Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford?

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 19:37
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Hi guys,

baby on the way - need a wide car with a big boot to fit in 3 kids. (not the boot!)

My budget is £4500.

My requirements are

1- space, as mentioned above.

2- reliability - can't afford to get stung with a car with lots of issues and costs

3- running cost - need a diesel because I need over 54 mpg and low tax etc

So I have identified either the Ford Focus C-Max - c. 2007 model, 1.6 tdci.

Or the Citroen Xsara Picasso - c. 2008 model 1.6 HDi

Anybody know which is the better buy? They both come with c. 60,000 at that price. The citroen being a year newer. My concerns with citroen are the reliability issues.

Anybody have any advice? Many thanks!

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 20:52
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Collos25

Both cars have almost the same mechanics, make sure you do not buy the auto model of Citroen or the electronic rear suspension both units are very expensive to repair .

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 21:08
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

How do we know which ones have the electronic rear suspension?

Thanks!

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 20:54
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - TR7
Diesel will be a false economy if you are doing low mileage. There is a thread on this engine in technical. Turbo dpf problems money pit.
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Sat 5 Apr 2014 21:10
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Thanks,

The cash for the car is coming from my mother in law! So the extra cost of a diesel is no problem for me - just want one that will be very cheap to run once it's paid for!

So do these cars share an engine?

Oh - and could you point me to the thread?

Thanks again!

Edited by samuelodog on 05/04/2014 at 21:11

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 21:23
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - elekie&a/c doctor

Both cars have the same engine,also found in some Peugeot models.The engines are good,unfortunately the problems relate to the parts bolted to it.Cheap to run?unlikely.Go for a C max petrol.

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 22:08
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

How about the 2.0 engine?

I really don't want a car that does 30 mpg. Had one before, had to put petrol in every few days and it just burned a hole in my pocket. I have a diesel citroen C3 - 1.5 hdi. It's brilliant. Does 70 mpg. Fill up once every couple of weeks.

Seems that the 1.6 gets turbo problems if the oil is not changed on time.

Anyone else know about the reliability of the 1.6? is it reall that bad?

Thanks

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Sat 5 Apr 2014 23:35
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - daveyK_UK

Current shape Citroen Berlingo multi space or equivelent Peugeot partner tepee.

Fiat Doblo is also worth considering

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 10:10
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Fiat Doblo has a 1.3

This any good?

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 11:14
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Bromptonaut

Current shape Citroen Berlingo multi space or equivelent Peugeot partner tepee.

I'd second that.

On diesel/petrol issue you need to unpick two issues.

First is that diesels tend to cost more than petrols and you struggle to recoup the difference at low annual miles. If however you take the arguments beyond economic and into preferring the 'feel' etc of the diesel then you're just paying a premium for something you want, same as aircon or enhanced trim.

Secondly care is needed with modern diesels at low mileage if it's comprised entirely of short runs. Particle filters don't like this as they need a longer run with engine at full temperature in order to re-generate. Provided you get a 30min plus run at 50-70 every fortnight or so it should be OK.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 19:41
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - mss1tw

The cash for the car is coming from my mother in law! So the extra cost of a diesel is no problem for me - just want one that will be very cheap to run once it's paid for!

Is she going to pay for any repairs needed as well then?

Cheap to run goes further than what you pay at the pumps and MPG.

Listen to people's advice.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 00:13
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Avant

The Ford 2.0 TDCI should be OK but if you really want reliability you should consider the Toyota Verso 2.0 diesel. It's a good engine and livelier than road test reports make out.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 10:05
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Had a look at the toyota - mpg is too low.

What do you think of the 1.8 l ford engine?

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 01:39
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - BigJohnD

Having owned both the Ford and Citroen (both manual transmissions), the Ford was off the road more the C4. The Ford's electrics were never fully resolved (locking system, wipers, radio interference, mirror controls, &c.) and there was a clutch failure around 50,000K miles. The Citroen's problems were petty (poorly fitting trim, jammed rear seats, &c.) but never required time off the road, being sorted during routine services.

Picasso Exclusives have the pneumatic susupension (and no room for a spare wheel). Conversion to coil springs is far cheaper than replacing the air bags and compressor. See here.

Avoid the EGS gearbox. While the majority are fine, any repair is very expensive.

You need to do more than about 15,000 miles/year for the diesel pay off.

The 1.6HDi engine is fine but it MUST have the oil changed every 12,500 miles or more often. The sump is small (under 4 litres) so the oil is hammered, and is used for lubricating the turbo.

The Ford has lower gearing which gives a faster 0-60 time, whereas the C4 will return better mpg.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 10:04
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

By C4 do you mean the xsara picasso? Or the c4 picasso?

Are they the same thing?

The prob with the 1.6 HDi is that I won't be able to tell how well it was looked after, e.g. if there is some kind of residual build up somewhere.

The Ford Focus C-Max also does a 1.8 Litre engine.

What's this like?

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 11:08
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - elekie&a/c doctor

The 1.8 is the lynx engine fitted to various models including the Focus and Mondeo variants.It is based on the engine you would find in an old Escort.In its favour,it is only an 8 valve design,and durable due to its old fashioned design.The Toyota diesel engines are not as reliable as you may think.hth

Edited by elekie&a/c doctor on 06/04/2014 at 11:09

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 11:42
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - wugbug

The 1.8 is the lynx engine fitted to various models including the Focus and Mondeo variants.It is based on the engine you would find in an old Escort.In its favour,it is only an 8 valve design,and durable due to its old fashioned design.The Toyota diesel engines are not as reliable as you may think.hth

Only the Toyota 2.2 dcat is a pig of an engine. The 1.4 and the 2.0 d4d are fine, people just don't like them as they are gruff at times and not as refined as a 1.6 hdi, but I know what I'd spend my money on every time . Having had both Toyota petrol and diesels of various capacities I can confidently say the 1ad 2.0 d4d the is best of the lot. My 2.0 has over 100k and pulls like a train, and completes a 100 mile commute without fuss, it's ultra reliable and easily returns 50 mpg. Just look after them and it will look after you. Plus no DPF to worry about at the at you are looking at either.
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Sun 6 Apr 2014 11:31
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - I'm a Pane

>The Ford Focus C-Max also does a 1.8 Litre engine.

>What's this like?

Had this engine in a Focus a few years ago and it was to be honest a bit of a dog. Noisy, unrefined and not that economical. Also very easy to stall as it didn't seem to like pulling away unless the revs were at least 1800. But mechanically simple and probably therefore more reliable?

As I work for Citroen now I'm biased, but there's probably very little to choose between them at this sort of age/mileage. Usual advise - go on condition and history rather than which one. Although if you really want 3 proper sized seats across the back then the Citroen wins.

Edited by I'm a Pane on 06/04/2014 at 11:33

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 16:23
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - BigJohnD

By C4 do you mean the xsara picasso? Or the c4 picasso?

Are they the same thing?

No, but production of the RHD Xsara Pic ceased almost 5 years ago. It uses the old TU engine, not the latest DV6 1.6 diesel.

Edited by BigJohnD on 06/04/2014 at 16:24

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 17:33
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Bromptonaut

No, but production of the RHD Xsara Pic ceased almost 5 years ago. It uses the old TU engine, not the latest DV6 1.6 diesel.

Apart from the TUD, and IDI unit of 1.4/1.5 used in the AX/Saxo and also the Rover Metro, the TU Series engines were all petrol.

At introduction the Xsara Picasso used the first generation 2.0 HDi (DW series) first seen in the Xantia. These were either 90 or 100 PS though I'm not sure latter was used in Xsara derivatives. Good reliable engines with caveat that only suitably skilled techs with right diagnostic kit should be let loose on them.

Facelift versions, 05 onwards, were fitted with 1.6 diesels which so far as I can ascertian were the first of the DV series also used by Ford, Miniand others. Power outputs differ according to map and turbo type.

Some early versions had seriuos turbo problems which recurred unless ALL appropriate parts/processes addressing the original design weakness were implemented. I think there's information on the net covering the engine numbers affected but I'd be wary of these whether in Picasso, Berlingo or anything else.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 13:15
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Thanks for this.

And thanks everybody else.

So I am now very confused and have narrowed it down to the following:

(All diesels - sos, can't do petrol. Will do enough miles and speed every week to keep engine going, can't afford a gas guzzling petrol.)

Fiat Doblo 1.3 - av. 54.3 - good mpg, but now have heard horror stories of 1.3 engine

Doblo 1.9 - good engine, but av. 48.7 mpg - but near top of my list now.*

vs

Focus c-max - 1.6 - av 58 mpg, but horror story engine.

Focus c-max - 1.8 - 53.3 mpg - good engine? - near top of my list now.*

Focus c-max 2.0 - good engine but only av. 48.7 mpg

vs

Citroen xsara picasso - 1.6 (good mpg, horror story engine)

Citroen xsara picasso - 2.0 - good engine? - av 51.4 mpg - near top of my list. *

Any ideas, any votes? Any to strictly avoid? Any a wise buy?!

Thanks!!

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 14:50
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - tim10597
We've owned 2 CMAX 2.0tdci since 2004. The first was a manual gearbox and returned around 44 mpg in mixed use, the one we have now is a 2008 powershift version which does about 42mpg. I would certainly have another of these, both have been very good, the second has had no problems at all, the first had some electrical software gremlins when first new and also needed a replacement alternator.

I do think you need to be careful in expecting the manufacturer quoted mpg figures to be what you get in real life. I'd be amazed if you do.

Also, you say you need to accommodate 3 kids in the back, but not whether any of those are in car seats. If they are, then you may struggle to get 3 in - you definitely need to check it out before you buy.

Both our CMAXs have been very good and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.
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Sun 6 Apr 2014 14:59
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Chris79

I have the 1.3 cdti in a corsa 07 plate. I ve done 50k in two and a bit years and touch wood it hasnt cost me anything other than servicing. Mpg is always around the 50 mark (brim to brim calculation) and it runs noticably better on shell v power.

Horrible engine to drive though. Gutless and unrefined by modern standards. In a car like a xsara you would be better off with a larger engine.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 18:07
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Ok.

Narrowed it down to:

Fiat Doblo - 1.9 , official mpg - 49, real mpg - 49

Ford Focus C Max 1.8, official mpg - 53.3, real mpg - 47.3

Citroen xsara picasso - 2.0 - official mpg - 51.4, real mpg - ?

This is going on my £4500 budget, need of good mpg and reliability.

I have discounted the 1.6 tdci ford/citroens and 1.3 Fiat due to unreliable engines and the fact that I will be buying a c.60,000 mile beast, 7-8 yrs old and will not be able to tell how well they have been looked after.

The 2.0s are all too gas hungry.

Anyone guide me through these three? Anybody know real mpg of the citroen?

Many thanks... nearly there.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 19:33
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

Is the fiat 1.3 multijet engine really that bad?

Can't seem to find details on it anywhere?

What's wrong with it?

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 21:13
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Chris79
Is it that bad??

Well on the basis that (touch wood) it has given me 50k worth of trouble free motoring - no!

It is economical and because mine is a six speed gearbox it is only doing just over 2 k revs at 70 so it's not to laboured on motorways where it spends most of its time.

Why is it unrefined?, because I find that getting upto to motorway speeds always leaves me feeling knackered. It doesn't gave much in the way of go and as a consequence progress is always slow and feels it. We also have a 2l diesel audi which I realise is an unfair comparison but in that it picks up in any gear at any speed and as a result driving it in every day conditions is far easier.

When I drive either a Kia 1.6crdi or any 1.6 hdi engine from the Psa stable you realise how noisy the cdti is.

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 21:27
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - samuelodog

I would be buying 60,000 mls plus.

It's just I have been warned about this engine, but can't find many details about potential problems.

Thinking the 1.8 ford focus c max is the way to go. It doesnt have a dpf, which is a plus. I have sacrificed a little mpg for reliability. And the ford is supposed to be safer than the fiat.

What kind of mpg do you get with the 1.3 multijet?

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Sun 6 Apr 2014 22:25
Ford C-MAX - Buying first MPV Citroen or Ford? - Chris79
The worst I have seen is 48.9 and the best is 56.0mpg
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