Red Light

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Sat 25 Apr 2020 11:11
Red Light - SkellerZ

I stopped at a red light with a camara but after a length of time I noticed a green light and went on ahead, only to realise that the green light was the next set of lights. By that time I had already gone through the last set of lights that was still on red. This is my first red light offence and I was wondering if the course would be available to me even though It was some time after the light turned red? I've been driving for 2 years at the end of this month and also did a speed awareness course last year around the same month.

Edit: this happend three days ago in my work van which is hired.

Edited by SkellerZ on 25/04/2020 at 11:13

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Sat 25 Apr 2020 16:03
Red Light - Bromptonaut

It's a fairly common scenario. Even heard of it as a railway phenomenon; they use the term 'read through' when a driver passes a danger signal having seen a less restrictive aspect further up the line.

All you can do is wait. They have 14 days to send notice to the owner but as that's a hire company you might be hanging on for a while as (a) the council notify the hire co.(b) they notify your employer and (c) your employer identifies you as driver on the day.

Normal rule on courses, whether driver improvement or speed awareness is only one, of either type, in three years. However, at least for a while different forces and different providers were not good at comparing notes. I did a driver improvement course in Leicester in 2014 (similar offence to yours - read through to a green ) and about a year later a speed one in Northants relating to an offence in Cornwall .

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Sat 25 Apr 2020 18:16
Red Light - ExA35Owner

However - seems like no courses at present. Might therefore be an offer of a fixed penalty.

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Sat 25 Apr 2020 19:50
Red Light - SkellerZ

So I'm looking at a fixed penalty and 3 points? As this happend in the same city and I've already done a course within 3 years.

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Sat 25 Apr 2020 19:50
Red Light - SkellerZ

(Duplicate post)

Edited by Avant on 25/04/2020 at 22:57

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Sun 26 Apr 2020 21:17
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

Unlike the drivers CPC they are not doing virtual courses for road traffic offences, so it will be a fixed penalty, £ 100 and 3 points.

http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/RunningaARedLight.html

I do not know if they will offer a course but defer it until this virus is dealt with, but doubtful as some say it may still be with us up to xmas.

Ps you do not do the course and get 3 pts so you would not have got 3 pts for your last speeding offence if you done the course.

Call these people and ask them, they will give you all the info you need. 03 number so its local rates, or free on certain mobile tariffs and local rates on a landline.

Edited by Avant on 27/04/2020 at 17:07

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Mon 27 Apr 2020 16:15
Red Light - thunderbird

Unlike the drivers CPC they are not doing virtual courses for road traffic offences, so it will be a fixed penalty, £ 100 and 3 points.

http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/RunningaARedLight.html

I do not know if they will offer a course but defer it until this virus is dealt with, but doubtful as some say it may still be with us up to xmas.

Ps you do not do the course and get 3 pts so you would not have got 3 pts for your last speeding offence if you done the course.

Call these people and ask them, they will give you all the info you need. 03 number so its local rates, or free on certain mobile tariffs and local rates on a landline.

I am not clicking on either of those links but the 2nd one looks very odd.

What on earth could an asbestos awareness course have to do with driving through a red light.

Is it just possible someone is trying to sell us some processed meat products?

Edited by Avant on 27/04/2020 at 17:06

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Mon 27 Apr 2020 16:42
Red Light - Bromptonaut

What on earth could an asbestos awareness course have to do with driving through a red light.

Is it just possible someone is trying to sell us some processed meat products?

He's been a regular poster for some years, albeit with a change of user name at one point. Some of us have regarded his examples and interpretation of laws arguable (to put it mildly) but unless he's been hijacked.....

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Mon 27 Apr 2020 17:07
Red Light - Avant

I've no idea what's going on here, but I have deleted the links about asbestos.

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Mon 27 Apr 2020 21:06
Red Light - Middleman

Please, please, please take no notice of much of what is advised on, "no penalty points". Not unusually for that site there is so much wrong with it, far too much to go into here. But this in particular must be pointed out:

"If the photographic evidence is inconclusive it is debatable whether or not you should sign the NIP, as it is effectively and admission of guilt and could potentially be brought up against you as such if the case goes to court"

Apart from the fact that it is not the NIP that should be signed but the Section 172 notice requesting driver's details, it is not remotely debateable whether or not the document should be signed. Failure to do so (in England & Wales, but not in Scotland) will result in a conviction under S172 and six points. This precise matter was taken all the way to the European Court of Human Rights by Idris Francis and Gerard O'Halloran in 2007. The court ruled that the recipient must sign the response. Failure to do so falls foul of the S172 legislation and his right not to self-incriminate was not breached. If you're so inclined you can read the full judgement:

hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{"dmdocnumber":["819526"],"itemid":["001-81359"]}

The response is not an admission of guilt but will be used to prove who was driving at the time of the allegation. Without it a prosecution for the underlying offence will not succeed as there is no evidence to prove who was driving. Failing to sign the S172 is a sure fire way to convert £100 fine and three points into a court appearance and on conviction a hefty fine, six points and insurance grief for five years.

The site's accompanying advice to ask for photographic evidence, have a look at it and declare that you have exercised all reasonable diligence to identify the driver but cannot do so is equally likely to end in the same result. Avoid it like the plague.

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Mon 27 Apr 2020 22:58
Red Light - Avant

Everyone, please take Middleman's advice, which is always sensible and well thought through.

Edited by Avant on 27/04/2020 at 22:58

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Tue 28 Apr 2020 10:23
Red Light - ExA35Owner

Specifically there is a subtle difference between asking for photographic evidence (which you are not entitled to receive at that point) and photographs to help identify the driver (which the police will usually provide). Once evidence has been asked for, photos won't be provided. Often of course the photo is at night or from behind the vehicle so the photo won't help anyway.

As to claiming all reasonable diligence, the courts will expect checks of bank card payment, mobile phone logs and location reports, and possibly much more. A simple claim "I've tried and don't know" will not cut it.

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Tue 28 Apr 2020 14:58
Red Light - Cris_on_the_gas

Back to the OP he might be lucky if the camera was a film rather than digital version. Most likely would be a Gatso RLC-36 and I think these were the most popular in the UK. Well not popular per say but should I say more numerous !

AFAIK Police forces don't bother trying to develop the old films anymore but the camera will still flash.

As previously stated it's a waiting game for the OP following issue of the NIP and s.172 obligations are fulfilled by the registered keeper and his employer.

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Wed 29 Apr 2020 21:42
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

Asbestos ? Nothing at all. let me check the link. oops.

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Wed 29 Apr 2020 21:44
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

There is only 1 link from what I can see, the red light link.

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Wed 29 Apr 2020 21:46
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

This is just part of the page that the link will take you to, I have no idea what the ell you are on about with this asbestos rubbish.

The majority of people caught ‘jumping’ a red light are caught out by the dreaded yellow peril: a safety camera. If a vehicle is snapped going through a red light, then the registered keeper can expect to receive a Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) through the post within 14 days of the alleged offence.

I got a ‘Conditional Offer’ – What Does this Mean?

Many straightforward offences of this nature are dealt with by way of a conditional offer of a Fixed Penalty Notice. This means that a form is sent out alongside the NIP that asks the registered keeper to name the driver at the time the offence was committed. Essentially, it asks them to provide an admission of guilt, and in return, offers a fixed penalty charge rather than a trip to court.

You will have to go to the page to read the rest.

As for my advice it is sound, and when doubt has been given that it is correct, then I have ALWAYS BACKED IT UP WITH PAGES FROM A GOV WESITE, HIGHWAY CODE OR POLICE SITE. But some people refuse to believe any or all of these and insist they are still right.

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 29/04/2020 at 21:53

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Wed 29 Apr 2020 22:26
Red Light - Brit_in_Germany

From the wording of the original links they were about how to handle asbestos. They have been deleted by Avant.

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Wed 29 Apr 2020 23:31
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2015/10/21/failing-to-provide-driver-information-your-rights/

This link is from a solicitor ..

It is an offence under section 172 Road Traffic Act 1988 not to reply to the notice. The police can prosecute any person who was sent a notice if they:

  • Do not reply within 28 days; or
  • Do reply but do not identify the driver.

Only part of the page, you will have to read the rest yourself.

How the police deal with failing to provide driver details

If the police think that you have committed the offence of failing to provide driver information they can:

  • Take no action;
  • Issue a fixed penalty for £200 and penalty points; or
  • Prosecute you in the magistrates’ court.

In most cases the police will prosecute.

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Wed 29 Apr 2020 23:34
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

Sorry for so many post but

I invite anyone who disagrees to post info from a 3rd party as I have just done to prove what they say is correct.

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Thu 30 Apr 2020 08:05
Red Light - Brit_in_Germany

You posted a link to the "no points" site. There was a statement on that site which Middleman quoted and stated, quite reasonably, was not good advice. No idea why you are taking this so personally.

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Thu 30 Apr 2020 12:41
Red Light - HGV ~ P Valentine

"Please, please, please take no notice of much of what is advised on"

When someone starts with this how is it not personal ??? 3 decades of commercial driving experience ( not car but work ), I wonder how much experience the person who starts with this has.

Hits a nerve when anyone can start by saying no one else knows what they are talking about.

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Thu 30 Apr 2020 13:30
Red Light - galileo

Some replying have legal qualifications, driving experience is valuable but not a qualification in interpretation of statute law.

Edited by galileo on 30/04/2020 at 13:36

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Thu 30 Apr 2020 13:30
Red Light - galileo

Duplicate post

Edited by galileo on 30/04/2020 at 13:35

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Thu 30 Apr 2020 13:35
Red Light - Bromptonaut

"Please, please, please take no notice of much of what is advised on"

It's not a personal slight but a warning as to the contents of the site you linked to.The bit Middleman deconstructed is plain wrong and risks getting people into a bigger mess than the one they're already in when a S172 hits their doormat.

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Thu 30 Apr 2020 15:13
Red Light - Middleman

"Please, please, please take no notice of much of what is advised on"

When someone starts with this how is it not personal ???

You missed out (either deliberately or by mistake) the last three words (which are the most important). The opening to my post reads "Please, please, please take no notice of much of what is advised on No Penalty Points"

As a professional driver (and a frequent contributor to this forum) you should know that some of the advice given on that site is misleading (to put it kindly). My post was nothing to do with what you'd said. It was to do with the advice provided by NPP to which, for some reason, you provided a link. I have pointed out my particular concerns regarding the issue this OP faces (if he ever receives a NIP and S172 request) which was my aim. I provided links to the ECHR case law which backs up my concern. I did not want him following the advice of NPP which had a very good chance of seeing him end up with six points and an MS90 endorsement code which insurers hate.

There is so much wrong with the NPP advice particularly with regard to the process the recipient of a NIP and S172 notice must adopt. It would be simply better not to provide a link to it as it can cause far more problems than it solves, hence my plea for readers to disregard it. Alas I have not been a professional driver for 30 years. In fact I have never been a professional driver. But, as I've said before, I do know my motoring law.

As an aside, everybody may like to know that some areas are now beginning to roll out online courses, certainly for speeding and I imagine for other offences as time goes on. Sussex and West Yorkshire are two that I know of for certain but I believe initial priority is being given to those who had already accepted the offer of a course before the lockdown began.

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