliable I just don't buy them . Full stop.
It's a free world and we have consumer choice.. anyone who buys a car requiring specialised and careful attention should be buying a Porsche Ferrari or other exotic. I'm sorry but if it's a mass market manudfacturer then imo it's not worthy of consideration.
madf
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Look at washing machines.. who tolerates a machine that requires freqeuent repairs?.. I know after suffering the unreliability of UK made models we bought a German made one in 1995: still going strong .
I bought an expensive German washing machine for the same reason.
Several new motors and umpteen engineers had visited and fitted so many parts over the years, eventualy......
FIVE years after we bought it we got the answer.
Sir, I have fitted yet another new control board. They have now discovered that the old ones were not tolerant of mains fluctuations.
All I know is that it has behaved since except for two items.
New brushes for the motor were £25 plus plus, expensive but simple.
The gland on the back of the pump leaked. Motor was OK but £75 for whole unit cos the motor cannot be detached. Plus the whole front of machine had to be removed. Crazy.
There is a lot of poor design around and some of it is German.
Rant over
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I think all cars do have issues and that understanding them can definately help to minimise occurrence of these issues. i also admire M.M's tendency to avoid harshly or unfairly criticising any car. i have certainly noticed that his comments are seldom negative as he says, just reasoned, useful and informative
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More that I amuncomfortable with loudly shouted opinion that may not be strictly accurate and devalues a vehicle in folks eyes when it isn't fully justified. You will note my contributions are rarely seriously negative about any particular vehicle unless it is the only way to explain a factual situation.
M.M.
I don't regard my post as being 'loudly shouted opinion'. Some cars are much less reliable, durable and less well designed than others. That's a fact, not an opinion.
I accept that cars can have inherent defects, but still be a 'good buy' for some customers. For example, I have owned Alfa Romeo's in the past - I bought them knowing I would likely have some problems, but I wanted the aethetics and the driving experience.
The problem that Rover have had is that over the years they have been starved of money to develop their products properly. Some of their engineering has been downright amateurish (e.g. the timing belt tensioner on the M16 engine provokes particular feelings of horror). The repeated use of poor quality electrical control module suppliers is another problem (I won't name and shame).
None of this is a problem if the customer knows what they are getting into. The snag comes when someone just wants a vehicle to get the kids to school, get to work and do the shopping. They want something that doesn't need specialist attention between services and doesn't have too many quirks and doesn't hit them with a £3k repair bill after 3 years/36k miles.
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>>I don't regard my post as being 'loudly shouted opinion'
No Aprilia, even if I don't agree with your take on things sometimes, they are never that.
I was meaning in general I rise to "soundbite" descriptions of various vehicles/engines/problems. Words like dog, useless, rubbish, carp and so on often help the reader little and turn folks away from really understanding the underlying issues.
I accept the Rover company problems but do not want to grind them into the ground as they have managed to produce some very acceptable vehicles during this difficult period. Where they go from here I really don't know. However as part of my advice "package" for buyers looking at Rovers I do comment they are the sort of company that could go down the pan overnight with an almost impossible spares situation for anything other than service parts.
Don't get me started on timing belt tensioners. I have a selection here to show folks who wonder why they need changing and why some are liable to hasten a disaster. You know the best built tensioner, the Peugeot/Citroen XUD one. Besides it the Ford 1.8TD OE tensioner supplied by Ford as part of their kit looks like a Christmas cracker toy.
I agree that it is wrong for a customer to pick up the tab for a £3K engine replacement at three years old. But my experience so far is that we've managed to get LR to pay for new engines on the ones I've actually advised on.
And, as I so often post on the Warranty threads, my actual repair costs database going back many years confirms major disasters are almost unknown here... right across the makes**. The main costs are proper servicing but even these are right at the bottom of the pile compared with purchase, financing and depreciation costs.
**Well there is one make where every one I look after has been a complete disaster and I always say avoid, but I bet 15% of visitors here have one so....
M.M
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WOW! What a thread! Who said the Backroom was dead!?
Very informative comments and much to learn from here..
I don't feel the engine needs replacement for this fault. Has the oil & water mixed?
Whereabouts is the car right now?
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groups.msn.com/honestjohn/problems.msnw?Page=1 - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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Well trousered MM Sir
Wish I could speed type on the article I mentioned but here is some crux.
"Rover, MG and LR technical specialists were consulted. Despite in-depth investigation, none could ID an engine/manufacturing defect.....
.....the complex coolant route demands careful filling and venting to exclude air.....The implications? Servicing and maintenance must be carried out by competent technicians who have access to all necessary servicing info and tools....
.....If the engine running fine, keep on top of checks and ensure vehicle regularly serviced. It is the drivers responsibility to continually monitor its performance and report symptoms early, rather than too late."
That final sentence just about sums it up and as MM says a properly looked after vehicle gives hardly any problems.
DVD
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"**Well there is one make where every one I look after has been a complete disaster and I always say avoid, but I bet 15% of visitors here have one so....
M.M"
LOL!
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MM its gotta be Ford? I've had 3 (Sierra, Granada, Fiesta) over 15 years and 0 mechanical or body faults..as opposed to Rover or Audi or BMW, or Mercedes or Jaguar..or Lotus (!)
madf
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I wish Toyota made washing machines and central heating boilers.
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Sorry to interfere.But there are other car`s that have inherent problems not just rover`s.I think most customer`s realise the problem`s they may face.The problem is can any one say they are likely to encounter these problem`s I think it is unlikely especially if some one you know has bought one and has not had any problem`s.As for rover`s Being amateurish look what they have had to put up with I reckon they have done very well so far in pulling the co back as rover`s now go you could be looking at far worse
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I was under the assumpion they are a 4x4 not a standard car.in which case you are wrong.the engine that is used is not as bad as you make out.if it was why do so many buy them they are no worse than a lot of other`s and I haven`t had many probs with the k series
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the engine that is used is not as bad as you make out.if it was why do so many buy them
That is one of life's mysteries.
I think part of the problem with the K-series is that it uses long bolts on account of the sandwhich construction. These are much longer than 'normal' head bolts. Their length means that any stretch is proportionately greater than with a shorter bolt. Thus, as the bolts stretch over time, the clamping force on the head gasket is reduced and HG will fail more easily.
Rover also made a cock-up with the cooling system design. The water jacket is very thin and silts up easily. They also put the thermostat in the wrong place. I think there was a modification kit to blank off the old thermostat housing and relocate the thermostat to the bottom hose (?) - something like that anyway. They also tinkered with the head gasket and dowel materials.
All this 'development' work should have been done years back before the engine was launched - not at the customer's expense.
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Be inclind to make sure the thermostat is working correctly if it is sticking closed then suddenly opening will cause that.Bearing in mind some garage`s don`t check.I don`t have that motor but a similar thing happened to me on rover 420 gsi I may be wrong but think is the same or similar engine.
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Completely different engine mate; the T series you have in your 420 is an iron block/alloy head engine whereas the K is a much more heat-intolerant all-alloy motor.
Incidentally, the K series thermostat is a pig to change...compared to the T series' one!
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groups.msn.com/honestjohn/problems.msnw?Page=1 - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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I understood (from a conversation with a Rover design engineer a couple of years back) that the thermostat on the 1.8 K-series had been located in the 'wrong' place. The cylinder head was actually overheating before the thermostat would open. This was leading to early HG failure on lots of engines - so they had to provide a mod kit to relocate the thermostat. Only place to put it was into one of the hoses.
Worth checking that the mod has been done on any vehicle made up to about late 2001, I think.
I am working from memory so the above may not be 100% correct - but it is not too inaccurate.
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hmm remind me never to buy anything with a Rover designed engine....
madf
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Thank`s for that DL my mate has got a freelander and he reckons he was told by rover`s it was the same engine.As I haven`t looked I should not have passed comment.Apart from the fact I have owned a rover for the most part of 15 years also worked on them for others.I do like em that`s why I still have one.and judging by what I`ve seen so far with other motor`s I will stick with them.All comments taken into account
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