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My spy in sunny North Wales (Mr Brunstrom's area) tell me that North Wales Police intend to pilot "on the spot fines" in the true sense of the phrase, targetting foreign drivers who currently break the limits. Apparantly nearly 300 cars caught by Speed Cameras in January were registered aborad. I can attest to being overtaken by Irish registered Artics and cars at crazy speeds when on the A55 recently.
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For as long as this remains a discussion concerning "on the spot fines" it will remain in its own thread. As soon as it becomes a more generic speeding thread then it will be moved.
M.
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How enforceable are these fines? I seem to recall reading a few years back something about foreign motorists just ignoring fines as they couldn't be forced to pay while in this country, and it wasn't worth following them up when they'd gone home.
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'How enforceable are the fines?'-
Many years ago whilst driving the family Morris 1800 in central Spain, I didn't quite stop at a halt sign. A Spanish policeman appeared as if by magic and I had to cough up an instant fine(or be arrested..)I think it was 5000Pts.
Couldn't this be implemented here?
P.
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The enforcers of the Congestion Charge claim that they will chase people for payment all over Europe. I think they'll have their work cut out just getting money out of the UK citizens - but we shall see!
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Personally I think that on the spot fines would be a good idea simply because to give a ticket a police officer would therefore have to be on the spot.
In my opinion the greatest drawback to speed cameras has been that they have made for 'lazy' policing of our roads. Cameras may be efficient at catching people breaking limits but there are a hundred and one other things for which they are absolutely useless but which are equally, if not more, hazardous.
The powers that be insist that the number of traffic police has not been reduced but I had a recent experience of an accident on an A-road where two fire engines and an ambulance beat the local police to the scene by five minutes and the traffic police by fifteen. When I mentioned to the traffic officer that I was surprised he had been that long he told me that he was the closest car and had been 16 miles away!
I'm realistic enough to realise that there can't be copper around every corner but obviously if one car is covering an area like that then you must consider yourself pretty unlucky to get pulled for anything other than speeding.
Cockle
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Well said. Cockle.
I am fed up with being tailgated, cut up, turned in front of, overtaken dangerously, rammed, etc., etc. by a variety of drivers who then cruise past mechanical enforcers at 29 mph and resume their antics 50 yards further on.
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Will they be carrying a mobile cash machine in the back of the car?
wouldn't fancy having to take a 50 mile roundtrip just to find a cash till. But hopefully they accept visa ;^)
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I bet these work so well in Europe because the Police often carry guns!
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How can this work? Would this require legislation from Parliament or do existing laws allow for such fines? What would happen if the driver had no money, or not enough money? What about the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise? Even with the dreaded speed cameras you can contest the case. What would happen if the driver refused to pay? Immediate arrest and consequent waste of police time whilst it is dealt with? If there is a mechanism put in place to allow the driver to contest the case then surely he could simply not bother to turn up for any court case or not answer any mail. (original post says this is for foreign drivers). However, if such fines are instigated how long before the scheme becomes more widespread and is extended to all drivers. Another erosion of our civil liberties courtesy of his Tonyness.
Daftest idea I've heard of since the plan to close the A&E and maternity departments on the Isle of Wight.
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Definitely against on the spot fines as it opens the way for all sorts of accusations.
We've read enough of Growler's stuff about the antics in Philipines when a spot of beer money is required. Stories abound of the French police willingness to negotiate if not enough cash is being carried. Now I'm not saying that the UK police would do this, but it would just open the door for accusations from idiots with an axe to grind.
No, regardless of the stupid antics of some drivers my vote is firmly against on the spot.
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Definitely against on the spot fines as it opens the way for all sorts of accusations.
I'd rather pay a few bribes than see a family member or myself lose their license and their job.
Cash you can replace, licenses you can't.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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I agree with FiF's comments about either abuse, or the potential for allegations of abuse.
However, there ought to be something that can be done in the middle. Perhaps if you supply a valid UK driver's licence then there needs to be no on the spot action.
However, if you have a foreign driving licence then something needs to be done. Bear in mind, though, that this is simply retribution and revenue recovery since it will do nothing to amend behaviour or defer offendors.
Presumbly pursuing someone within the EC to pay a fine is not an issue.
Therefore the issue is people from outside the EC. These people have to fill in an immigration form when they land. At present this is retained by immigration.
However in many countries, including the US, a part or duplicate of this form has to be retained in your passport and is checked when you leave. This form could be marked by the police to show an outstanding fine which immigration could then check had been done before the person left the country.
In Chile if you have an outstanding ticket then your immigration files are marked (whether you came in as a tourist, a businessman or whatever, these files exist on computer).
When you go to leave you are asked to pay. If you cannot, then you don't get back in again until its paid + an additional fee of a sizable nature.
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Foreigners are already immune to the speeding laws. The only offence that will be chased abroad is death by dangerous.
What is needed is a way for UK residents to avoid points. On the spot fines with no points would work perfectly.
Without points and courts the police would become popular overnight and all would be well in the firmament.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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I favour on the spot the fines for minor offences because the closer the punishment is to the offence, the more deterence it is likely to have. It would be nice to think that the revenue raised in this way would be hypothecated to driver educational programmes.
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The problem is the accusation of inappropriate behaviour.
We already see accusations of, for example, police beating people.
Now, either they are (which I doubt) in which case hose safe do you feel with such a system which is inevitably open to abuse.
Or the accusations are unfounded, in which case why wouldn't the same or similar people make acusations about misappropriation of fines ?
Either way I think we would be building yet another lose/lose situation for the police.
In any case it is unwise, and unfair, to have the police covering all aspects of the process - detection, charging, punishing. I think even the police would think there needs to be checks and balances in any system.
If people had to go to court within 3 days (assuming that our system could be enhanced to cope) then you would get most people before they left the country.
And Toad, I wouldn't want to avoid points for UK drivers. Now would on-the-spot fines neccessarily replace them.
But I can't give you a foolproof way of making sure you don't get any points or even a fine - don't break the law.
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We already see accusations of, for example, police beating people.
- It's not often I stand up for the police but they do only beat people who thoroughly deserve it. Regular use of the birch would keep prisons empty. Apart from images on TV I have *never* seen a policeman hit anyone. I did once restrain someone from attacking two policeman on the ground. A police woman arrived late and aggressivly told me to let him go. Which I did, at which he immediately carried out the attack he was threatening to do. ;-) Life can be so sweet.
Either way I think we would be building yet another lose/lose situation for the police.
I honestly think getting rid of points would make police hero's again. If it takes on the sopt fines to do that so be it. Nobody objects to fines, it's loss of job that really hurts.
In any case it is unwise, and unfair, to have the police covering all aspects of the process - detection, charging, punishing.
And Toad, I wouldn't want to avoid points for UK drivers. Now would on-the-spot fines neccessarily replace them.
Well if they don't theres no advantage - you might as well jsut send the cash off in the post as hand it over on the spot.!
But I can't give you a foolproof way of making sure you don't get any points or even a fine - don't break the law.
I don't want to get lured into a speeding debate as opposed to a fine debate BUT people ar eopenly taking drugs 15 miles from where I'm sitting with the blessing of the police. Is speeding without crashing really that much worse? I hit 80 on the M23 this morning. I didn't have to turn to crime to fund it - but I will if I lose my job following a ban.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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I must agree with Toad, it is the threat of point for a couple of trivial and non-dangerous lapses which may lead to loss of employment or additional costs way, way above the maximum fine limit for the offence which alienates the motoring public from the police.
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I am quite sure that I am no better a driver than anyone else. However I drive more miles than most. around 1200 miles per week.
I am equally sure that I make mistakes, have lapses (of both a trivial and non-trivial nature) and generally drive like most other people.
But I have no unearned or unjustified points on my licence.
Now how could that be if the entire system is geared at unfairly getting me ?
Maybe I am just lucky ?
And I drive in London and the West Midlands and the motorways in between.
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But I have no unearned or unjustified points on my licence. Now how could that be if the entire system is geared at unfairly getting me ?
Well the clear up rate for burglary is about 15 per cent.
If the ratio of speeding convictions to *reported* incidents of speeding is better than 15 per cent then the police are unfairly getting at you.
Also I can burgle up to 3 times and smoke dope openly as many times as I want without losing my job. Why should speeding be the only offence that you pay for with your career.
Maybe it's my attidude to drugs and burglary that are wrong?
This has become speeding now.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Any criminal conviction and I would lose my job.
But not traffic, although if I couldn't drive then it might become impractical.
But I can be done for speeding four times before I lose my licence.
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Any criminal conviction and I would lose my job.
Let's hope Mathwew Kelly doesn't squeal then!!! ;-)
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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>>et's hope Mathwew Kelly doesn't squeal then!!! ;-)
Please consider yourself insulted in a witty and concise manner which doesn't offend the rules of the Backroom.
And as soon as I can think of such an insult I'll insert it here.
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>>et's hope Mathwew Kelly doesn't squeal then!!! ;-) Please consider yourself insulted in a witty and concise manner which doesn't offend the rules of the Backroom. And as soon as I can think of such an insult I'll insert it here.
LOL!!!!
Just gobbed coffee all over my monitor!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Lucky it wasn't the keyboard.
Take it from me, keyboards and coffee do not mix!
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Lucky it wasn't the keyboard. Take it from me, keyboards and coffee do not mix!
But coffee and monitors do?
Remind me not to let you use my pc!
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To get to the vitals of the monitor you've got to be over it or behind it, in which case you wouldn't be reading the screen and LOL.
Spitting at the screen probably wouldn't do any harm.
However, the keyboard's a different matter!
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"But I can be done for speeding four times before I lose my licence."
Which would not be difficult if you pass ten or more cameras on your way to and from work every day.
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>>Which would not be difficult if you pass ten or more cameras on your way to and from work every day.
Actually it would be impossible if I was not speeding, unless the definition of a momentary lapse is one that continues unabated for about 2 hours.
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Let me get this right - the proposal is that policemen or wardens will actually collect cash fines in the street? So they will carry swags bulging with notes, weighed down with coins? Will they be able to rummage through this lot looking for change? Will they carry portable swipe card machines?
It sounds unbelievable to me - won't a policeman loaded down with money be a trifle vulnerable?
And supposing he sees a real crime being committed - he just ditches it all and gives chase, or ignores the screams for help and hangs tightly onto his money bag I suppose.
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I think you underestimate the ability of Police Forces to act as
a business - Visa and Mastercard will, no doubt be accepted and cash avoided.
If there are any Backroomers in North Wales I would be interested to see how this develops.
I don't think that there are Human Rights issues but I have yet to see any legistlation planned or otherwise but I have no doubt the story is true s it was apparantly printed in the Welsh version of the Liverpool Echo or its equivelent. Or perhaps if Mr Brunstrom pops into the backroom now and again he would care to comment
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